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Crowsbeak posted:I would prefer that we make it so when you put in centrist it says cuck and when you put in cuck it says centrist. That still involves us using that stupid word so uh...  In exciting news, David Duke endorsed Ellison.
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Feb 14, 2017 20:54
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https://ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls/us-elections/how-groups-voted/how-groups-voted-2012/ https://ropercenter.cornell.edu/groups-voted-2016/ Here is some data to go with the discussion. Trump did better than Romney with Hispanics (29/27), working class/lower middle class voters (41/38) and union families (43/40). While they are not massive differences we are also talking about an election that was quite close. ' Hillary did noticeably worse with working class/lower middle class voters than Obama (53 versus 60). She did quite a bit better with upper middle class voters (47/43) while Trump did much worse (47/54). I would talk about education but those numbers aren't up yet.
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Feb 14, 2017 20:55
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Nevvy Z posted:That still involves us using that stupid word so uh... what
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Feb 14, 2017 20:56
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Nevvy Z posted:That still involves us using that stupid word so uh... Google only brings up poo poo sources for this, where did it come from? Also even if he did he can gently caress off, nobody cares what he thinks and lol if you think Ellison would accept the endorsement.
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Feb 14, 2017 20:58
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Nevvy Z posted:That still involves us using that stupid word so uh... It's an honest word. Also are we supposed to care that a neonazi endorsed anyone? Or is this just another example of centrists using every dirty trick and lie to prevent the Democratic Party from not being a pathetic party that only wins in wave elections? I am going to be so happy when there are no centrists left. Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Feb 14, 2017 |
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Feb 14, 2017 20:59
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Ardennes posted:https://ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls/us-elections/how-groups-voted/how-groups-voted-2012/ I disagree with those findings regarding hispanic voters. A more comprehensive analysis by Latino Decisions has the hispanic results at 79-18 for Hillary, and I'm more apt to accept these results given the depth that it goes into.
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Feb 14, 2017 21:05
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Fiction posted:I don't own any guns I just understand the concept of representative democracy The part where enthusiasm is more important than percentage of the electorate, the part where safeguarding against Breiviks and Roofs is via medicalizing racism, or the part where we treat depression by restricting people's rights?
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Feb 14, 2017 21:11
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Brainiac Five posted:The part where enthusiasm is more important than percentage of the electorate, the part where safeguarding against Breiviks and Roofs is via medicalizing racism, or the part where we treat depression by restricting people's rights? I like how you sent me a pm complaining that my posts were word salads.
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Feb 14, 2017 21:15
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Brainiac Five posted:The part where enthusiasm is more important than percentage of the electorate, the part where safeguarding against Breiviks and Roofs is via medicalizing racism, or the part where we treat depression by restricting people's rights? Not sure where you're getting 1 and 3 but you're just not making guns unavailable to the degree that you suggest, even with common-sense regulations which most of the nation supports. Just a few Dems have a serious hard-on for going beyond those to the point where they're disarming their own constituents.
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Feb 14, 2017 21:16
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Chelb posted:I disagree with those findings regarding hispanic voters. The question is if this something that changed between 2012/2016?
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Feb 14, 2017 21:16
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Ardennes posted:The question is if this something that changed between 2012/2016? Well, Election results in 2012 by Latino Decisions notes that the hispanic vote was 75% in favor of Obama. If anything, Hispanic and Latino/Latinx advocacy groups record more Hispanics breaking for the Dems in 2016! Chelb fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Feb 14, 2017 |
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Feb 14, 2017 21:18
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Ardennes posted:The question is if this something that changed between 2012/2016? There have always been conservative Hispanics. It's a dumb label that encompasses millions of diverse people, they're never going to act as a monolith.
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Feb 14, 2017 21:19
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Paracaidas posted:He's CoChair of the CPC and if the left's assumption holds true that 2018's gains will come from progressive enthusiasm... that'll put him in line for House Leadership, tenure be damned. What incompetence? You mean reading the election better then 99% of the people who post here? He's already in house leadership and has shown zero inclination to run for Governor so you're just pulling that out of your rear end (yet I'm the incompetent one???) You have no idea what you're talking about and if his only chance at the senate is if Franken doesn't run for a 3rd term (not happening) or the 1 in 25 chance that Klobuchar is on a ticket, you really have no point.
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Feb 14, 2017 21:20
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Fiction posted:Not sure where you're getting 1 and 3 but you're just not making guns unavailable to the degree that you suggest, even with common-sense regulations which most of the nation supports. Just a few Dems have a serious hard-on for going beyond those to the point where they're disarming their own constituents. You're saying that there aren't any single-issuer voters on the issue so we've got to cater to well-off suburbanites who collect every variant of the M1911 and desperately fantasize about killing people, and that we can solve the problem of guns making suicide more effective by increasing the number of people in treatment. Maybe you are ignorant on the latter issue?
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Feb 14, 2017 21:21
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mcmagic posted:What incompetence? You mean reading the election better then 99% of the people who post here? He's already in house leadership and has shown zero inclination to run for Governor so you're just pulling that out of your rear end (yet I'm the incompetent one???) You have no idea what you're talking about and if his only chance at the senate is if Franken doesn't run for a 3rd term (not happening) or the 1 in 25 chance that Klobuchar is on a ticket, you really have no point. I think Ellison would be a good choice for Governor or VP 2020, but I am fine with him as DNC chair.
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Feb 14, 2017 21:23
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Brainiac Five posted:You're saying that there aren't any single-issuer voters on the issue so we've got to cater to well-off suburbanites who collect every variant of the M1911 and desperately fantasize about killing people, and that we can solve the problem of guns making suicide more effective by increasing the number of people in treatment. Maybe you are ignorant on the latter issue? you don't have to cater to anybody except your base, and anybody not based in a firmly Blue State has a decent chance of owning a gun.
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Feb 14, 2017 21:25
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:I think Ellison would be a good choice for Governor or VP 2020, but I am fine with him as DNC chair. I hate him as VP. He doesn't bring any states along with him. Even a nothing like Tim Kaine won his home state... He hasn't shown any inclination to run for Governor.
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Feb 14, 2017 21:26
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:He's talking about talking to White People Rust Belters who saw loving children murdered in a school and don't care enough to demand change. In short, gently caress them? I am sure we can have a totally reasonable dialog on Gun Rights that doesn't amount to surrender on the issue. Forty percent of South Bend's population is non-white. That may not fit your narrative of red states being lily white hillbilly hellholes, but it's the truth. It's rather striking that you saw a call to dump narratives and demographics in favor of a focus on real people, and immediately responded by repeating a narrative and insulting a demographic. "Working-class whites" has been a popular buzzword in the Trump era, but the Rust Belt has a sizable black population. Let's not forget that lower-than-expected black turnout played a part in the election as well, and not just because of voter suppression. Buttigieg is right on when he says that the Dems need to be working with the base all the time, rather than going down the list of Dem demographics once every four years.
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Feb 14, 2017 21:28
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Fiction posted:you don't have to cater to anybody except your base, and anybody not based in a firmly Blue State has a decent chance of owning a gun. I see, you need to cater to racism and homophobia. Or you need to define your base so that it includes people opposed to any gun control no matter what. Intriguing, intriguing.
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Feb 14, 2017 21:30
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mcmagic posted:I hate him as VP. He doesn't bring any states along with him. Even a nothing like Tim Kaine won his home state... He hasn't shown any inclination to run for Governor. VP's don't bring states with them. That's incredibly confirmed. Main Paineframe posted:Forty percent of South Bend's population is non-white. That may not fit your narrative of red states being lily white hillbilly hellholes, but it's the truth. It's rather striking that you saw a call to dump narratives and demographics in favor of a focus on real people, and immediately responded by repeating a narrative and insulting a demographic. Because the people he's talking about are explicitly working class whites! Also dude, please tell me about my "narrative of red states being lily white hillbilly hellholes," since a) I live in one and b) working whites in rust belts aren't hillbillies. Like come the gently caress on.
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Feb 14, 2017 21:32
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Brainiac Five posted:I see, you need to cater to racism and homophobia. Or you need to define your base so that it includes people opposed to any gun control no matter what. Intriguing, intriguing. No? You need to define your base based on the message your party wants to have. If one of those messages isn't popular, though, like say "let's make it basically impossible to buy a gun," and you want to bend everyone's arm to have full deference to that message, then you'll be in trouble. Just like the Democrats are right now!
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Feb 14, 2017 21:34
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The population of Detroit, Inkster, Southfield, etc. is on average extremely concerned about big government taking their guns.
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Feb 14, 2017 21:34
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Fiction posted:No? You need to define your base based on the message your party wants to have. If one of those messages isn't popular, though, like say "let's make it basically impossible to buy a gun," and you want to bend everyone's arm to have full deference to that message, then you'll be in trouble. Just like the Democrats are right now! So this election was actually about gun control, and the majority of Americans own guns and love guns. Uh huh. You can take that foot out of your mouth any time now.
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Feb 14, 2017 21:36
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Fiction posted:No? You need to define your base based on the message your party wants to have. If one of those messages isn't popular, though, like say "let's make it basically impossible to buy a gun," and you want to bend everyone's arm to have full deference to that message, then you'll be in trouble. Just like the Democrats are right now! Gun cultists really overestimate how many people care about the issue. It's a small group.
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Feb 14, 2017 21:37
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mcmagic posted:Gun cultists really overestimate how many people care about the issue. It's a small group. Small but very loud and well-funded.
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Feb 14, 2017 21:37
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do you know what it means to not do something versus doing the opposite of it? i'm just commenting on how ferociously it seems you defend the party orthodoxy on something that's not high on the list of problems for most people right now.
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Feb 14, 2017 21:38
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https://twitter.com/aseitzwald/status/831602599535206401
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Feb 14, 2017 21:39
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Small but very loud and well-funded. Yes but they don't change anyone's votes. Fiction posted:do you know what it means to not do something versus doing the opposite of it? i'm just commenting on how ferociously it seems you defend the party orthodoxy on something that's not high on the list of problems for most people right now. There is nothing in the Democratic party's orthodoxy that is even a tiny impediment to legal gun ownership let along confiscation.
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Feb 14, 2017 21:39
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Because the people he's talking about are explicitly working class whites! Can you point to where he specifically said that he was talking only about white people, or is "explicitly" just the new "literally"?
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Feb 14, 2017 21:42
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Main Paineframe posted:Let's not forget that lower-than-expected black turnout played a part in the election as well, and not just because of voter suppression. I think an attitude like this runs the risk of discounting the chillingly effective efforts by the GOP to suppress minority turnout, particularly in states like Michigan, Florida, Wisconsin, and the Carolinas. 300,000 people lacked the voter ID required in Wisconsin and pushed by Scott Walker. North Carolina shuttered polling stations and made black people wait for several hours to vote. One in four Floridian black persons could not vote due to criminal record-based voter suppression. Multiple people have covered this. It's entirely fair to say that Republican efforts at disenfranchising the minority vote has been more effective than it's been in a long time, and all signs point to it getting worse. On the other hand, I'm not sure if there's much solid evidence regarding black people being more apathetic in 2016.
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Feb 14, 2017 21:42
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Brainiac Five posted:I see, you need to cater to racism and homophobia. Or you need to define your base so that it includes people opposed to any gun control no matter what. Intriguing, intriguing. Yes, gun control exists to disarm minorities and the working class.
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Feb 14, 2017 21:42
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mcmagic posted:Gun cultists really overestimate how many people care about the issue. It's a small group. this goes just as much for how many petty bourgeoisie city dwellers who fear guns more than anything else there are out there and how many congressional districts their vote affects actually this isn't even a gunchat issue you could replace the issue at hand with anything. the creeps at the DNC probably think means-tested, overly complicated financial benefits are a slam dunk issue for everyone in a similar fashion.
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Feb 14, 2017 21:42
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mcmagic posted:Yes but they don't change anyone's votes. I mean, there's a not insignificant set of voters in some areas that believe Dems want to take your guns; but they're not going to suddenly switch to Dems if we surrendered on gun control anyway because they live in bubble echo chambers created by Fox and think like, the Bowling Green Massacre was real.
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Feb 14, 2017 21:43
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Not only is Buttigieg almost certainly not going to be elected party chair, gun control is not part of the DNC chair race. Nobody is debating it, nobody has made any substantive statements about it, the DNC chair does not set any sort of gun control policy, and this whole derail kicked off because of less than one sentence in a broader statement that was about something else entirely.
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Feb 14, 2017 21:45
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Fiction posted:do you know what it means to not do something versus doing the opposite of it? i'm just commenting on how ferociously it seems you defend the party orthodoxy on something that's not high on the list of problems for most people right now. No you're not. You're lying about Democratic gun control policies, fetishizing firearms, and obsessing about hurting possible neoliberals but in an ineffectual way, like you couldn't just burn down your county Democratic office or something to get them urges out.
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Feb 14, 2017 21:49
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Brainiac Five posted:No you're not. You're lying about Democratic gun control policies, fetishizing firearms, and obsessing about hurting possible neoliberals but in an ineffectual way, like you couldn't just burn down your county Democratic office or something to get them urges out. i don't have or want to hurt any possible neoliberals on this. they lose their elections just fine on their own.
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Feb 14, 2017 21:52
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Brainiac Five posted:No you're not. You're lying about Democratic gun control policies, fetishizing firearms, and obsessing about hurting possible neoliberals but in an ineffectual way, like you couldn't just burn down your county Democratic office or something to get them urges out. I think you need to stop projecting.
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Feb 14, 2017 21:54
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Fiction posted:i don't have or want to hurt any possible neoliberals on this. they lose their elections just fine on their own. So you post for joy of hearing yourself talk? Not surprising.
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Feb 14, 2017 21:58
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Cease to Hope posted:Not only is Buttigieg almost certainly not going to be elected party chair, gun control is not part of the DNC chair race. Nobody is debating it, nobody has made any substantive statements about it, the DNC chair does not set any sort of gun control policy, and this whole derail kicked off because of less than one sentence in a broader statement that was about something else entirely. I apologized!
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Feb 14, 2017 22:00
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Ardennes posted:The question is if this something that changed between 2012/2016? Hillary ran a garbage campaign that shortchanged efforts to encourage Hispanic voters.
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Feb 14, 2017 22:04
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