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Looking forward to it!
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Nov 10, 2016 22:05
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Okay there's something I don't get about armor because I don't know that much about smithing. Let's say I'm an armorer and someone gives me a chunk of bloom iron that's anywhere form the size of a small fist to like the size of my head or something. Me and my assistants try to knock off all the slag from the outside with hammers, then heat it up and try to knock even more slag off. Then I guess we fold it or and beat it or some loving thing to get more slag off or something I'm a little unclear. Then we use heat and charcoal to turn the bloom iron into lovely, lumpy steel, and then I guess we could fold it and smack it more to make it less lovely and lumpy? Or does it already have enough carbon in it to be steel when we got the bloom initially? Anyway my main question is about what kind of armor we make with the somewhat lovely and lumpy steel. It's seems like we could: A) Bang on the lump of steel until it turns in to a flat plate and then bang on it more until we can make a nice shape with proper edges and poo poo. If we started with a small bloom we could make a small plate for a brigandine or coat of plates or something, or if it was a big bloom and not so lovely we could make a breastplate or something. Forge welding multiple small plates together to make something like a breastplate isn't an options because of ??? Anyway depending on how many assistants I have and whether I have a sweet water-powered hammer or something this is a few days to weeks of work depending on the size? B) Get the steel hot enough to be nice a flowy and somehow drag it through a draw plate with a series of smaller and smaller holes until I can pull a continuous steel wire. Somehow do this even though there are bits of slag and other discontinuities in the steel bigger than the diameter of the wire. Or maybe we spend way longer folding and removing slag compared to option A? Anyway after we get the wire made we have to spiral it into a bunch of rings, and take some of those rings and forge weld the ends together to make solid rings, and take the other rings and make flat bits on the end with holes in them to make space for little rivets. Also we have to make a fuckton of little rivets too I guess gently caress. Then we spend goddamn ages riveting these links together until we reach the heat death of the universe or we finish the mail shirt or something. But the extra effort was all worth it in the end because we made armor that isn't even as good as what we could have made in option A. Like the standard story on this is the mail was succeeded by plate for most areas of the body because plate was better armor, but mail was more common in earlier periods because it was easier to make. I feel like I'm missing something major with the history of these armors or the way they were made because the explanations I've seen (a detailed historical understanding formed from youtube videos and skip-reading this thread) aren't making sense to me.
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Nov 11, 2016 05:00
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My simplistic understanding is that mail was more work in terms of hours consumed, but that work was much more forgiving and didn't require the same level of skill and consistent quality of steel. So maille could be made mostly with cheap unskilled labor. After the Black Death, wages for unskilled labor go up and the cost savings goes away. There's a blacksmithing thread in DIY. I haven't read it but maybe they could help with the technical explanations? (If so please report back here!)
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Nov 11, 2016 05:18
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Mail is worth it because it's flexible and convenient, and because you don't have to get all the wire right on the first try. If there's crap in the iron and the wire snaps, well, you still have wire and can get to work while someone else pulls more wire. There's a book called The Knight and the Blast Furnace, it might answer your questions.
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Nov 11, 2016 07:54
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DuckConference posted:Okay there's something I don't get about armor because I don't know that much about smithing. quote:that's anywhere form the size of a small fist to like the size of my head or something. Me and my assistants try to knock off all the slag from the outside with hammers, then heat it up and try to knock even more slag off. Then I guess we fold it or and beat it or some loving thing to get more slag off or something I'm a little unclear. This is all done at the furnace, and the exterior slag is usually knocked off within the first minute of extracting the bloom. The bloom is then typically divided and forged into billets or plates which can then be forged into plates. Even relatively early bloomery furnaces could make a bloom of two dozen pounds or so. quote:Then we use heat and charcoal to turn the bloom iron into lovely, lumpy steel, and then I guess we could fold it and smack it more to make it less lovely and lumpy? Or does it already have enough carbon in it to be steel when we got the bloom initially? The first process you describe is hearth refining, and the steel it makes is not lovely. it has to be forge welded back into bar or plate form but that's not a huge challenge. quote:Anyway my main question is about what kind of armor we make with the somewhat lovely and lumpy steel. It's seems like we could: Nobody is going to give you a bloom, see above. Forge welding thin material together is very challenging because it loses heat very fast. You could weld together a few bars [or weld one bar over on itself] if you want to concentrate material, but more often you just buy the correct type of raw billet in the first place. quote:B) Get the steel hot enough to be nice a flowy and somehow drag it through a draw plate with a series of smaller and smaller holes until I can pull a continuous steel wire. Somehow do this even though there are bits of slag and other discontinuities in the steel bigger than the diameter of the wire. Or maybe we spend way longer folding and removing slag compared to option A? Anyway after we get the wire made we have to spiral it into a bunch of rings, and take some of those rings and forge weld the ends together to make solid rings, and take the other rings and make flat bits on the end with holes in them to make space for little rivets. Also we have to make a fuckton of little rivets too I guess gently caress. Then we spend goddamn ages riveting these links together until we reach the heat death of the universe or we finish the mail shirt or something. But the extra effort was all worth it in the end because we made armor that isn't even as good as what we could have made in option A. No. Welded rings are rare, but when they are made it was by iirc welding a pipe together and sawing the rings off. this is relying on me remembering a thread I saw some months ago. The far more common way to make solid rings was punching them out of a plate. Wedge rivets are not hard to make, and wire rivets must have been fairly easy as well given how many thousands would be in a hauberk. Also mail vs. plate isn't a clear-cut one is better than the other. we know, for example, that mail wire has to be of quite pure iron, and tailored to the wearer. Smaller plates, like those of Lorica Segmentata or Lamellar, can be made out of comparatively slaggy iron, and thus the overall product requires less labor to produce. however, both segmentata and lamellar are subject to weaknesses that make them in many ways less preferable than mail, like difficulty of cleaning, limited coverage for joints, vulnerability of brass hinges or string to blows, etc. plate's biggest advantage is of course rigidity, which is why you never really see someone going with just a mail coif if they could afford a helmet, since your brain box is particularly weak to percussive force. Once you get to globose steel breastplates in the mid 15th c. you still need mail for your joints but it becomes less important as the foundational armour because the necessary knowledge & equipment to make lots of good, high-quality plate has been achieved & it is outright cheaper to make in terms of labor than mail, though some people still preferred mail for reasons that are not entirely scrutable. quote:Like the standard story on this is the mail was succeeded by plate for most areas of the body because plate was better armor, but mail was more common in earlier periods because it was easier to make. I feel like I'm missing something major with the history of these armors or the way they were made because the explanations I've seen (a detailed historical understanding formed from youtube videos and skip-reading this thread) aren't making sense to me. So read what I wrote above, and also read this http://myarmoury.com/feature_mail.php P-Mack posted:There's a blacksmithing thread in DIY. I haven't read it but maybe they could help with the technical explanations? (If so please report back here!) Almost all of these guys are machinists, and the few blacksmiths don't have a lot of experience with historical ironwork. In addition to milhist I've been a hobbyist blacksmith for 13 years & keep an eye on developments in the bloom smelting world (of which there are many right now. Lee Sauder is really carrying the torch, in that regard). Though I've never forged bloom iron I've had a lot of time with 19th century wrought iron, which has a similar slag content. It's fun stuff. Edit: see this vid. Mark Green and Daniel Cauble are two other big names in smelting. https://youtube.com/9S30KoIzvmA Rodrigo Diaz fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 15:24
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You're a treasure, you know that? 
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Nov 11, 2016 15:45
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Rodrigo Diaz posted:So read what I wrote above, and also read this http://myarmoury.com/feature_mail.php Thanks, this makes more sense now. I think I was under-estimating the quality of steel that they would have while also ignoring some of the downsides of multiple-small-plates type armors. EDIT: That youtube link is dead
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Nov 11, 2016 18:05
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DuckConference posted:Thanks, this makes more sense now. I think I was under-estimating the quality of steel that they would have while also ignoring some of the downsides of multiple-small-plates type armors. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S30KoIzvmA
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Nov 11, 2016 21:24
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Saw this article about a Mexican town that fought for, and sort of won, independence from their municipality. Thought of this thread. Long story short, they were mad as hell at bands of cartel-associated loggers and how ineffectual the local government was at providing protection. So, eventually the town resisted and a band of local women took some of the loggers hostage. One thing led to another and folks ended up outlawing all political parties and running their politicians out of the area.As of right now the town is almost entirely governed by a (federally recognized) town council, and have developed a sort of "common law" to deal with offenses. We've talked here before about how the absence of an effective central governing entity leads to a lot of de facto self-government. This was broadly the case in medieval times with slow communications, and it's interesting to see now that organized nation-states are a thing. I'm sure you can find a lot more modern examples in this spirit (Somalia was mentioned), but this one happens to not be depressing. That, and there's the bits where the townsfolk considered hanging captured pillagers from a tree, and "everyone in the streets was running around with machetes". I think we all know what that reminds us of 
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Nov 13, 2016 20:09
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So Icelandic assemblies were touched upon- what about assemblies from the non-Germanic side of things? I know I've read about lesser senates and assemblies in the later Roman empire (Honorius iirc instituted one in Arles that was supposed to represent all of Gaul, right?), along with some references to not just senators but also senates themselves outside of Rome in the early Germanic-Roman kingdoms. What happened to those? Were they the basis of France's provincial parlements, or was that a later purely Frankish invention?
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Nov 14, 2016 17:37
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Ofaloaf posted:Were they the basis of France's provincial parlements, or was that a later purely Frankish invention? A quick look at Wikipedia (I know...) shows that the French parlements started being created after the 13th century (and really, more like after the 15th for the ones outside Paris). They were also law courts and not actual parliaments as we understand the word today. It doesn't look like there was a direct connection with Roman or Frankish institutions. It's possible cities in southern France were governed by descendants of such assemblies for a time, several were apparently autonomous to various degrees during the Middle Ages.
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Nov 14, 2016 18:00
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Have people seen this story about 40ish shipwrecks (9th-19th century, including a medieval round ship) discovered reasonably intact on the bottom of the Black Sea?
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Nov 16, 2016 22:12
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One would be amazing, forty is overwhelming but I suspect there's even more than that. They will probably get photographed/scanned as close as possible and then one or two would be raised.
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Nov 17, 2016 08:38
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Ghost of Babyhead posted:Have people seen this story about 40ish shipwrecks (9th-19th century, including a medieval round ship) discovered reasonably intact on the bottom of the Black Sea? Id been told about this but never looked it up. Fuckin sick
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Nov 18, 2016 01:06
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Gentlemen, ladies, does anyone of you live in a place where there's loads of birch trees? Like, paper birch. Swedes or Finns? I need *you* to collect some special birch bark for me.
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Nov 25, 2016 16:00
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OK so I want easily-browsed collections of arms and armor to check out. I've already found some good ones but want more (MORE) Here's what I've got so far: Philadelphia Museum of Art Metropolitan Museum of Art The Walters Museum The Royal Armouries Hermann Historica auction house Any other recommendations? Rodrigo Diaz fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Nov 27, 2016 |
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Nov 27, 2016 01:27
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Link to Hermann Historica is broken.
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Nov 27, 2016 01:51
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xthetenth posted:Link to Hermann Historica is broken. no it's not 
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Nov 27, 2016 01:55
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Rodrigo Diaz posted:OK so I want easily-browsed collections of arms and armor to check out. I've already found some good ones but want more (MORE) If Flickr accounts are OK, Roel Renmans has a bunch of stuff, sorted by period. On Pinterest (ordered by object): Robert MacPherson (more material culture than armour) Ian LaSpina
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Nov 27, 2016 11:14
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JaucheCharly posted:Gentlemen, ladies, does anyone of you live in a place where there's loads of birch trees? Like, paper birch. Swedes or Finns? I need *you* to collect some special birch bark for me. I live in Finland, but paper birch only exists in North America, so you're probably thinking of some other sort of birch.
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Nov 27, 2016 20:46
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Hm. Silver birch (Betula pendula) is common in Finland? The ideal material would look like this: I need long and flawless sections. No warts, gnarls or holes. As long and wide as possible, 40x4cm at least is good, anything above it is better. Young trees often have very smooth and high quality bark, but they're thinner. Any tree with a trunk diameter of 10-15cm should be good. I'll pay the shipping and you tell me how much you want for your time.
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Nov 27, 2016 21:07
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JaucheCharly posted:Hm. Silver birch (Betula pendula) is common in Finland? The ideal material would look like this: I'll check with my housemate, who does historical crafts for a living about harvesting bark, I'm not 100% sure but it might be a bad time of the year to do so, qualitywise.
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Nov 27, 2016 22:03
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It's ok, if spring or summer is better, we'll do it then.
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Nov 27, 2016 22:11
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Ghost of Babyhead posted:If Flickr accounts are OK, Roel Renmans has a bunch of stuff, sorted by period. Ah lol I can't believe I forgot him. I even linked to him in this thread (reposting because it's an awesome piece that I look at a lot) Rodrigo Diaz posted:This carving in particular blows me away because a) its early/mid 12th century and b) the paint is still there, which one of the Vatican councils is supposed to have done away with: quote:On Pinterest (ordered by object): n0ice edit: Really I'm looking for more weapons stuff too, and more actual objects than historical images featuring weapons. Still soliciting suggestions. Rodrigo Diaz fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Nov 27, 2016 |
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Nov 27, 2016 22:32
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JaucheCharly posted:It's ok, if spring or summer is better, we'll do it then. One of my housemate's colleagues has birch bark in store and apparently has at least one piece big enough for your needs, drop me a PM with your contact info and I'll set stuff up.
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Nov 27, 2016 23:16
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Can y'all tell me about the Blues and Greens in the Eastern Roman Empire? As in, were they ever politically organized, did they dabble in sports besides charioteering, etc.? The extent to which they permeated society (before Justinian killed 'em all) seems almost satirical.
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Dec 6, 2016 20:13
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The Greens were just honest athletes and fine charioteers. The Blues were a bunch of uncivilized thugs who relied on violence to get ahead.
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Dec 6, 2016 20:25
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Mantis42 posted:The Blues were a bunch of uncivilized thugs who relied on violence to get ahead. Sounds like someone's still upset over the election.
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Dec 6, 2016 21:09
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DandyLion posted:Sounds like someone's still upset over the election. cry more, you blue gently caress. do you want the cestus? this is how you get the cestus
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Dec 6, 2016 21:40
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HEY GAL posted:cry more, you blue gently caress. do you want the cestus? this is how you get the cestus That's caestus, you plebian girdle-wearer.
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Dec 6, 2016 22:31
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Well What Now posted:That's caestus, you plebian girdle-wearer. darn kids and their pantaloons and hunnic haircuts
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Dec 8, 2016 03:51
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 the guy getting sounded is carrying a swordstaff
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Feb 15, 2017 23:51
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A dude in TFR just posted a box thread for a reproduction medieval crossbow he had built. I'm not a crossbow nerd but it's neat as hell and looks halfway accurate.
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Feb 16, 2017 01:59
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I'm glad someone bumped this thread! Here's a part of a page from a manuscript I've been writing about lately:_(cropped2).jpg/364px-Utrecht_Ps63_(cropped)_(cropped2).jpg) It's from the Utrecht Psalter, a mid-ninth century manuscript probably produced somewhere around Rheims but currently housed at Utrecht University. There's a really great annotated digital edition of the psalter here: http://psalter.library.uu.nl/?_ga=1.221130712.1346547323.1487213378 I'm not an expert on such things, but apparently even though the Psalter's images are based on an older Late Antique model the weapons and armor depicted therein are contemporary to the ninth century.
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Feb 16, 2017 03:52
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Cyrano4747 posted:A dude in TFR just posted a box thread for a reproduction medieval crossbow he had built. I'm not a crossbow nerd but it's neat as hell and looks halfway accurate.
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Feb 16, 2017 04:07
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Cyrano4747 posted:A dude in TFR just posted a box thread for a reproduction medieval crossbow he had built. I'm not a crossbow nerd but it's neat as hell and looks halfway accurate. Coincidentally, Matt Easton also got his hands on a fairly similar crossbow made by the same guy and talked about it a bunch here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3L6Ek9zLVA
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Feb 16, 2017 11:38
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Cyrano4747 posted:A dude in TFR just posted a box thread for a reproduction medieval crossbow he had built. I'm not a crossbow nerd but it's neat as hell and looks halfway accurate. deadking posted:I'm glad someone bumped this thread! Here's a part of a page from a manuscript I've been writing about lately: cool stuff i followed links and found videos of these ancient crossbows: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP8bqIgd5ro https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RIPKMZbDZU Hogge Wild fucked around with this message at 15:17 on Feb 16, 2017 |
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Feb 16, 2017 15:14
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Cyrano4747 posted:A dude in TFR just posted a box thread for a reproduction medieval crossbow he had built. I'm not a crossbow nerd but it's neat as hell and looks halfway accurate. A year back or more another dude talked about this maker, and it's pretty bland work for that price. Check out the work of 2 of my friends http://imgur.com/a/LqN3g Power Khan fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Feb 16, 2017 |
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Feb 16, 2017 17:01
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deadking posted:I'm glad someone bumped this thread! Here's a part of a page from a manuscript I've been writing about lately: This is really cool. The style is weirdly similar to Bill Mauldin
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Feb 16, 2017 18:25
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JaucheCharly posted:A year back or more another dude talked about this maker, and it's pretty bland work for that price. edit: Leo Todeschini is english and things cost more over there. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 09:58 on Feb 17, 2017 |
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Feb 17, 2017 09:54
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