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Ogmius815 posted:But that doesn't matter to the Bernout crew, not really. They aren't arguing in good faith. They want "their guy" to win because their guy lost last year and they want their pound of flesh as bloody vengeance. Plus compromise and pragmatism don't get them that sweet, sweet moral indignation high, which is the only reason why they're into politics. we want our guy to win because we're sick of your guys losing and getting fascists elected
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Feb 15, 2017 19:23
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Brainiac Five posted:Organized (white) labor abandoned the Democrats dogg. Wrong! Labor organization has long been a key component of racial justice campaigns and labor organizers were part of Jackson's Rainbow/PUSH coalition which the New Democrats took steps to squash by instituting structural changes to the Democratic Party to give big donors more sway than the grassroots.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:23
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Fiction posted:Wrong! Labor organization has long been a key component of racial justice campaigns and labor organizers were part of Jackson's Rainbow/PUSH coalition which the New Democrats took steps to squash by instituting structural changes to the Democratic Party to give big donors more sway than the grassroots. Labor organizations never abandoned the party. White union workers voted in people like Nixon and Reagan tho. That's the distinction. The workers, not the organizations, fell for the Southern Strategy.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:25
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paranoid randroid posted:the SEIU was heavily involved with the March for 15 so its kind of weird to accuse them of being collaborators just because they endorsed a different candidate I don't know how you can be this blind. Perez is a part of The Clinton Machine (bill and hillary....and Obummer), so if SEIU endorsed him that means they are a Counterrevolutionary Degenerate Organization betraying Comrade Sanders viva la revolution. Raskolnikov38 posted:we want our guy to win because we're sick of your guys losing and getting fascists elected Good sir! No don't slam the door. Do you have a moment to spare for your soul? Tell me, have you considered that Bernie Would Have Won? Ogmius815 fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Feb 15, 2017 |
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Feb 15, 2017 19:27
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Fiction posted:Wrong! Labor organization has long been a key component of racial justice campaigns and labor organizers were part of Jackson's Rainbow/PUSH coalition which the New Democrats took steps to squash by instituting structural changes to the Democratic Party to give big donors more sway than the grassroots. Dude, I'm talking about actual union voters and their voting habits, which shifted to white identity voting well before that occurred. Nonwhite organized labor and the Democratic party have consistently had a good relationship, one which BOBs and ultras gloss over because it's inauthentically proletarian.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:28
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i know you guys are just disingenuous idiots who need to resort to making poo poo up to justify your long-failing political ideas, but i'm not saying SEIU specifically has betrayed the working class. My only point is that there's been a calcifying of party and union structure which has paralyzed organizers' ability to affect political and economic change because our politicians are too busy kowtowing to whichever industry will kick them reelection money in 2018 and dragging their feet as much as possible on workers' rights.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:29
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Fiction posted:i know you guys are just disingenuous idiots who need to resort to making poo poo up to justify your long-failing political ideas, but i'm not saying SEIU specifically has betrayed the working class. My only point is that there's been a calcifying of party and union structure which has paralyzed organizers' ability to affect political and economic change because our politicians are too busy kowtowing to whichever industry will kick them reelection money in 2018 and dragging their feet as much as possible on workers' rights. "Kowtowing". Nice.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:30
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mommy the bad racists are saying that collaboration with capital to lower working standards and wages is a bad thing!!
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Feb 15, 2017 19:31
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Fiction posted:mommy the bad racists are saying that collaboration with capital to lower working standards and wages is a bad thing!! And now you're insisting that unions are conspiring to gently caress over workers while proudly admitting you're racist. Well, poo poo, I sure believe you have the best interests of racial and ethnic minorities in mind now.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:33
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Fiction posted:mommy the bad racists are saying that collaboration with capital to lower working standards and wages is a bad thing!! your mom was collaborating with capital last night if you catch my meaning heh heh hehhh
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Feb 15, 2017 19:33
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Brainiac Five posted:And now you're insisting that unions are conspiring to gently caress over workers while proudly admitting you're racist. Well, poo poo, I sure believe you have the best interests of racial and ethnic minorities in mind now. i'm talking about the politicians you breathlessly defend, dummy. they've been loving the workers since before the 90's by trying to out-Reagan Reagan and allowed the Overton window to shift all the way into fascism in the process.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:34
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Fiction posted:mommy the bad racists are saying that collaboration with capital to lower working standards and wages is a bad thing!! You just admitted to being bad and a racist, dude
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Feb 15, 2017 19:34
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im curious how yall maintain this level of mortally aggrieved outrage for so long. it must cause heartburn.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:34
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Calibanibal posted:You just admitted to being bad and a racist, dude effectronica insists i'm a racist because it's the only argument he has when faced with the bald reality that the democrats are enemies of workers.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:35
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Fiction posted:i'm talking about the politicians you breathlessly defend, dummy. they've been loving the workers since before the 90's by trying to out-Reagan Reagan and allowed the Overton window to shift all the way into fascism in the process. Racist, a conspiracy theorist, bad at communicating, and also delusional. You seem like a real winner, champ.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:35
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We saw this when defending Hillary was the thing. Fighting for single-payer was transformed in the broken brains of Democratic partisans into fighting for white supremacy because more black people voted for Clinton.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:36
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Main Paineframe posted:Where do you think unions came from in the first place? Organized labor wasn't created by the government - it was organized by the people, from the bottom up. The protections unions enjoyed in their heyday weren't generously given to them by the government - they were concessions extracted from the government after hard-fought battles, often physical as well as political. Sure, unions are facing challenges today as the protections they won back then are now being rolled back...but that's nothing compared to the challenges they faced back in labor's heyday, when not only did they lack those protections but the Supreme Court also said it would be unconstitutional to grant them those protections! Or, if the left is going to take the party over, I don't think electing and supporting centrists can be a part of the strategy to do that.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:36
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paranoid randroid posted:im curious how yall maintain this level of mortally aggrieved outrage for so long. it must cause heartburn. I recommend chamomile and a soothing night of not caring about which extremely competent human being is elected to a behind-the-scenes organizational role while a malicious orange sex criminal is paying russians to urinate on him
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Feb 15, 2017 19:37
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Kilroy posted:Let Nancy "We Are Capitalists, Period" Pelosi and her ilk have it. youve been clickbaited, dogg. watch the full response to that question.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:37
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Fiction posted:effectronica insists i'm a racist because it's the only argument he has when faced with the bald reality that the democrats are enemies of workers. I called you racist because you used racist terminology of describing extraordinarily submissive behavior as Chinese in nature, and then refused to accept any discipline or correction on the matter, in addition to shrieking about how reactionaries are better than liberals and accidentally saying unions are trying to gently caress over workers.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:38
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Brainiac Five posted:Racist, a conspiracy theorist, bad at communicating, and also delusional. You seem like a real winner, champ. "The Democratic Party attempted to position itself as more reasonably conservative to beat back Reaganism and failed" is a fact of history tho, not a conspiracy. People may disagree on why they did this, but they did do it.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:38
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Brainiac Five posted:and then refused to accept any discipline or correction on the matterd accidentally saying unions are trying to gently caress over workers. i won't be "disciplined" by your insane and unfounded extrapolation from my posts dude.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:39
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JeffersonClay posted:Perez isn't a centrist. The 2016 democratic platform is not centrist. The positions articulated by Perez and the 2016 platform are not electoral liabilities, and there's zero evidence democrats would benefit from shifting further left. Your "give me exactly what I want or I'll throw a tantrum" strategy got you nothing but Trump in 2016 and will get you exactly the same if you try it again.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:38
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Fat, lonely, notoriously insane on these forums, psychologically projecting, body odor ... you seem really cool fiction!
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Feb 15, 2017 19:40
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i swear, selectively edited video clips posted to twitter are the most effective anti-left disinformation tactic ive ever seen
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Feb 15, 2017 19:41
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Brainiac Five posted:"Kowtowing". shut the hell up jfc
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Feb 15, 2017 19:42
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Lightning Knight posted:"The Democratic Party attempted to position itself as more reasonably conservative to beat back Reaganism and failed" is a fact of history tho, not a conspiracy. "Fiction" presented the Democratic party as moving to the right of Reagan, not as moving rightwards generally. This is a common tactic for the 4chan-addled pseudoleftist- saying something idiotic for the boffo laffs, secure that anyone who's a real leftist like you will say nothing because their idea of leftism is derived from hazy memories of 1984.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:42
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Kilroy posted:Maybe the first step to doing that is to cease the endless attempts at conciliation with a Democratic party that clearly wants them to have no influence on the platform or the party but expects their votes anyway? You're right that unions came from bottom-up organization - and they are being systematic destroyed by Democrats arm-in-arm with Republicans, from the top down. Maybe leftists don't want to be a part of that anymore and maybe the election of Perez will be just another in a long list of clear indicators that the left has no actual place in the Democratic party. Let Nancy "We Are Capitalists, Period" Pelosi and her ilk have it. What I'm saying is that the left needs to start actively organizing, not voting third-party once every four years while smugly patting themselves on the back for doing their part to destroy capitalism. And although I say "needs to" in the present tense, it really needed to start doing that thirty years ago. The fact that the left stood around with their thumbs up their asses doing nothing for the last couple of decades while both parties collaborated to destroy them is exactly why I don't have any faith at all in the current progressive "revolution" - it's way too top-down. There's plenty of outrage on the bottom, but it steadfastly refuses to organize itself into something meaningful; it just sits around waiting for somebody to tell it what to do, just like the Tea Party did.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:43
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Brainiac Five posted:"Fiction" presented the Democratic party as moving to the right of Reagan, not as moving rightwards generally. This is a common tactic for the 4chan-addled pseudoleftist- saying something idiotic for the boffo laffs, secure that anyone who's a real leftist like you will say nothing because their idea of leftism is derived from hazy memories of 1984. I said they tried to move right on economics as close to Reagan as they could manage. They absolutely have tried to do that.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:44
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paranoid randroid posted:im curious how yall maintain this level of mortally aggrieved outrage for so long. it must cause heartburn. We learned it from you guys virtue signaling on blm and gay rights.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:46
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JeffersonClay posted:Perez isn't a centrist. The 2016 democratic platform is not centrist. The positions articulated by Perez and the 2016 platform are not electoral liabilities, and there's zero evidence democrats would benefit from shifting further left. Your "give me exactly what I want or I'll throw a tantrum" strategy got you nothing but Trump in 2016 and will get you exactly the same if you try it again. dems insistence on centrism at all costs got us trump paranoid randroid posted:i swear, selectively edited video clips posted to twitter are the most effective anti-left disinformation tactic ive ever seen what was wrong with his assertion? as far as I've seen, the cutoff only really has nancy pelosi laying out some flaws of capitalism, but no real solutions, which dude asked for. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR65ZhO6LGA
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Feb 15, 2017 19:47
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Crowsbeak posted:We learned it from you guys virtue signaling on blm and gay rights. whoop, "virtue signalling!" drink!
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Feb 15, 2017 19:47
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Leftists needed to start organizing 10000 years ago, the lazy troglodytes, and not just sit back smugly after bashing the tyrannical tribe leader with a rock every 5 years at the Gathering of the Great Skull Circle
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Feb 15, 2017 19:48
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Fiction posted:I said they tried to move right on economics as close to Reagan as they could manage. They absolutely have tried to do that. No you did not. You should stop posting until you can figure out how to say what you mean. I mean, your own argument is absurd on its face because it is unable to explain the continued existence of Social Security and Medicare, or that ADC transformed into TANF rather than dying altogether. It's transparently a case of pseudo-leftist lying, born out of a fear of truth, also manifested in repeated insistence that facts don't matter, etc. etc.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:48
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paranoid randroid posted:i swear, selectively edited video clips posted to twitter are the most effective anti-left disinformation tactic ive ever seen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR65ZhO6LGA&t=60s yeah, she does a great job of describing the problem she helped create but immediately shuts down any discussion of an alternative she is poo poo
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Feb 15, 2017 19:49
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Brainiac Five posted:No you did not. You should stop posting until you can figure out how to say what you mean. I mean, your own argument is absurd on its face because it is unable to explain the continued existence of Social Security and Medicare, or that ADC transformed into TANF rather than dying altogether. It's transparently a case of pseudo-leftist lying, born out of a fear of truth, also manifested in repeated insistence that facts don't matter, etc. etc. Oh yeah, the continued existence of any form of socialized benefits is definitely a conclusive sign that the Democrats won't tuck their tail between their legs and run from any attempt to help people that might imperil their donors' stock options.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:50
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Calibanibal posted:Leftists needed to start organizing 10000 years ago, the lazy troglodytes, and not just sit back smugly after bashing the tyrannical tribe leader with a rock every 5 years at the Gathering of the Great Skull Circle I realize this is a joke, but leftists should be organizing now for the elections in the coming cycle. Losing the DNC race, or any race, doesn't mean that all is lost, go home. For an ideological group that focuses on the common good of the left behind, we've developed bad habits on messiah worship and holding out for heroes.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:50
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Main Paineframe posted:Where do you think unions came from in the first place? Organized labor wasn't created by the government - it was organized by the people, from the bottom up. The protections unions enjoyed in their heyday weren't generously given to them by the government - they were concessions extracted from the government after hard-fought battles, often physical as well as political. Sure, unions are facing challenges today as the protections they won back then are now being rolled back...but that's nothing compared to the challenges they faced back in labor's heyday, when not only did they lack those protections but the Supreme Court also said it would be unconstitutional to grant them those protections! i'm well aware of the history of unions, the gilded age, and turn of the century politics but this is a good post that brings up some good points. in many ways, you're right about having to rebuild the institutions from the ground up without counting on help from above. but i think its just much more easier said than done. we are a long way away from the conditions that enabled the labor movement to gain any ground in the first place. not only have the pro-labor institutions been eroded, but there are also numerous institutions designed specifically to combat political movements from the left. however, hard is not impossible, nor does it mean we shouldn't try. i just think that it will require more than "just organize, dude." its a pretty interesting topic, really. so thank you for a smart response, and i agree that organization is key. there are many new, challenging impediments to organization today and it is important to understand the landscape before rushing in with suggestions about how we should all return to the times when workers were being murdered by pinkertons, hundreds of thousands would participate in strikes, and the jungle was opening everyone's eyes to the horrors of industrialization.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:50
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paranoid randroid posted:whoop, "virtue signalling!" drink! Thanks for teaching us so well.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:51
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Main Paineframe posted:What I'm saying is that the left needs to start actively organizing, not voting third-party once every four years while smugly patting themselves on the back for doing their part to destroy capitalism.  they should actively organize for third parties, not bother with the dems who clearly don't want them and would rather have some more republicans voting for them. tbh, until recently i thought the dems were still trying to fight for leftism, but this election woke me up to the fact that's not true, so I'm organizing now quote:And although I say "needs to" in the present tense, it really needed to start doing that thirty years ago. The fact that the left stood around with their thumbs up their asses doing nothing for the last couple of decades while both parties collaborated to destroy them is exactly why I don't have any faith at all in the current progressive "revolution" - it's way too top-down. There's plenty of outrage on the bottom, but it steadfastly refuses to organize itself into something meaningful; it just sits around waiting for somebody to tell it what to do, just like the Tea Party did. a lot of the organization i've seen has been from the bottom up. just because leftists would like a little top-down action to help them doesn't mean they're abandoning bottom-up efforts. hell, a lot of c-spammers got elected recently, and centrists were making GBS threads on them because they were elected to "unimportant positions" so I wish you guys would figure out which way you want us to organize.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:51
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