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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:He won a municipal election in a town that hasn't elected a Republican for mayor since Nixon. And yet the area went evenly for Trump and Clinton, according to him. Clearly something is wrong with that picture.
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Feb 14, 2017 19:57
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Lightning Knight posted:And yet the area went evenly for Trump and Clinton, according to him. Clearly something is wrong with that picture. You can't really compare municipal elections to national election results.
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Feb 14, 2017 19:58
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Also slay this stupid loving "Brocialism" meme or progressives are never going to gain any traction.
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Feb 14, 2017 19:59
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:If you're asking me should we dial back the racial and social justice plank of the platform to appease white voters with lies about stuff, then no. We should be honest and straight forward with them. Again, not the question I asked. My question was "Do you think Obama could have won in 2008 or 2012 without winning a share of those racist white rust belters?" I'm not trying to play gotcha here or anything I'm just trying to figure out what you're actually arguing.
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Feb 14, 2017 20:00
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:You can't really compare municipal elections to national election results. Maybe not, but the messaging is resonating with him as the messenger. Like I don't think he can or should become DNC chair realistically but he seems like he knows what he's talking about and has a good message for both progressives and conservative Democrats.
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Feb 14, 2017 20:00
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:They were given a positive economic message No they weren't Chanting "Read my website" and nothing else is not a positive economic message, it's "sell yourselves the vision it is my loving job to sell"
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Feb 14, 2017 20:02
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Brainiac Five posted:I agree that as many people as possible ought to have the most effective means of autoselfdefense available. The disparity in autoselfdefense rates between men and women is attributable almost entirely to women having disproportionately less access to effective means. maybe make socialized medicine and psychiatry a thing so people can both arm themselves and not be driven to suicide by a system that prioritizes profit over what's best for people?
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Feb 14, 2017 20:03
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Sapozhnik posted:Also slay this stupid loving "Brocialism" meme or progressives are never going to gain any traction. Brocialist/brogressives are basically like the concept of Tumblr SJWs, they exist as a loud minority on the internet but have no meaningful impact on actual politics. The real political battle in the party proper is on whether or not the party wants to advocate for anti-immigration and/or tariffs to appeal to the Rust Belt.
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Feb 14, 2017 20:03
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^^^ Eh, they did seem to have a non-negligible presence among Sanders supporters (like maybe 10-15% or so, which - while still obviously a minority - isn't completely meaningless).BI NOW GAY LATER posted:What I chaffe at is this idea what we stopped talking to working class whites, or that we stopped having them in mind with our policies. We've mostly stopped honestly talking to working class people period, not just whites and not just rural people.
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Feb 14, 2017 20:05
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Sapozhnik posted:No they weren't You know this isn't what happened, right? We proposed, and talked about, giving free education, universal child care, etc etc. They chose not to listen. They chose to accept a racist, nazi rear end in a top hat who told them it was all the Immigrants and Muslims taking their jobs away. You can pretend, all you want that white people weren't given a choice; but they were; and when given that choice they choose the person who told them he was going to elevate them above "those people." Helsing posted:Again, not the question I asked. My question was "Do you think Obama could have won in 2008 or 2012 without winning a share of those racist white rust belters?" I think Obama explicitly went out of his way to not talk about racial issues and didn't define his campaign in explicit terms of Racial Justice, but his opponents didn't define it that way either.
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Feb 14, 2017 20:08
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:White Working Class have never stopped being appealed to, Yes they were. Around the 90s Democrats made a conscious decision to abandon labor in favor of the professional classes. The assumption was that labor would have nowhere to go so they could get away with just throwing them scraps while simultaneously undermining them with things like NAFTA. This strategy worked for a time but is finally coming home to roost now that Trump is offering an alternative trade vision. It's nowhere near as simple as "they're entitled racists"
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Feb 14, 2017 20:08
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Sapozhnik posted:Also slay this stupid loving "Brocialism" meme or progressives are never going to gain any traction. Do you mean where Centrists claim everyone to the left of them is racist and sexist?
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Feb 14, 2017 20:08
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Ytlaya posted:^^^ Eh, they did seem to have a non-negligible presence among Sanders supporters (like maybe 10-15% or so, which - while still obviously a minority - isn't completely meaningless). We haven't. We maybe stopped feeding them lies about coal and manufacturing, but we didn't stop talking to them about their issues. readingatwork posted:Yes they were. Around the 90s Democrats made a conscious decision to abandon labor in favor of the professional classes. The assumption was that labor would have nowhere to go so they could get away with just throwing them scraps while simultaneously undermining them with things like NAFTA. This strategy worked for a time but is finally coming home to roost now that Trump is offering an alternative trade vision. It's nowhere near as simple as "they're entitled racists" That's not what happened. Organized labor stopped supporting Dems en bloc almost simultaneously with Dems shifting to the left on immigration issues and with unions being gutted by Republican assholes with Right to Work Propaganda. By the way the strongest labor unions (CWU and SEIU) are still big Dem orgs and we talk about their issues constantly. BI NOW GAY LATER fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Feb 14, 2017 |
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Feb 14, 2017 20:09
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:I didn't write him off entirely. I wrote off that specific idea entirely. Oh I see, well that sounds reasonable. "BI NOW GAY LATER" posted:he can gently caress right on off That's an interesting way to word it. I'm really interested in your examples of successful democrats in a red state that succeed on their platform of not listening to anyone's concern about gun rights.
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Feb 14, 2017 20:11
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:
You don't think McCain and Romney used racist dog whistles? Really? Anyway, you still haven't offered a straight answer to my question. I'm not going to keep hectoring you for one but I find it really weird you can't or won't answer my directly. Again, this isn't a trap, I just literally cannot tell what you're arguing and you're weirdly evasive about clarifying yourself.
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Feb 14, 2017 20:12
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readingatwork posted:Yes they were. Around the 90s Democrats made a conscious decision to abandon labor in favor of the professional classes. The assumption was that labor would have nowhere to go so they could get away with just throwing them scraps while simultaneously undermining them with things like NAFTA. This strategy worked for a time but is finally coming home to roost now that Trump is offering an alternative trade vision. It's nowhere near as simple as "they're entitled racists" This continues to only be the second half of the story. The first half was the part where the Republicans broke the New Deal coalition by drawing middle class blue collar white voters with opposition to desegregation and then killed their unions.
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Feb 14, 2017 20:13
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:You know this isn't what happened, right? We proposed, and talked about, giving free education, universal child care, etc etc. They chose not to listen. They chose to accept a racist, nazi rear end in a top hat who told them it was all the Immigrants and Muslims taking their jobs away. You can pretend, all you want that white people weren't given a choice; but they were; and when given that choice they choose the person who told them he was going to elevate them above "those people." It was. The Democrat campaign were so convinced that the entire election was a formality that they didn't even grace Michigan with their presence. Instead they did dumb poo poo like chasing the dream of a blue Texas. Which on election day was actually being talked about as if it was up for grabs right up until the upsets started rolling in and the color drained from everybody's face as they realized what was happening. The entire election was treated, openly, like an annoying formality by the Dem establishment. I can't think of many better ways to demonstrate your naked contempt for your base than that.
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Feb 14, 2017 20:14
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Fiction posted:maybe make socialized medicine and psychiatry a thing so people can both arm themselves and not be driven to suicide by a system that prioritizes profit over what's best for people? That's neoliberalism, not populism, you're spouting there. Claiming there's such a thing as "what's best for people" is politicizing politics, whether you're using it as a means to eliminate people's right to autoselfdefense or banning smoking, another neoliberal crime true leftists must oppose.
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Feb 14, 2017 20:15
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Helsing posted:You don't think McCain and Romney used racist dog whistles? Really? They made it subtext, not text. What are you trying to ask me? Do I think Obama could have won without a bunch of racist whites in Wisconsin, Michigan , Ohio and Pennsylvania? Yes. Hillary drat near did. Sapozhnik posted:It was. The Democrat campaign were so convinced that the entire election was a formality that they didn't even grace Michigan with their presence. Instead they did dumb poo poo like chasing the dream of a blue Texas. Which on election day was actually being talked about as if it was up for grabs right up until the upsets started rolling in and the color drained from everybody's face as they realized what was happening. "He's a Goddman Nazi" should actually have been sufficient; but you're conflating poo poo. If your argument is "well if only Hillary had shown up in Michigan," then fine. That's your argument. But if your argument is "but but we have left these poor working white people behind and don't have anything for them" then you're wrong. We offered them, in multiple speeches, ads, a whole convention really, a multiple, detailed plans that would have improved their lives and they chose to reject it infavor of Trump lying to them about how he was going to make them better than Those People Again. BI NOW GAY LATER fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Feb 14, 2017 |
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Feb 14, 2017 20:15
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Sapozhnik posted:It was. The Democrat campaign were so convinced that the entire election was a formality that they didn't even grace Michigan with their presence. Instead they did dumb poo poo like chasing the dream of a blue Texas. Which on election day was actually being talked about as if it was up for grabs right up until the upsets started rolling in and the color drained from everybody's face as they realized what was happening. This is more or less true. The desire to try and expand the map is a good idea in theory, but they gambled on an important election and got burned and we shouldn't make the same mistake again.
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Feb 14, 2017 20:18
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A little bird with bad hair is whispering in my ear that not campaigning in Michigan and some other states much probably didn't matter
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Feb 14, 2017 20:20
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Brainiac Five posted:That's neoliberalism, not populism, you're spouting there. Claiming there's such a thing as "what's best for people" is politicizing politics, whether you're using it as a means to eliminate people's right to autoselfdefense or banning smoking, another neoliberal crime true leftists must oppose. do you base all of your political positions on your staunch refusal to seek therapy?
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Feb 14, 2017 20:20
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Anyway, I apologize for this derail. I am sure Peter Buttigeig is a great guy and I hope he does continue to be involved in the future of our party. I don't wholsesale think we should give up on people, but I do think we need to stop telling ourselves stories that are based in narratives about how we are afraid of "working people" when we're very clearly not.
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Feb 14, 2017 20:22
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:They made it subtext, not text. 2. Yeah the thing about that term, along with Socialist, Fascist, Commie is that people hear them used so much they don't care. my uncle is convinced that Obama is a socialist but actually will admit Obama was an alright president despite the socialist moniker he acribes to Obama. You have to [a;y to peoples interest and hearing the Nazi charge doesn't being that the charge is used on everyone now.
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Feb 14, 2017 20:22
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Chelb posted:A little bird with bad hair is whispering in my ear that not campaigning in Michigan and some other states much probably didn't matter This is really interesting and also very, very bad. 
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Feb 14, 2017 20:24
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Fiction posted:do you base all of your political positions on your staunch refusal to seek therapy? Hahaha, but seriously, if we insist that it's wrong to ever try to convince people of something and politicians should have no beliefs of their own, why does that apply to guns and not the noble and ancient practice of autoselfdefense? Is it because "populism" is an abject act of cowardice for when you have a love of gently loving a surplus Mosin-Nagant but are unwilling to directly defend that love and so must make it via appealing to the popularity of stuffing your genitals in a Remington and calling it self-defense? Or is it because someone else told you you should say these things and you, little toucan that you are, eagerly echoed? The world wonders.
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Feb 14, 2017 20:25
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Chelb posted:A little bird with bad hair is whispering in my ear that not campaigning in Michigan and some other states much probably didn't matter Yeah, I am actually reading through it and I don't think he is making essentially great points to back up that headline. It did matter, it just wasn't the only factor. The the whole issue of racial politics in essence is pissed off working class whites, and if or was there is any way to reach them. If anything she needed to be worried (as future candidate hopefully are) about populist rhetoric taking hold of the working class voters. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Feb 14, 2017 |
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Feb 14, 2017 20:26
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Lightning Knight posted:This is really interesting and also very, very bad. Indeed  Guess I stand corrected. gently caress. So now what?
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Feb 14, 2017 20:32
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Sapozhnik posted:Indeed I mean, I live in Wisconsin. I straight up don't think this state is recoverable. Or at least, any Democratic recovery would be a much more conservative and lovely set of Dems than anybody here would likely appreciate. But we probably have to try anyway because we need to win.
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Feb 14, 2017 20:35
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Chelb posted:A little bird with bad hair is whispering in my ear that not campaigning in Michigan and some other states much probably didn't matter Yeah I think we from now on should rely on grassroots not the data driven cucks. There are a lot of racist shits in the states. There is also a lot of badly ran but entrenched democratic parties that have no desire to turn their states around. Purge the parties of the useless centrists and organize. Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Feb 14, 2017 |
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Feb 14, 2017 20:38
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Crowsbeak posted:Yeah I think we from now on should rely on grassroots not the data driven cucks. Can we never use that word again?
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Feb 14, 2017 20:40
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Can we never use that word again? I would prefer that we make it so when you put in centrist it says cuck and when you put in cuck it says centrist.
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Feb 14, 2017 20:42
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Crowsbeak posted:Yeah I think we from now on should rely on grassroots not the data driven cucks. There are a lot of racist shits in the states. There is also a lot of badly ran but entrenched democratic parties that have no desire to turn their states around. Purge the parties of the useless centrists and organize. The triumph of the will, eh?
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Feb 14, 2017 20:44
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Ardennes posted:Yeah, I am actually reading through it and I don't think he is making essentially great points beyond Trump also needed Pennsylvania. I'm not sure what's so unconvincing about drawing comparisons between states that clinton (or trump) campaigned in heavily but still lost, or pointing to earlier presidential elections where ground game seemed less important than other factors (c.f. 2012), but okay. I used to think the ultimate problem lied in fatal ground-game based mistakes too, but eventually that reasoning falls apart on a few levels. We wouldn't have heard about Hillary's ground game if she had won, so a conversation like this is in a sense biased by the victor; A ton of people, me included, thought she had a good ground game, with ample funds, a ton more field offices, and favorable polling for most of the campaign; demographics explain political shifts much better than candidate campaigning does. Anyway, sorry for adding to the derail. I like all 3 of the notable candidates offered for the DNC chair and will not be unhappy regardless of the choice.
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Feb 14, 2017 20:45
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Crowsbeak posted:I would prefer that we make it so when you put in centrist it says cuck and when you put in cuck it says centrist. Could you be worse?
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Feb 14, 2017 20:46
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There are no single issue voters in favor of new jersey level gun regulations but the national party seems to believe that even now
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Feb 14, 2017 20:47
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Fiction posted:There are no single issue voters in favor of new jersey level gun regulations but the national party seems to believe that even now Do you have a particular favorite among your guns, one that receives extra Cosmoline lube?
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Feb 14, 2017 20:49
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Chelb posted:I'm not sure what's so unconvincing about drawing comparisons between states that clinton (or trump) campaigned in heavily but still lost, or pointing to earlier presidential elections where ground game seemed less important than other factors (c.f. 2012), but okay. I'd say it's more that Dems have surrendered the ground in those states for eight years is what's happening. Just look at how badly they have done despite facing horrible republican governors in most cases. Also consider that in Michigan and Ohio you had huge setbacks in referendums for the GOP. The people there want good governance but the Dem parties in those states are controlled by incompetent idiots. Purge them.
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Feb 14, 2017 20:50
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I also really don't know about the argument that the Dems have lost or are losing working class voters. The two lowest income brackets in the U.S. ($30,000 - $50,000) preferred Hillary. Incidentally, those brackets also have larger proportions of minorities and disadvantaged groups. It's the middle class and wealthier that supported Trump and the Republicans the strongest, and a primarily white middle/upper class at that.
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Feb 14, 2017 20:51
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Brainiac Five posted:Do you have a particular favorite among your guns, one that receives extra Cosmoline lube? I don't own any guns I just understand the concept of representative democracy
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Feb 14, 2017 20:54
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