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Lightning Knight posted:I feel like using "Generic Democrat" as your baseline is flawed because such a person doesn't actually exist. In reality any given candidate comes with baggage. I hear you, and maybe this poll is trash (the head to head matchups very likely are). But the argument is that all democrats have spineless centrist neoliberal baggage except for a select few like warren who are pure enough to excite the base and win. If that's less important than Pocahontas memes, well...
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Feb 16, 2017 02:04
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Honestly Warren is not a winner in this regard as she's cool to Generic Educated Voter but the poll is right that she polls less well amongst the Average Dipshit Voter.
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Feb 16, 2017 02:12
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Tesseraction posted:It was blowing my mind that people had forgotten this and it wasn't being brought up.
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Feb 16, 2017 02:14
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Kilroy posted:I mean I literally brought it up three posts above the one you quoted. True true, but you qualified it with "wouldn't be surprised" so I was wary of quoting you on that!
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Feb 16, 2017 02:17
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I'm still wondering how we keep yo-yoing back and forth between "the left doesn't need to be pandered to" and "Republicans love the left because they keep throwing elections to the GOP" and nobody seems to be blinking an eye. JC here advocates one or the other depending on whether we're on an even page or an odd one - can't have it both ways, dude.
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Feb 16, 2017 02:18
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Kilroy posted:I'm still wondering how we keep yo-yoing back and forth between "the left doesn't need to be pandered to" and "Republicans love the left because they keep throwing elections to the GOP" and nobody seems to be blinking an eye. JC here advocates one or the other depending on whether we're on an even page or an odd one - can't have it both ways, dude. Well, if the left would refuse to vote elections regardless of whether they were pandered to or not, then both statements would be true. They would also both be true if the left had a propaganda effect that demoralized voters beyond their limited circles.
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Feb 16, 2017 02:20
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Kilroy posted:Hmmm I wonder how Chuck Schumer would do in this scenario - better stake the future of the party on popularity pissing contests instead of policies that Americans favor overwhelmingly. Gun control it is.
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Feb 16, 2017 02:21
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Brainiac Five posted:Well, if the left would refuse to vote elections regardless of whether they were pandered to or not, then both statements would be true. They would also both be true if the left had a propaganda effect that demoralized voters beyond their limited circles.
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Feb 16, 2017 02:26
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Kilroy posted:It's odd that the left possesses this awesome power of mind control and unity of action that you describe, and yet the two main American political parties are center-right and far-right. I wonder why that is. You seem to be reading a lot of implications in to a very simple statement, and those implications are in turn bizarre. Like, propaganda is mind control now? What the heck? If I post excerpts from Ilya Ehrenburg at you, will it allow me to control your mind and keep you from making bad posts like these?
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Feb 16, 2017 02:29
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Fulchrum posted:Gun control it is. You can start with re-opening the NFA registry and mandating that handguns and semiauto rifles go on it.
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Feb 16, 2017 02:30
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Gov. Malloy, head of the Democratic Governors' Association, endorsed Perez.
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Feb 16, 2017 02:33
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quote:"In his public life and political efforts, I have have already seen him in action fighting for one progressive cause after another - disability rights, paid family leave, and reentry services for Americans looking for a second chance,'' Malloy said. "Tom has demonstrated that he has the vision, ability, and track record of results to lead the turnaround our party needs." Has any candidate not argued for these? Other than that weirdo who Rush Limbaugh apparently backed.
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Feb 16, 2017 02:36
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Brainiac Five posted:You seem to be reading a lot of implications in to a very simple statement, and those implications are in turn bizarre. Like, propaganda is mind control now? What the heck? If I post excerpts from Ilya Ehrenburg at you, will it allow me to control your mind and keep you from making bad posts like these? You at least seem pretty consistent in this, telling me that the left is both inconsequential and also responsible for all the challenges the Democratic party faces. That doesn't make any loving sense, but at least you keep repeating the same thing that doesn't make any loving sense. JeffersonClay says one or the other depending on which narrative he's trying to push just then.
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Feb 16, 2017 02:36
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Governor Malloy, second most hated governor in America, is not really an endorsement you want imo.
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Feb 16, 2017 02:39
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Tesseraction posted:Has any candidate not argued for these? Other than that weirdo who Rush Limbaugh apparently backed. It's less the specific issues than the fact that Malloy emphasized Perez's organizing experience, contrasted with the message from the pro-Ellison camp that Perez is too inexperienced for the role.
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Feb 16, 2017 02:39
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Aurubin posted:Governor Malloy, second most hated governor in America, is not really an endorsement you want imo. What kind of name is "Dannel"
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Feb 16, 2017 02:40
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Kilroy posted:I'm just trying to figure out if I'm responsible for Hillary not getting elected despite voting for her and encouraging others to do the same, because I wasn't enthusiastic enough or something. I'm hearing conflicting reports. It's also not clear to me whether leftists are going to cost the Democrats a chance at the House, or maintaining the Senate filibuster, or whatever, or if instead our support or lack of it is utterly inconsequential. You probably should be less self-absorbed and obsessed with whether you are personally potent or not. They have pills for that now.
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Feb 16, 2017 02:41
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Why is this thread so personally vicious?
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Feb 16, 2017 02:42
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Brainiac Five posted:You probably should be less self-absorbed and obsessed with whether you are personally potent or not.
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Feb 16, 2017 02:43
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Lightning Lord posted:Why is this thread so personally vicious? I was about to say it was just a dick pill joke, but: Kilroy posted:This is a great slogan for the Democratic party. Are you going to Atlanta? If you are try to shop it around a bit. Then I saw that this dude decided to defend Randian Objectivism as an ideology Democrats should cater to or something and then I realized that jokes have been made obsolete.
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Feb 16, 2017 02:46
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Brainiac Five posted:jokes have been made obsolete 
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Feb 16, 2017 02:49
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NBC is reporting that Ellison has offered Buckley a role in leading DNC operations in exchange for his support. Buckley is the (hopelessly doomed) conservative Democratic candidate who once drove around one of Lieberman's two Joemobiles.
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Feb 16, 2017 03:01
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Lightning Lord posted:Why is this thread so personally vicious? The politics of ideological purity versus strategic voting makes people salty.
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Feb 16, 2017 03:02
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Cease to Hope posted:NBC is reporting that Ellison has offered Buckley a role in leading DNC operations in exchange for his support. Buckley is the (hopelessly doomed) conservative Democratic candidate who once drove around one of Lieberman's two Joemobiles. No but you see Ellison is the Bernie Cult's Chosen One therefore he's the liberalist liberal to ever liberal and Perez is a third way centrist stooge!
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Feb 16, 2017 03:13
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DaveWoo posted:Welp, I'm convinced. Generic Democrat 2020! i would think this would be p obvious. i mean "generic democrat" is basically just a concept which you can assign all your warmest fuzzies without any of the things you hate coming along. centrist and love free trade and wall street? generic dem is there for you! leftist and want full communism now? generic dem is your candidate.
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Feb 16, 2017 03:38
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DaveWoo posted:Seriously, though, do you guys not know that Generic Republican/Democrat always outpolls an actual specific person? Yes, that could explain what we're seeing here. But no, that's not always true. Here's George W Bush beating a generic Republican. http://www.people-press.org/1998/09/10/other-important-findings-5/  Here's Clinton beating a generic Democrat. http://fusion.net/story/41972/fusion-poll-millennials-politics-hillary-clinton-jeb-bush-election-2016/   Are these outliers? I do not know. Kilroy posted:I'm still wondering how we keep yo-yoing back and forth between "the left doesn't need to be pandered to" and "Republicans love the left because they keep throwing elections to the GOP" and nobody seems to be blinking an eye. JC here advocates one or the other depending on whether we're on an even page or an odd one - can't have it both ways, dude. I don't doubt the democrats could get more votes from leftists by pandering to them. I don't think it's self evident that they would gain more leftist votes than they'd lose moderate votes. That's not inconsistent with the suggestion that some of the left hosed itself and everybody else by putting purity above pragmatism-- a weakness Trump and the Russians deftly exploited. I don't blame any Somethingawful dot com poster for losing us the election. I blame the people and institutions on the left with actual influence, like Greenwald, or the Jacobin, who thought that by attacking lesser-evilism they weren't responsible for the consequences of tearing down the only person who could beat trump. JeffersonClay fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Feb 16, 2017 |
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Feb 16, 2017 03:47
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Cease to Hope posted:NBC is reporting that Ellison has offered Buckley a role in leading DNC operations in exchange for his support. Buckley is the (hopelessly doomed) conservative Democratic candidate who once drove around one of Lieberman's two Joemobiles. not surprising. these people dont stop existing if Ellison gets the nod, and he'll need to be able to work with them
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Feb 16, 2017 03:58
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Cease to Hope posted:NBC is reporting that Ellison has offered Buckley a role in leading DNC operations in exchange for his support. Buckley is the (hopelessly doomed) conservative Democratic candidate who once drove around one of Lieberman's two Joemobiles. Its almost as if success in politics requires an ability and willingness to compromise and build coalitions who don't agree on everything. Goondolences to all the purity people who just had their dreams crushed.
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Feb 16, 2017 04:04
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I feel like "pandering to leftists" and "pandering to disaffected voters who don't feel represented" doesn't necessarily represent the exact same group. Your average person knowledgeable enough about politics to self identify as "leftist" is often a different kind of person than, say, dissatisfied middle class blue collar workers from Wisconsin. Some things will appeal to both, but they aren't perfect circles by far.
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Feb 16, 2017 04:12
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:https://twitter.com/NomikiKonst/status/832053927692627968?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw lol these guys are great.
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Feb 16, 2017 04:44
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Lightning Knight posted:I feel like "pandering to leftists" and "pandering to disaffected voters who don't feel represented" doesn't necessarily represent the exact same group. Yes, exactly. Our problem is identifying the issues that appeal to both leftists and disaffected voters AND that won't piss off too many other people in the coalition. It's not as simple as "go left".
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Feb 16, 2017 04:45
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JeffersonClay posted:Yes, exactly. Our problem is identifying the issues that appeal to both leftists and disaffected voters AND that won't piss off too many other people in the coalition. It's not as simple as "go left". I mean, I agree in principle with the idea that the platform is good, we simply require candidates that the more left wing can trust will enact the platform. I would rather see somebody like Kamala Harris or Keith Ellison run for President in 2020 than Booker, for example.
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Feb 16, 2017 04:54
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JeffersonClay posted:I don't doubt the democrats could get more votes from leftists by pandering to them. I don't think it's self evident that they would gain more leftist votes than they'd lose moderate votes. That's not inconsistent with the suggestion that some of the left hosed itself and everybody else by putting purity above pragmatism-- a weakness Trump and the Russians deftly exploited. I don't blame any Somethingawful dot com poster for losing us the election. I blame the people and institutions on the left with actual influence, like Greenwald, or the Jacobin, who thought that by attacking lesser-evilism they weren't responsible for the consequences of tearing down the only person who could beat trump.
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Feb 16, 2017 05:06
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:https://twitter.com/NomikiKonst/status/832053927692627968?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw I'm going to be happy with either of them in charge and hopefully they push hard for younger people to get more involved. Barring the eventual nationwide vote suppression the GOP's going to unveil, getting a solid turnout for 2018 is going to be vital for keeping more states from going red and dragging the US further in to fascism.
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Feb 16, 2017 05:20
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Kilroy posted:As opposed to tearing down the left itself which is so institutionalized at this point that you don't even notice it. Almost as if nobody is tearing it down and it's so ineffectual and is so in love with chasing smug self satisfaction over victories that it will tear itself apart effortlessly. Like, for example, saying they will do everything they can to get Trump reelected if Dems elect one of the two identical guys up for a position.
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Feb 16, 2017 07:18
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Fulchrum posted:Almost as if nobody is tearing it down and it's so ineffectual and is so in love with chasing smug self satisfaction over victories that it will tear itself apart effortlessly.
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Feb 16, 2017 07:23
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Kilroy posted:enjoy your political party Yeah, human rights, the environment, the concept of democracy itself, all of that needs to take a back seat to screaming "gently caress YOU, DAD!".
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Feb 16, 2017 07:27
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Fulchrum posted:Yeah, human rights, the environment, the concept of democracy itself, all of that needs to take a back seat to screaming "gently caress YOU, DAD!". Voting for the lesser of two evils while the Democrats have gone to utter poo poo since LBJ is what got us Donald Trump. I'm not doing it anymore. I will vote for any Democrats I think will do good, but not because they are a few percentage points less awful than their opponents. Kilroy fucked around with this message at 07:33 on Feb 16, 2017 |
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Feb 16, 2017 07:29
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Unlike the absolutely magnificent accomplishments of the 50 or so Socialist, Greens or "pure leftist" parties in those areas. The single solitary environmental accomplishment the Greens have ever managed is getting Bush elected.
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Feb 16, 2017 07:33
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