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i was a more qualified candidate than either clinton OR trump, thus every one of you fuckers had an ethical obligation to vote for ME
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Feb 16, 2017 17:57
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readingatwork posted:So if Trump ran as the Democrat and the Republicans literally ran Hitler would I still be a terrible person for voting for Jill Stein? Yes.
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Feb 16, 2017 17:58
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Condiv posted:Nope because people may not have realized how hosed up trump was, what with being detached non voters. His entire loving gimmick was making subtext about race text. It was pretty friggen obvious, dude.
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Feb 16, 2017 17:59
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Dude, the last 200 posts of this thread have been people crying about how they won't ever support the DNC ever again if they choose Perez over Ellison and it all comes back to the same dumb poo poo about how the "left has been serially betrayed by the Evil Clinton Establishment." It's the fuckin heart of the issue. You're seriously this upset because people feel betrayed rather than just let down by Bill Clinton 20 years ago? You're literally debating whether he showed up as a centrist or made some concession to the left in nineteen ninety loving two. We all agree that he ended up a right wing shitheel so same difference, who cares, let's move the gently caress on already christ.
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Feb 16, 2017 17:59
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:His entire loving gimmick was making subtext about race text. It was pretty friggen obvious, dude. To a dyed in the wool dem maybe. Why would detached non-voters tune in to a trump rally or debate though?
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Feb 16, 2017 18:01
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Condiv posted:Nope because people may not have realized how hosed up trump was, what with being detached non voters. This is nonsense. Everyone knew what Trump was and his voters either agreed with him or willingly looked the other way.
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Feb 16, 2017 18:01
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:You're seriously this upset because people feel betrayed rather than just let down by Bill Clinton 20 years ago? You're literally debating whether he showed up as a centrist or made some concession to the left in nineteen ninety loving two. We all agree that he ended up a right wing shitheel so same difference, who cares, let's move the gently caress on already christ. I am annoyed because people continue to act like they've gotten absolutely nothing from the party. I am annoyed because people are saying they'd rather stay home than vote for someone they don't agree 100%, enabling fascist, racist monsters to take control of their government. So yeah I care. I care because we had a candidate running openly on a platform of racial, social and economic justice and a bunch of loving assholes wanted to say "but democrats are just as bad." I don't know, maybe being someone who knows what it feels like to actually be oppressed for no other reason than I was born liking men instead of women, makes it easier for me to see how insanely privileged it is to go "but both sides are bad." Condiv posted:To a dyed in the wool dem maybe. Why would detached non-voters tune in to a trump rally or debate though? "Mexicans are all rapists and are taking your jobs" is uh, pretty loving obvious.
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Feb 16, 2017 18:03
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mcmagic posted:This is nonsense. Everyone knew what Trump was and his voters either agreed with him or willingly looked the other way. Lol really? The populace is perfectly informed and not swamped in a stew of fake news and disinformation?
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Feb 16, 2017 18:03
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Condiv posted:To a dyed in the wool dem maybe. Why would detached non-voters tune in to a trump rally or debate though? You're confusing not being aware of a candidate's racism for explicitly participating in a racist system and hell, enjoying that they get to do so
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Feb 16, 2017 18:05
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Condiv posted:Lol really? The populace is perfectly informed and not swamped in a stew of fake news and disinformation? You don't need to be perfectly informed to know what Trump is.
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Feb 16, 2017 18:05
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the party has given us president trump and republican control of at least two branches of government with the third looking ever more likely. the current leadership is not working and it's time for a change before it's too late. is Ellison the end all be all of that change? No, but he's step number loving one and a symbol that the national party is willing to change its ways
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Feb 16, 2017 18:07
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:"Mexicans are all rapists and are taking your jobs" is uh, pretty loving obvious. Yes, that's why you have people that were even trump supporters who are saying poo poo like "I didn't realize he'd be like this!" I doubt the populace in general was as informed on the election as you bngl.
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Feb 16, 2017 18:08
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Raskolnikov38 posted:the party has given us president trump and republican control of at least two branches of government with the third looking ever more likely. the current leadership is not working and it's time for a change before it's too late. is Ellison the end all be all of that change? No, but he's step number loving one and a symbol that the national party is willing to change its ways Except you're ignoring that Perez wants to make those same exact changes. You've just decided it was symbol absent any actual proof because you care more about symbolic action than actual action.
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Feb 16, 2017 18:09
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https://twitter.com/kailanikm/status/832275245578981376 loving disgusting. I want to know what Ellison/Perez are going to do to discipline this kind of action.
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Feb 16, 2017 18:09
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Condiv posted:Yes, that's why you have people that were even trump supporters who are saying poo poo like "I didn't realize he'd be like this!" I doubt the populace in general was as informed on the election as you bngl. They're lying? mcmagic posted:https://twitter.com/kailanikm/status/832275245578981376 And in no way shocking; again good luck finding someone to primary him only to lose to Evan Jenkins who will vote for everything they want, not just some of it. The DNC chair can't really do anything. The DSCC could, in theory, decline to support them in re-election bids, but that's asking for people who legitimately worse. BI NOW GAY LATER fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Feb 16, 2017 |
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Feb 16, 2017 18:09
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Condiv posted:Yes, that's why you have people that were even trump supporters who are saying poo poo like "I didn't realize he'd be like this!" I doubt the populace in general was as informed on the election as you bngl. They are willfully ignorant. BI NOW GAY LATER posted:They're lying? They will both probably lose anyway. Having one of their heads on a spike wouldn't be a bad thing. The dems aren't taking back the Senate in 18 anyway.
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Feb 16, 2017 18:10
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Except you're ignoring that Perez wants to make those same exact changes. You've just decided it was symbol absent any actual proof because you care more about symbolic action than actual action. well if they're both the same why not pick the one who is also symbolic other than the leadership having their heads up their asses
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Feb 16, 2017 18:12
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Chelb posted:You're confusing not being aware of a candidate's racism for explicitly participating in a racist system and hell, enjoying that they get to do so Choosing not to vote is not participating in a racist system or enjoying doing so. mcmagic posted:You don't need to be perfectly informed to know what Trump is. And yet a lot of trump supporters didn't realize what he is. Hell, a lot of people didn't know trump was a serial con man despite it being quite obvious and reported on. You're overestimating how well informed the populace is
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Feb 16, 2017 18:12
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mcmagic posted:They will both probably lose anyway. Having one of their heads on a spike wouldn't be a bad thing. The dems aren't taking back the Senate in 18 anyway. I think Manchin will circle the wagons and beat Jenkins, tbh. It will be close, but I think he'll win. He knows how to campaign here and how to gut an opponent. He'll also have the Governor at his back, since Justice is basically a Manchin Shadow Governor anyway. Raskolnikov38 posted:well if they're both the same why not pick the one who is also symbolic other than the leadership having their heads up their asses Because it's not? Perez is supported by a cross-section of people who aren't "establishment" and people who are "establishment." So is Ellison. And the whole thing is being voted on by the party Establishment anyway. There's near-zero difference in the two of them and the really big systemic change you guys want isn't going to happen with either them anyway. BI NOW GAY LATER fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Feb 16, 2017 |
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Feb 16, 2017 18:14
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It's weird how Hillary hosed up by spending all her time portraying Trump as a racist sexual predator, but the electorate was still widely ignorant of him being a racist sexual predator. If Hillary had instead spent all her time articulating her progressive policy positions, the electorate would have realized the importance of voting for democrats, because apparently campaigning on issues only affects the electorate in counterfactuals where democrats are terrible.
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Feb 16, 2017 18:15
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mcmagic posted:They are willfully ignorant. Ok you win, America is unethical and loves trump. We will never win again because a well informed populace chose evil and will continue to choose evil.
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Feb 16, 2017 18:16
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Condiv posted:It's not the trolley problem because by throwing the switch for the lesser evil, you encourage them to keep tying people to the tracks. This implies voters have a lot more power than we do. They don't put up bad candidates because we keep voting for them, they do it because nobody is in a position to stop them elsewhere in the system. The only modern examples we have of party support collapsing, for the Republicans in the '30s and Democrats in the '80s, it produced massively worse candidates, not better candidates.
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Feb 16, 2017 18:17
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Did Hillary, and the Dems, do too much or too little to tell people that Donald Trump was an awful human being who campaigned on hate? Do y'all remember when imprisoning his political opponent was a serious topic of discussion? You cannot look at the modern day American political system, believe that apathetic bystanders were simply uninformed as to his bigotry, and be intellectually credible. There was evidence of it on every news channel, every news website, and on every square inch of trump's words and actions. Condiv posted:Choosing not to vote is not participating in a racist system or enjoying doing so. You're right, not voting is not by itself, an endorsement of racism. Not voting against one of the most spiteful popular figures in recent memory is. Not acting is as important as acting, and by not acting against Donald Trump you are complicit in his rise.
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Feb 16, 2017 18:19
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Lightning Knight posted:This implies voters have a lot more power than we do. They don't put up bad candidates because we keep voting for them, they do it because nobody is in a position to stop them elsewhere in the system. The only modern examples we have of party support collapsing, for the Republicans in the '30s and Democrats in the '80s, it produced massively worse candidates, not better candidates. No, Hillary quite deliberately chose to try to attract republicans because she thought her base was captive, which explains why she didn't bother to campaign in the safe blue states she lost and didn't make more efforts to unify the party after the primary
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Feb 16, 2017 18:21
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Condiv posted:Ok you win, America is unethical and loves trump. We will never win again because a well informed populace chose evil and will continue to choose evil. A well informed populace chose Hillary Clinton, and were denied their choice due to the vagaries of the electoral college system (buoyed by rampant voter suppression).
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Feb 16, 2017 18:22
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:I am annoyed because people continue to act like they've gotten absolutely nothing from the party. I am annoyed because people are saying they'd rather stay home than vote for someone they don't agree 100%, enabling fascist, racist monsters to take control of their government. So yeah I care. I care because we had a candidate running openly on a platform of racial, social and economic justice and a bunch of loving assholes wanted to say "but democrats are just as bad." I agree with all of this. I voted for Bernie in the primary, and I actively campaigned for Hillary once she was the nominee, and I was overjoyed that she adopted Bernie's platform wholesale. But we can't continue to support candidates who have no hope of actually selling that platform. Hillary's strategy to win back bernie supporters wasn't to paint a clear, vivid picture of a future that includes civil equality, socialized medicine and education, and strong labor protections. She put it on her website, and went back to her bland narrative of compromise and institution because that's what she knows how to do. I don't doubt she would have enacted that plan if she was president, but neither she nor any other centrist can sell the message, even if they're smart enough to realize that's what the public is asking for. The progressive wing is the way forward, and the purity testing is not necessarily a bad thing. We need to have better internal vetting if we want better candidates and if that means a big loud argument within the party right now, that's a very very small price to pay. We should be overjoyed that Democrats are finally having an internal debate that even considers adopting real leftism.
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Feb 16, 2017 18:22
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Chelb posted:You're right, not voting is not by itself, an endorsement of racism. Not voting against one of the most spiteful popular figures in recent memory is. Not acting is as important as acting, and by not acting against Donald Trump you are complicit in his rise. Nah. This isn't the trolley problem.
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Feb 16, 2017 18:23
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i 100% agree, that anyone who didnt act against donald trump by supporting the only two people who could beat him (bernie sanders and myself) is complicit in his rise to power
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Feb 16, 2017 18:23
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Condiv posted:Nah. This isn't the trolley problem. I don't know if you're conflating me with other posters or if i just can't fathom the depths of stupidity you are operating under
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Feb 16, 2017 18:25
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Chelb posted:A well informed populace chose Hillary Clinton, and were denied their choice due to the vagaries of the electoral college system (buoyed by rampant voter suppression). Nope. The populace chose trump as per your previous post. Those who didn't vote + those who did is a greater proportion of america than wise hillary voters. They're also all unethical and racist so we don't have a chance anymore
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Feb 16, 2017 18:26
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:and the really big systemic change you guys want isn't going to happen with either them anyway. cool, congrats to the gop in 2018 and 2020 then
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Feb 16, 2017 18:26
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Chelb posted:(buoyed by rampant voter suppression). which the DNC did jack poo poo to fight because they were too busy jockeying for positions under prospective presidential campaigns/administrations lol
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Feb 16, 2017 18:27
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:I agree with all of this. I voted for Bernie in the primary, and I actively campaigned for Hillary once she was the nominee, and I was overjoyed that she adopted Bernie's platform wholesale. I don't necessarily disagree with this. I do think Hillary Clinton espoused policies during her campaign that explicitly moved away from her husband, but the bigger questions I have are these: Does Ellison represent the progressive wing? If he does, why doesn't Perez also represent the progressive wing? Whichever candidate becomes DNC chair, can we expect them to be beholden to any progressive wing of the party? Condiv posted:Nope. The populace chose trump as per your previous post. Those who didn't vote + those who did is a greater proportion of america than wise hillary voters. They're also all unethical and racist so we don't have a chance anymore There are many, many millions of Americans who are prevented from voting due to voter ID laws, felony laws, the GOP-led shuttering of polling stations, and through working minimum income dead-end poo poo jobs that provide no time off to vote. All of those count as voter suppression. Are you going to refute that, or are you going to stamp your feet like a child and pretend I'm claiming something I'm not?
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Feb 16, 2017 18:35
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Chelb posted:I don't necessarily disagree with this. I do think Hillary Clinton espoused policies during her campaign that explicitly moved away from her husband, but the bigger questions I have are these: Neither of them represent the progressive wing, but Ellison is explicitly saying that he will shift the fundraising strategy away from big donors. That is the single most important thing the Democrats can do to gain public support. It indicates a move away from the kind of "pity-charity" liberalism that appeals to the very rich and very poor, and a move toward solidarity with the middle class working majority.
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Feb 16, 2017 18:42
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Chelb posted:There are many, many millions of Americans who are prevented from voting due to voter ID laws, felony laws, the GOP-led shuttering of polling stations, and through working minimum income dead-end poo poo jobs that provide no time off to vote. All of those count as voter suppression. We don't have a chance of reversing that because our party no longer has enough power and the vast majority of America is too racist and unethical to let dems win again. quote:Are you going to refute that, or are you going to stamp your feet like a child and pretend I'm claiming something I'm not? I'm not the one who was claiming that every person who abstained from voting is unethical and racist. IMO those voters are dispirited and if dems were willing to put in the work we'd be able to bring them into the party. IMO, the people claiming non voters are unethical are throwing a tantrum. Condiv fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Feb 16, 2017 |
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Feb 16, 2017 18:43
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I suspect some liberal centrist types who make the America is too racist argument are doing so because the idea of the party changing economic policy is too painful for them.
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Feb 16, 2017 18:52
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:Neither of them represent the progressive wing, but Ellison is explicitly saying that he will shift the fundraising strategy away from big donors. That is the single most important thing the Democrats can do to gain public support. It indicates a move away from the kind of "pity-charity" liberalism that appeals to the very rich and very poor, and a move toward solidarity with the middle class working majority. I think this is really overreading what they've both proposed, but again I support Ellison. I am just not going to burn the house down if Perez wins. Crowsbeak posted:I suspect some liberal centrist types who make the America is too racist argument are doing so because the idea of the party changing economic policy is too painful for them. I suspect you're inventing narratives.
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Feb 16, 2017 18:57
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:Neither of them represent the progressive wing, but Ellison is explicitly saying that he will shift the fundraising strategy away from big donors. That is the single most important thing the Democrats can do to gain public support. It indicates a move away from the kind of "pity-charity" liberalism that appeals to the very rich and very poor, and a move toward solidarity with the middle class working majority. The middle class is only the majority if you accept the Federal poverty line as the bar for being poor. In practical terms, people at the median income level of 50-60k a year are a single moderate financial issue away from total economic failure, and that group together with the lower brackets makes up the majority of the country as working poor. The framing of issues around the white, formerly well to do industrial working class of the Midwest ignores the reality of most working people today working in service industry jobs. "The middle class" has been a dogwhistle for white suburbanites for a long time, and framing every single issue in terms of "bring the factory jobs back and make it the '50s again" by every single modern politician, despite their lying, is what put down the ground work for Trump. The path forward is in acknowledging the reality of modern international economies and working to equitably distribute the gains from trade, both at home and abroad, not pining for the days of post war boom industrial middle class white suburbia. I don't disagree with your idea that modern liberalism as a charity pursuit of the rich is bad, just in your framing of the way forward as Bernie's "bring the factories back" rhetoric. The future is in green energy, infrastructure, and wealth redistribution.
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Feb 16, 2017 18:57
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Nevvy Z posted:There isn't a rolleyes big enough for this. People voted for her in the primary. You may not like it but acting as though refusal to appeal to you is the cause of all the nation's woes is incredibly childish.
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Feb 16, 2017 19:01
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:I think this is really overreading what they've both proposed, but again I support Ellison. I am just not going to burn the house down if Perez wins. Really? So would you be in favor of jailing those responsible for 2008, and downsizing the big banks? Plus putting controls on the buisness as a whole?
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Feb 16, 2017 19:01
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