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I feel like there are two elements involved in the blue text. 1) It has to present a theory about the murder mystery and 2) It has to deny that a witch carried out whatever it is talking about. So Witches aren't real doesn't quite work, because it doesn't really address the murders at all, nor a specific element of the mystery. It's sort of like Beatrice can't just say Witches are real and be done with it due to the stalemate consideration. (Keeping in mind that she's trying to convince Battler that witches are real, not just tell him they are and that he has to believe it; the process of playing the game is meant to break down his disbelief, which can't be done by just declaring it. Also, she can't say it in red because it isn't true, but whatever.) In order to successfully deny witches, Battler has to demonstrate that a particular set of murders could have been carried out by human beings. He also has to not, like, sign a contract saying witches are real or whatever. I'm just not recommending that strategy, in general. Prof said he wasn't going to address any blue text that we wrote, but there's no reason we shouldn't state key elements of our theories in blue anyway, under the assumption that Beatrice will probably counter them later, if it's possible to do so. It's also more fun, I think, if we make them specific things. You're right that the rule specify that we can create multiple theories, though, which obviously would have to contradict each other if they're really going to be multiple. So I'll do a couple as well: The deaths that are about to happen in the conference resulted from a fight between the family members, using the guns, and Kinzo is a metaphor explaining this. The deaths that are about to happen in the conference resulted from Kinzo and Genji shooting into the crowd.
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Feb 15, 2017 14:29
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| # ? May 25, 2024 06:44 |
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 When 410 scratched the air with her finger, a golden bow appeared in empty space, and she pulled its string.  BGM: Golden Slaughterer Flesh and deep-red blood scattered around, leaving massive red spatter marks on the relatives' faces and the pure white tablecloth. Silence fell. Despite the massive number of deep-red spots left on the tablecloth, no one could understand why Natsuhi's head was half smashed, nor why she was hanging her head as though dozing while still sitting, and they watched on in silence. Those sitting on Natsuhi's right-hand side were silent for a relatively long time, but those sitting to her left were not. Because the people sitting on that side had been shown how her head had been smashed open like a watermelon or a pomegranate... and could even see inside her...  "Na... tsuhi..." "...One down. Natsuhi, is it? A luckless woman to the end. Next!" "00, Firing."After scratching the empty air in the same way and readying her bow, 00 fired as well.  This time, everyone managed to avoid freezing up mentally. They realized that a fearsome murder had started playing out right in front of them, just as Kinzo had said. And they realized that Kinzo would probably kill even more...!  ""Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh!!"" ""Kyaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh!!!""Shrill screams burst out. Even so, they didn't know what to do. So they could only keep screaming and flapping their wide-open mouths like goldfish...  "...F-Father, what do you think you're doing...?" "...Y-You fool!! Run now!!"As Eva asked Kinzo that in total shock, Hideyoshi, who had come to his senses faster than anyone else and risen to his feet, pulled at her arm from behind.  Just like the two before him, half of Hideyoshi's head was neatly smashed, and the right side of his head, which had happened to be facing that direction at the time, had been blown away with its contents exposed like a watermelon or a pomegranate. So, still holding Eva, Hideyoshi slumped backwards and fell down. Still held by her beloved husband, Eva fell over backwards with him.  "Dear...? Dear...?! Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeekkkk!!!"Eva screamed. It was only natural. The face she had been looking for... had been half lost, and the crushed skull, the mashed brains, and the crushed jaw all lay bare...  "45, Impact, it's a hit...!" "Spectacular. Fire again. Three more remain." "F-Father...!! Wh-Wh-Wh-Wh-What... what... is this supposed to be?!?!"When Krauss stood up forcefully and was about to rush Kinzo, 00 blocked him. With her slender-looking body, she held back Krauss with just the palm of her right hand. He still tried to resist and attack Kinzo, so 00 lifted Krauss by the nape of the neck and twisted into his Adam's apple with her thumb. It seemed to be very painful, and Krauss was overcome with agony.  "Gghh, oooooooohhhh...!!! Everyone, run...!! Get the police...! An ambulance...!! Quickly...!!" "Everyone, let's escape!! Escape!!"Nanjo's sharp words finally dissolved the spell that had been holding them down in their chairs. When Gohda and Kumasawa each tried to escape from the dining hall first, 410 moved in an instant and appeared there, blocking the way.   "Hiieeeeeeeeeehhhh!!" "H-Help meeeeeeeeeeeee!!" "Gohda-san, duck!!"Even though Gohda didn't understand, he crouched when he heard Kyrie's sharp voice. Then, a burst of air rushed above his head. Kyrie had taken a big swing with a chair to mow 410 down. But 410, still with a mocking expression, easily caught that widely swung chair with a single hand. "...Tch!" "What a scary woman nyeh. You really wanna go the same way as your husband that muuch?"From the cuff of her arm where she had caught the chair, something like a shining golden snake appeared, wrapped itself around the chair, and burst open. It was a fearsome power, like a vice. When Kyrie realized that the being in front of her, which looked like a girl, was actually something that surpassed Human knowledge and that a Human could not even begin to oppose, her head was filled with a fierce alarm bell that welled up from deep inside her... Genji, Shannon, and Kanon, all of the servants permitted to wear the One-Winged Eagle, continued to stand calmly at attention by the wall, even with a scene like this before their eyes, making them look very bizarre and eerie. For an instant, Kyrie thought that they'd managed to stay calm because they were with the enemy... and had been given a guarantee that they wouldn't be killed.  "G-Genji-san..." "45, Impact, it's a hit...!" "...Hohoh, Genji, how unfortunate. Rest in peace, my friend. *cackle*cackle*cackle* Your death will not be wasted. You will become one of the 13 keys essential to the resurrection of my beloved witch. Fuhhahahahahahahaha..."The half of Genji's expression that remained... was as indifferent as ever. He tilted, fell over, and sent a blood-red splatter out across the floor...  "...Genji-sama..." "...We're nothing more... than the witch's pieces. Nothing more, nothing more..."From the meek and frustrated... no, resigned expressions on Shannon and Kanon's faces, one couldn't sense any naive hopes that they'd be rescued. That's right. Kinzo was, in the truest sense, carrying out these murders at random. In the truest sense, he was killing like it was a game to see who would be saved and who would be killed. "Weeell then, whoo'll we go for next nyeh? Nihhihi!!"410 looked at Kyrie for a second. In that second, Kyrie was prepared for her own death. But when she readied her golden bow in midair, 410 was looking at someone else over Kyrie's shoulder. So, as imprudent as it was, Kyrie felt as though she had been saved... Again, an ugly, exploding, popping sound rang throughout the room. Who was it this time? When Kyrie turned to face the direction of the sound...  Of course, her face had been half smashed just like her husband's... 410 had mercilessly targeted Eva as she'd clung to her husband's corpse, sobbing.  "L-Let go of Nii-san...!! Let go of Nii-san...!! Just stop it, Father!! Just stop this brutality!!" "...Run away, Rosa... Ggh, ack...!"Rosa's objection didn't reach Kinzo as he continued to laugh loudly in the blood-spattered dining hall, and she wasn't able to lessen Krauss's pain at being lifted up by the nape of the neck by 00. So, Rosa had no choice but to use force. She lifted up a chair beside her and gave a warning.  "Father...!! Order her to let go of Nii-san! Just stop them from doing this!!" "I cannot. If that is what you desire, then prevent it using your own power. Cut a path through to your own fate with your own hands. You who have always hid behind the backs of others in fear, let me see you overcome your weakness one last time in your life...!! Fuhhahahahahahahahaha!!!" "...F-Father... Aaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh!!!" It was the greatest... and final... act of bravery and self-control in Rosa's life. What Kinzo had said might have been true. If she had grasped that courage much sooner, her life might have become more free, unrestrained by anyone else. Then, there was a bursting sound. The sound of Rosa's chair fiercely hitting Kinzo... could not have been this.  Still holding Krauss up with one hand, 00 had stuck her other hand out towards Rosa. The golden snake released from that arm... had constricted Rosa in a helix... and had smashed into her head.  "...Defensive Firing. I apologize for the discourtesy of shooting so close to you, sir." "I care not. Hmm, so this makes six people." "Yes, Lord Goldsmith. This makes six people."When she indifferently communicated that, 00 let go of Krauss, whom she had been lifting up this whole time.  "Indeed. So, the sacrifices of the first twilight were Eva, Rudolf, Rosa, Natsuhi, Hideyoshi, and Genji. *cackle*cackle*cackle*!!"It was a massacre that happened in an instant. The interior of the dining hall had been dirtied by blood spatter, and the six unlucky victims lay with their heads brutally exposed. In a way that was fitting for that abnormal space, Kinzo's abnormal laugh alone echoed out...  "Hahhahahahahaha, wahhahahahahahahahahahahaha!! The curtain has finally risen! The ceremony to revive Beatrice has begun...!!" "You lucky ones who have managed to escape the first twilight, allow me to introduce you to my friends. Arise, my friend! Ronove...!!"When Kinzo called Ronove's name, the demon butler showed himself in midair, bowing respectfully...  BGM: Happiness or Marionette "Pay it no mind. It takes a stimulant of this level to wake me from my daydream-like days. Allow me to introduce my friend, a reliable butler and one of the 72 Great Demons, Ronove." "I am pleased to make your acquaintance."Just who was he making that introduction to? Krauss and Kyrie, who were still down on their backsides, and Nanjo, Gohda and Kumasawa... could only look up at this middle-aged gentlemen they didn't know in shock... Only Shannon and Kanon seemed to recognize him, and they bowed deeply...  "...So, I wasn't able to greet Genji. I hope he was at least able to fulfill his purpose painlessly." "It was an instant death from a direct hit to the head...! He didn't have time to feel the pain." "Is that so? Very well." "Allow me to introduce another friend. Arise, my friend, Virgilia...!!"Once again, a silhouette of someone the relatives didn't know appeared from empty space. She appeared in a refined dress while making an elegant greeting.  "Allow me to introduce her too. This is both my friend and a reliable counselor, Virgilia. I desire to borrow your great power as the Witch of the Finite. Lend it to me!" "...Even if I tried to refuse, such a thing wouldn't be permitted for one subordinated by the power of your summonings. As you wish, Master." "...Still, what a fearsome fellow. To think he summoned three of the Chiester Sisters Corps, then me, and even Virgilia... Even though it's only in the area of summoning, to think that he surpasses Milady so thoroughly... How frightening. I can't help but shudder at the Ushiromiya blood." "In order to carry out Beatrice's resurrection ceremony, I shall give it my all as a summoner. This still isn't enough. In order to perfectly succeed in the ceremony this time, I shall summon more." "The Pendragon Memorial Troops and Ronove and Virgilia... I can still call more... With my magical power, I can still call many more...!!"  "Gaap...? You can even materialize her...?" "It probably means that the corrosion has advanced even more on this island. It had already proceeded far enough to materialize us. By now, we shouldn't be surprised no matter how great a demon he summons." "Has Rokkenjima already been completely sucked into a parallel world then? I hope he does not surrender." "...He learned a lot last time, correct? After all this time, he won't surrender over this much. Probably, I should say. Pu ku ku! Well then, shall we enjoy the stage we now stand upon? It seems the main character is the Master this time. Let us expect a script of a different flavor than Milady's." And with a sound like glass breaking, a new demon could be seen there. "...You did well to answer to my call. Gaap, one of the 72 Great Demons...!" BGM: Happy Maria! (instrumental) The literally devilish woman, wrapped in a venomous, ominous costume, looked at the scene which should have made her cover her eyes, and twisted her mouth in a grin... "To summon you for such a reason... would be like using a cashmere muffler to mop the floor." "It's been a long time, Gaap. To think that a Great Demon such as yourself has finally appeared on this island. Perhaps this island is finally submerging completely into fantasy." "This all-star cast is even more surprising than the gruesome state of the room. A full three Chiester Sisters, the Great Demon Ronove, the Great Witch Virgilia, and even me." "What's going on? Is this Pandemonium? Are you trying to start a concert from hell or something? I see, as a conductor for that, I couldn't think of anyone better than you, Goldsmith." "I will have your assistance as facilitator in the completion of my ceremony to resurrect Beatrice. You have no objections to my summoning contract, correct...?" "Of course not. There's no way I could resist the subordinating power of the legendary Great Summoner, Lord Goldsmith, who forced the famous Great Witch Beatrice to do his bidding." "...I'll assist you. Although I will of course ask a fitting price. So? What's my first job?" "Capture the cowards who made it through the first twilight. Fortunately, there are still seven here, aren't there? Nanjo, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, Kumasawa, Kyrie, and Krauss...!" "Hoh, if these seven are all offered as sacrifices, that's exactly 13 people! Until it's time for the second and later twilights to be carried out, throw them into the cage of sacrifices, *cackle*!!" "...A cashmere mop, huh? Understood."As Gaap shrugged her shoulders, she looked at Krauss, who was still down on his butt. She glared.  "Uu, waaaaahhh..." "One down."There was no hole in the floor. But it had certainly looked as though Krauss had been swallowed up by a hole and disappeared... "...!!"Searching for her next prey, Gaap's gaze crossed Kyrie's. She snapped her fingers. Kyrie jumped back as though repelled. Her instincts had been right. After all, in the place where she'd been until a second ago, a round, jet-black hole had appeared, the same kind that had swallowed up Krauss.  Even Kyrie had no way of eluding Gaap's capture. "Waahh...!!"When she snapped her fingers again, a shocked Nanjo was swallowed up by the floor and disappeared. When she did it again, 410 let out a short yell and jumped back. This time, a slightly larger pitfall had opened, swallowing both Shannon and Kanon, who had been standing in a line by the door. But because 410 had jumped away from the door, the way was no longer blocked. Instinctively aware that he would be next, Gohda dashed out through that door. Of course, Kumasawa also escaped with lightning speed, chasing after Gohda. As Gaap snapped her fingers over and over, round, jet-black pitfalls opened one after another behind them, chasing them. However, they did nothing but drive the recklessly fleeing pair away... and couldn't swallow them up. Gohda and Kumasawa had escaped in a matter of seconds...  "Don't worry, we are currently locking onto the escapee targets." "Data Link ready. Nihi! Shall we snipe?" "No, I cannot authorize that. They are precious sacrifices. Wait for the Master's authorization." "Great Lord Goldsmith...! We await your orders...!" "It is still too soon for the coming of the second twilight... is what the source of my magical power is whispering to me. It must not be now. Let them do as they please. It isn't as though they can escape from this island." "The source of the Master's magical power is noise and risk and tests of luck. Hohohoh, in other words, it means being fickle, it would seem." "*cackle* Perhaps you could also put it that way. Good work, Gaap. Let us steadily advance the ceremony from here on." "...Well then, that is that. Next are my grandchildren. I will test them to see whether they are qualified to become my successor. Let's see, how shall I test their qualifications? *cackle*cackle*...!!" "If you decide that they're qualified, do you intend to abandon Beato's resurrection?" "Of course. And despite that, I will test them. Hmph, perhaps a woman cannot understand that contradiction, nor my madness. *cackle*cackle*..." "...Well apparently, men are as weird as ever. I don't get the very concept of playing around with risk." "Oh my, and I thought you loved that sort of thing." "Of course. If a man whispers to me about dangerous risks and love, I go head over heels. But only if he's hot!" "Pu ku ku ku ku ku...!" "Be quiet. Try to refrain from whispering." "Hmph, truly noisy women. But at least they aren't boring. This is what makes summoning so pleasant. All of you will bear one side of the scales of noise and risk in my ceremony. That is the work I expect of you...!"Six brutally murdered corpses lay in the dining hall, and it was contaminated with red, gruesome decorations... It was now unimaginable that, until just a second ago, 13 humans had been arranged here in a well-organized manner. Kinzo lined up the famous demons and their subordinates, loudly declared the beginning of a night of overwhelming mass murders, and swore to himself that he would certainly revive Beatrice and open the door to the Golden Land...  BGM: Golden Slaughterer  "drat... Always killing in a grotesque way, as usual... Smashing half of their heads?! The bad taste you witches and demons have always pisses me off...!" "Smashing half of their heads... I see. So, she's realized that, in the games up until now, that's been the most ideal method of killing." "Ideal? How is such a grotesque way of killing ideal?!"  "You...! So, you're that new demon or whatever that just appeared... drat, so does this mean that the witch's corrosion continued, and there are now even more creeps wandering around...?!"...The more the witch's corrosion advances, the more Rokkenjima tilts towards the spirit world. That's why strange, insane people keep appearing one by one. This island has been closed off by the typhoon, so no Human can leave it, much less appear as a new character to increase their numbers. But the more the corrosion advances, the more witches and demons can appear, without limit. Increasing one by one. By now, there might be more demons than Humans among the characters appearing in this insane tale. Their numbers might be the thing that represents this mad corrosion. Yeah, I'm sure that's true. And the corrosion hasn't just affected the number of people, but apparently their fashion sense as well. If the corrosion advances any further and even more weird people appear, just what in the world will they be wearing? It's so scary I can't imagine... ...Aaaah, seriously, give me a break... Don't make these weird guys increase in number anymore...!!  "*cackle*cackle*cackle*! I can't do that, they'll keep increasing more and more!! I'll defile the foolish 'closed circle' rule Humans speak of, over and over again...!" "Welcome to my elegant game, Gaap!" "...It's been a long time, Riiche. Have you been well?" "...Why do I ask, you look great! Have you gotten younger? You look two or three hundred years younger than when I last saw you... Ah, I see."The demon Grandfather had summoned and introduced as Gaap... took a glance at me, and then grinned as though she'd figured something out on her own. That smile felt openly obscene.  "I guess she's Beato's friend. Which means she's gotta be a creep among creeps." "By the way, they were saying something about a closed circle or whatever, but what does that mean?" "Serial murder mystery novels that occur in places isolated from the outside world, like Rokkenjima is now, are sometimes called closed circles. Since such a place is isolated from the outside, it's like a circle that's closed. Therefore, in general, the characters and suspects are limited in number." "Having new suspect candidates added on one after another from outside the circle goes against the etiquette of mystery novels. In other words, the witch is probably trying to desecrate Humans and the mystery genre itself." "...You're Gretel? I see, you look like a wise kid. *giggle* I love kids like you. You taste so sweet and tantalizing." "Gross. Keep the jokes to your clothing." "It's <Devilish Pretty>'s newest, <Jack the Ripper, Christmas Blood>. Sorry for having a style that a country bumpkin from the Human world couldn't understand, okay?" "...At least we know it's well-ventilated. Why don't you add a gap to the head part as well? Let a little air into your brain." "Gaap is always sensitive to the fashions of the spirit world! But this year's fad truly is bold. I think I'll order one sometime...!" "For you, Riiche, I'd recommend Ali-Gray, <Alice and the Graveyard>. Let's go to 666 sometime soon to look at the clothes. You really should drop by the spirit world every now and then." "When this game is over, I'll be sure to do that. *cackle*cackle*!" "...Still, your two opponents are pretty cute, Riiche. It looks like this kid has figured out the meaning of the corpses with their heads half smashed. Know what that is, girl...?" "...Just now, she told me to remember the first game. What did that mean...?" "Just what it sounds like. Remember the first twilight of the very first game. When the adults' corpses were found in the gardening shed with the magic circle drawn on it. Remember?" Krauss, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, Shannon, and Gohda... All six of them had their heads pulverized and died... "At that time, there were two types of corpses. Some had their faces pulverized, and some had half of their faces pulverized." "That's right. The ones with their faces smashed were Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, and Gohda. The ones with the sides of their heads smashed were Krauss and Shannon. At the time, I fickly created two types of corpses, but I realized that the former, more atrocious type was actually disadvantageous for me." "...Disadvantageous for you...? I see. So that's what this is."That's right. The smashed faces might look atrocious. But that made it hard to confirm the identity of each person.  That alone was atrocious enough, but because half of their faces remained, it was easy to confirm their identities. But Dad and the other three were different. Because his face had been completely destroyed, even I, as his son, could only guess by inference that it had to be Dad because of his clothes and the like. In short, it remained vague until the end whether that really had been Dad's corpse. "If this reasoning battle had taken place during the first game as well, I would probably have claimed that, since the identities of Dad and the rests' bodies were impossible to confirm, there was a possibility that one was a fake corpse. After all, Beato didn't state anything in red during that game." "Well done. Correct. A faked death is one of the basics of the mystery genre. Even if you make a doctor examine the corpse, you can't trust the results if you suspect him of being the culprit's accomplice. Therefore, corpses that can't guarantee a death for certain are always disadvantageous for the witch's side." "You can suspect faked deaths for all corpses, hypothesizing that one or more of them is the culprit for the crimes that follow. It's a move Battler doesn't like, but it's the most elementary move to use against a witch." "Yeah, that's right. That's why Beato started using the red. With the red truth, she can carry out a perfect autopsy." "*cackle*cackle*! That's how it is. Normally, for the first twilight, I would use the red truth right away, confirming the deaths of these six. However, as you know, my battle strategy this time is the complete opposite of previous games, and I'll now use red truth starvation tactics...!" "Since you use it as a grounding from which to counterattack, I will not use the red easily. I'll make you come apart at the seams by using red in just a single place, as rarely as possible! In the end, it means I will permit all rants regarding your guesswork for all the closed rooms, and I only have to smash one of those once with the red truth." "Ihihi! Even though you've always teased me, once I start counterattacking, you now hole up back inside your shell. Quit kidding around." "At any rate, I do not want to use the red, I want to be stingy! I want to bully Battleeer!! But how could I guarantee a death for certain without using red? I worried and worried over it. Then, Gaap gave me an idea! It truly is a simple method. *cackle*cackle*!" "...I just pointed out something obvious and you hit upon the idea, Riiche. I simply said that you only had to create corpses whose identity could be distinguished and whose complete death would be understood." "Kuhhihihihi! In short, I put those two things together! The face, which is necessary to distinguish their identity, and the pulverization of the head, the vessel for the soul, which is the perfect symbol of death! When I put those two parts neatly together, aah, wonderful! I came up with the perfect answer of corpses with their heads half-smashed!" "I'll bet you love two-colored bread and two-colored ice cream. You're just like a greedy kid..." "...At any rate, even if half of their heads are smashed, we shouldn't assume that they're dead at this point in time." "I get it. Since Beato is trying to act tough and is refusing to say anything in red, we've gotta suspect everything. Of course, I'm definitely not gonna swallow the theory of magical mass murder by the sexy-assed Chiester babes." "*giggle* You sure have gotten prudent. If this were the first game, you would've swallowed everything." "*cackle*cackle*! I wouldn't have anything less from a rival. Since there is fortunately no red now, he can imagine whatever he wants and reason over and over again as he likes. At the very end, at the very sweetest spot, I'll cut him down at once with the red truth...!"
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Feb 15, 2017 14:32
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The profile page has been updated to account for the new wave of incomprehensible magical weirdos.
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Feb 15, 2017 14:40
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I'm sure there's a pro wrestling gif somewhere for what just happened with Rosa.
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Feb 15, 2017 15:02
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ProfessorProf posted:
I'm with you, Battler. Don't we have enough characters already? I hope that this being the end of the question episodes means that we don't get any more. (Now that I've said this, of course, we'll have twenty additional ones by the end of the episode.) Okay, so, it probably wasn't Genji helping Kinzo shoot people, but we're still well in the realm of things that can be done with guns and maybe a hammer by anybody at the conference. And seriously, a demon that can't even catch an extremely elderly woman? That right there would convince me the demon is fake regardless of anything else that's happened. I guess we'll have to see if the two escapees hook up with the kids, and if so, what they say to them. Edit: Incidentally, for anyone who's curious, Gaap is another one from the Goetia, although he's generally held to be male, rule between twenty and twenty-five legions, promote fertility, and carry men and objects from one nation to another (which I assume is where the teleportation comes in). His seal looks like this:  He also teaches philosophy. I'm having a heck of a time imagining any of my professors from back in school dressing like that. idonotlikepeas fucked around with this message at 15:32 on Feb 15, 2017 |
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Feb 15, 2017 15:21
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God, they're multiplying again. Anime: the worst kind of invasion. Luckily, as the murders grow ever more crazy and the suspects become further muddied, we have Battler to remind us of the truly great problem here:ProfessorProf posted:Yeah, I'm sure that's true. And the corrosion hasn't just affected the number of people, but apparently their fashion sense as well. If the corrosion advances any further and even more weird people appear, just what in the world will they be wearing? It's so scary I can't imagine... Oh, Battler. 
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Feb 15, 2017 15:56
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Qrr posted:At least one of <18 names> was dead before the events on Rokkenjima. Qrr posted:At least one of <18 names> was Beatrice Combine the statements No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game and The envelope [Beatrice] handed over to Maria and the one Rose Opened are the same. This means she's definitely on the island, and she's a human.
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Feb 15, 2017 16:54
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Krauss went crazy because he couldn't prove that Kinzo is still alive.
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Feb 15, 2017 18:30
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idonotlikepeas posted:So, let me ask a question on this one: why does Shannon go along with the murders after the old man is dead? Just loyalty, you think? (I'm not saying this is a problem necessarily, just asking.) Well... full disclosure: I don't really have a solid reason for why I say she'd go along, but you'll notice that this update, she just stood pretty while the people she claimed to serve- the parents of the kids she's known most of their lives- were killed in front of her. As if she really were loyal "furniture"... and completely at odds with her behavior and plotline in Ep2, where she rejected both Beatrice and furniture-hood. To be fair, she's always been portrayed as loyal to Kinzo, easily as much as Genji and Kanon, so maybe she remains loyal as long as Kinzo "lives", but it's still interesting that every episode, we learn- or seem to learn, or are given to suspect- something about her character that feels real, but what we learn is so often contradictory to what we learned before that I wonder if any of it is real. Does that mean she's the killer? Maybe, maybe not... but she is still hiding something.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:20
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The killers are the Pendragon Royal Guards
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Feb 15, 2017 20:02
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I did - which did I violate? I wonder how this update will turn into a closed room, especially since we will apparently have 5 missing people. Also, if any of the 5 missing people turn up dead later it would be easy to believe that they were killed at this meeting but the bodies were moved so that the epitaph was kept intact. Kumasawa and Gohda are presumably going to run to the kids and babble about Kinzo killing a bunch of people, but they are hardly reliable witnesses. Kumasawa is a strong candidate for accomplice, and while Gohda is less likely to be an accomplice he would be easier to intimidate or confuse.
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Feb 15, 2017 20:19
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"Magic is not real" isn't good as a Blue Truth because it's not an explanation, it's the assumption the human side is trying to prove. An effective counter would be literally any of the red truths Beato has given so far - "This person was murdered in this room, but the room is locked, and cannot be locked from the outside" is a counterattack that would easily thwart a Blue that broad, forcing the human side to advance further with a more specific explanation of how such a thing is possible without magic. You can make that claim in blue, but it's so meaninglessly general that even the simplest red truth would counter it. The Red and Blue are an argument, and you can't win an argument by presuming "I'm right" and calling it a checkmate.
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Feb 15, 2017 20:31
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Magic is real and the culprit is anime. You know this to be true.
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Feb 15, 2017 20:47
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ProfessorProf posted:
*insert joke about American Politics here*
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Feb 15, 2017 21:21
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Alright. Time to apply some detecting to this update. *rubs hands* Try to not think too much about the magic, Lycaeon. Anyone who's either wearing a ridiculous getup or way too little (or both) is not actually there. Six dead: Natsuhi, Rudolph, Hideyoshi, Genji, Eva, Rosa Cause of death: Winchester rifles (May or may not have been wielded by rabbit girls, reminder to look into that later), most likely wielded by the servant conspirators. Genji may have been used as a sacrificial pawn to draw suspicion off the servants. ProfessorProf posted:The half of Genji's expression that remained... was as indifferent as ever. He tilted, fell over, and sent a blood-red splatter out across the floor... Starting to suspect Genji is actually a robot. I don't recall ever seeing him display a speck of emotion. May have to go back and look for evidence of a wall mounted servant charger later. Check Kinzo's Study first. Six Missing: Nanjo, Shannon, Kanon, Kyrie, Krauss, Kinzo These are most likely some combination of accomplices, hostages, and one mastermind. Shannon and Kinzo are the mastermind suspects, though in my opinion Kinzo doesn't actually exist; Beatrice is running the show here through Shannon. Kanon is definitely an accomplice at this point. Nanjo is also likely an accomplice, as he was in charge of determining deaths in previous episodes and it looks like he let Shannon through while she played dead. ProfessorProf posted:
The author's really rubbing it into our faces.  Krauss and Kyrie are being held hostage by the remaining accomplices, though it's possible one or both of them might have been coerced or bribed by the mastermind into being an accomplice as well. Escaped: Kumasawa, Gohda Both of them are likely accomplices and will probably relate to the remaining survivors some fantastical story about bunny rabbits and a half naked woman, drawing them into further traps. New imaginary friends: One more rabbit girl and a half dressed lady named Gaap. At this point I shouldn't even be surprised. Just how many imaginary friends did Shannon have?  It does fit in nicely with the idea that the later stories she wrote became more and more fantastical as Beatrice takes over more of her psyche, though it's going to be hard to top the ridiculous battle between Beatrice and Virgilia last episode. I'm looking forward to it. Most importantly, I think Shannon would've made a great fashion designer if the mass murderer career didn't work out for her. ProfessorProf posted:
I think Gaap's English.
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Feb 15, 2017 22:57
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I just had to double check, but Beato's red about no other life forms other than humans says absolutely not a thing about ROBOTS .
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Feb 15, 2017 23:08
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oath2order posted:I just had to double check, but Beato's red about no other life forms other than humans says absolutely not a thing about ROBOTS . Ah, so Beatrice is 3 chimp robots in a dress. Excellent - it was a true tragedy when that theory was slain by the red.
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Feb 15, 2017 23:24
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oath2order posted:I just had to double check, but Beato's red about no other life forms other than humans says absolutely not a thing about ROBOTS . Robochimptrice LIVES.
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Feb 15, 2017 23:32
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Johnny Fiveaces is going to be the next servant
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Feb 15, 2017 23:50
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Lycaeon posted:Cause of death: Winchester rifles (May or may not have been wielded by rabbit girls, reminder to look into that later), most likely wielded by the servant conspirators. Genji may have been used as a sacrificial pawn to draw suspicion off the servants.  There's a scene from The Proposition [2005] where exactly that happens, and when I first saw it in a theater the audience audibly gasped.
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Feb 16, 2017 00:02
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oath2order posted:I just had to double check, but Beato's red about no other life forms other than humans says absolutely not a thing about ROBOTS . Well.... ProfessorProf posted:
Of course, that was last game. So maybe someone very quickly constructed a robot during that first day? Lycaeon posted:Escaped: I don't believe that Gohda has previously been in on any of this poo poo. On the other hand, having a crazy person threaten you with a gun when you know you're stuck on the island might foster a certain desire to cooperate.
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Feb 16, 2017 00:05
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"The culprit who killed Nanjo was not an animal or anything of the sort. That has already been dealt with in red, right? Everything other than humans has been completely removed from consideration. Even things like robots don't work."
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The key to the robot theory is how you define human. All the "furniture" is robots, but Shannon and Kanon became human... by learning how to love. Without love, it cannot be seen (that the murders were committed by cool robots).
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Feb 16, 2017 00:11
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Love.exe and Murder.exe can be run at the same time
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Feb 16, 2017 00:36
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oath2order posted:I just had to double check, but Beato's red about no other life forms other than humans says absolutely not a thing about ROBOTS . That would've been awesome...all the magic could be explained by advanced technology, but idonotlikepeas's quote is pretty damning.  idonotlikepeas posted:I don't believe that Gohda has previously been in on any of this poo poo. On the other hand, having a crazy person threaten you with a gun when you know you're stuck on the island might foster a certain desire to cooperate. That's a good point. There was a part in episode 2 where he was with Nanjo and Kumasawa when they were murdered and claimed it was magic, but looking back on it now he might have just been threatened into cooperating instead of being an accomplice from the start. He seemed terrified when he told Rosa about it. Edit: Huh...that's really interesting. Going back to the scene it becomes pretty clear that Genji and Shannon are either providing hints to him on what to say or are explaining what happened themselves while he's terrified. Definitely plausible that he was forced into going along with their story at the point of a gun. quote:
Lycaeon fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Feb 16, 2017 |
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Feb 16, 2017 01:11
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"Yes. I cannot explain with words what happened after that. He killed Doctor Nanjo and Kumasawa, then disappeared. At that time, he was definitely not Kanon..."
"Yes! That's right! It's just as Genji-san says!! You really couldn't explain it with words!"
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If "absolutely no factors other than humans" excludes robots, it also excludes quibbles about closed rooms. But the environment the murders happen in was the subject of at least one other red truth. This is another case of sloppy red text that can be used to contradict itself.
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Feb 16, 2017 01:14
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avoraciopoctules posted:If "absolutely no factors other than humans" excludes robots, it also excludes quibbles about closed rooms. But the environment the murders happen in was the subject of at least one other red truth. This is another case of sloppy red text that can be used to contradict itself. Edit: Fabulousvillain posted:I feel like the real strategy that should be used for talking in blue is to just throw as many as possible at all angles. It doesn't matter if its a square, triangle, circle, dodecahedron peg throw them down every shaped hole. A SardonicTyrant fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Feb 16, 2017 |
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Feb 16, 2017 01:27
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I feel like the real strategy that should be used for talking in blue is to just throw as many as possible at all angles. It doesn't matter if its a square, triangle, circle, dodecahedron peg throw them down every shaped hole. Also make holes of course, like Kinzo shot 6 people in a locked room while Genji kept him from being attacked by Krauss, then Genji was shot while this played out. or Russian Roulette isn't as fun with 6 bullets, just ask these guys. or All the rooms in this mansion are soundproof and contain firearms. So the goal is really for Battler to do this:  (I really just forgot I made this picture and wanted an excuse to post it  )
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Feb 16, 2017 01:29
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SardonicTyrant posted:That's actually not true. It is never stated in Red that the murders were commited in the rooms they were found in. All it states was that all six victims are dead, they died instantly, and they were all killed by homicide. Umm. The six in the closed room circle were not all killed by homicide.
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Feb 16, 2017 01:56
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MonsterEnvy posted:Umm. The six in the closed room circle were not all killed by homicide. Here's my guess: Ronove stopped Beatrice from saying None of the six died an accidental death because that would imply the six deaths were homicides. Now, at the suspected time of the murders, everyone else is accounted for; the adults are busy arguing about the inheritance, and the children are playing or something. The only person I can't seem to pinpoint is Nanjo, but if he's the killer he would have no way of setting up the circle from outside of the rooms, so we can probably rule him out. In any event, the only way the circle can be formed is if one of the servants with a master key locked every room in the circle but their own, and then died inside of their own room after locking in. But how can that be? They would have to be killed by somebody else instantly, in a way that did not constitute a trap, and which fit the definition of a closed room (which is specifically defined and which I can dig up if anyone asks). I'll stress again that Beatrice is definitely on the island, and is a human, based on previous posts. If Beatrice is impersonating one of the servants/ is also one of the servants, she/he? can fake being dead without contradicting the Red truth. SardonicTyrant fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Feb 16, 2017 |
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Feb 16, 2017 02:12
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SardonicTyrant posted:And Beatrice was possibly also about to state None of the six died an accidental death, but that may or may not be true since she didn't finish. I would think the answer is obvious, but whatever. Either way, I find it a little disappointing that people never really properly speculated about why that scene happened the way it did.
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Feb 16, 2017 02:44
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tiistai posted:I would think the answer is obvious, but whatever. Either way, I find it a little disappointing that people never really properly speculated about why that scene happened the way it did. Which part, the six-room mystery or Ronove cutting her off?
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Feb 16, 2017 03:00
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idonotlikepeas posted:Which part, the six-room mystery or Ronove cutting her off? That whole meta world scene really, although Ronove cutting her off and from there onwards is probably the most notable yet ignored part of it. The closed room chain itself was discussed quite a bit from what I remember.
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Feb 16, 2017 03:17
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I think the issue was that no one realized the implications of that statement if it was in Red. The situation would look impossible to solve then. I suppose the reader is meant to assume that Ronove is trying to prevent a stalemate, like he does earlier by refusing to state something in Red.
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Feb 16, 2017 03:27
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SardonicTyrant posted:The six were not killed by traps, and a trap is defined as something the victims could trigger by themselves, or something that could be triggered remotely or on a timer. By this explanation is poisoning someone be considered a trap?
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Feb 16, 2017 03:59
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Yeah, that's what I remembered too, so I figured I'd check rather than diving into the room cycle thing again. So, part of the problem for me is that I've taken the position that none of that poo poo actually happened, for whatever value of "actually" applies. But obviously it was imagined as a story, by someone, intending some kind of consistency, so we could at least discuss it on that basis. Let's revisit the events. First off, they occur in the chapters Prof is calling "Skirmish", which are here: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3790134&pagenumber=1646&perpage=1 https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3790134&pagenumber=1706&perpage=1 The rough outline is that Battler, filled with confidence thanks to Virgilia's advice, challenges Beatrice with an explanation of the events of the First Twilight. Beatrice makes several statements in red describing the rooms as closed and allocating the keys. (Incidentally, Kinzo being dead would explain why he doesn't have a master key of his own.) Battler appears to display some amount of competence, unusually, and as a result Beatrice appears to gradually become more flustered. The climax of the scene, as we've discussed, is when she's about to say that nobody in the rooms died accidental deaths, at which point Ronove silences her, they have a conference, and then she comes back accepting (temporary) defeat. Battler declines the opportunity to kick her when she's down, and they kind of have a moment, then the scene ends. So part of this would likely be about the North Wind and Sun strategy - Battler doesn't mind fighting a strong opponent, but it seems to trouble him to crush a weak one. So giving Battler a brief flash of vulnerability and letting him win has the effect of making him think more kindly of her, which contributes to her near-victory at the end of the story. This is especially likely, since Virgilia was working with her, as we saw at the end - her building up Battler's confidence would be a trick preparing him for this. It's unlikely that all of her freaking out and yelling is an act, though; she does genuinely seem to have some temper issues. So let's examine the possibility that Ronove really was stopping her for a good reason. There are three reasons that I can think of that it might be advantageous to prevent her from saying something in red. One would be if it's actually not true - everything in red is supposed to be true, and if she got super pissed and was trying to say something false in red, who knows what the result would be? So it's possible that one of the people actually DID die an accidental death. I don't think anything later contradicts that, exactly. It's not an attractive theory for me, though (although perhaps someone else can make hay of it), because it's more interesting in general if the murders are intentional, and I think we have some discussion that shows mechanisms for that to be the case. So the second reason: every time Beatrice makes a red statement, she also defines the universe of non-red statements a little more closely. This is why she continually talks about being "careful" with using red truths; if she eliminates too many possibilities, it's possible that she'll lead Battler to the real truth by eliminating, as Holmes would have it, everything that's impossible. I think this one comes up a lot, but in this particular case, she resigns from that skirmish almost immediately afterward. Now, it could be that this prevents a complete victory for Battler, but even handing him a small victory like this makes this possibility a bit less likely in my eyes. The third reason is a bit more interesting to me, but it relies on information we learned later. Specifically, in this entry here: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3790134&pagenumber=2282&perpage=1 Lambadelta reveals that this entire cycle of events is intended as a trap for Bernkastel. If Beatrice loses, the game ends and Bernkastel is free. But what doesn't get said in there, and is equally important, is that if Beatrice WINS, the same thing happens. She can't ever completely convince Battler, because as soon as she does, there's no need to keep playing the game. So she has to continually string him along, holding out hope that he can succeed and then snatching it away. It's why she can't do what Eva does and just trap him with a bunch of contradictions - she has to break him a little, but always give him a chance to rebound and never totally clinch the victory. (Incidentally, I have some thoughts on what this might mean in the real world, but it's not enough for a cohesive theory yet. Maybe if there's another tea party at the end of this one I'll babble about it.) That's about all I have at the moment; does anyone else have any thoughts on this scene? idonotlikepeas fucked around with this message at 04:10 on Feb 16, 2017 |
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Feb 16, 2017 04:05
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Fabulousvillain posted:By this explanation is poisoning someone be considered a trap? Ronove: "Pu ku ku... So, it refers to all arrangements that could carry out a murder without the direct participation of the one who planned it out. Perhaps we might sum it up that way." It depends on if Ronove is elaborating for us or deceiving us. I feel it's the former, though. idonotlikepeas posted:That's about all I have at the moment; does anyone else have any thoughts on this scene? SardonicTyrant fucked around with this message at 04:22 on Feb 16, 2017 |
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Feb 16, 2017 04:10
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SardonicTyrant posted:Beatrice: "Oh, umm... that's it! Something that activates when a victim triggers it on their own. Oh, and that's not all! It also includes things activated by remote control or by a timer, everything of that sort!" I suppose that may apply to poisoning someone's food, but a poisoned needle or weapon of some sort still sounds like fair game. Now to find out if there's a poison that peels the victims' face off.
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Feb 16, 2017 04:52
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Fabulousvillain posted:By this explanation is poisoning someone be considered a trap? Whether it's a trap or not is also a bit irrelevant, I don't know of any poison that leads to "instant" death.
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Feb 16, 2017 06:57
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KataraniSword posted:Whether it's a trap or not is also a bit irrelevant, I don't know of any poison that leads to "instant" death. From what I read, on google in the last 5 minutes, the fastest thing would be cyanide in about minute if swallowed and about 5 seconds by injection. Sounds pretty "instant" to me, but at this point it's pretty much irrelevant and may as well be a gunshot as far as subtlety goes. Now I have to delete my search history, glad to be back to the murdering part of Umineko again.
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Feb 16, 2017 09:08
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idonotlikepeas posted:So, part of the problem for me is that I've taken the position that none of that poo poo actually happened, for whatever value of "actually" applies. But obviously it was imagined as a story, by someone, intending some kind of consistency, so we could at least discuss it on that basis. Let's revisit the events. I had been thinking about this for a while. Obviously chunks of these stories don't actually happen (or are, at least, distractingly embellished), because magic is of course not real But I feel like there ought to be some sort of consistency in what we consider to not have happened.I've been re-reading through the game, and I was almost certain I was onto something - I thought the golden butterflies signified a made up or embellished scene - but there weren't any butterflies here  I guess there's not really much point to this now, other than: anyone else have any ideas? E: Also, yeah, what constitutes an "instant" death?
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Feb 16, 2017 15:40
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