|
Crowsbeak posted:Really? So would you be in favor of jailing those responsible for 2008, and downsizing the big banks? Plus putting controls on the buisness as a whole? Yes?
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:02
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 22, 2024 02:56 |
|
|
There is a very good conversation to have regarding the ethics of voting. We live in a world inundated with information, distorted or otherwise, but the problem isn't that people don't know enough about political candidates. The problem is that they're unwilling to fully consider the importance of political systems, and unwilling to draw the appropriate conclusions from a candidate's message. The reasons behind this are multifaceted and complex, but it shouldn't be difficult to see that those who have no opinions regarding hatred are clearly enabling it through their apathy.Condiv posted:We don't have a chance of reversing that because our party no longer has enough power and the vast majority of America is racist and unethical. Get rid of the unethical part and add "White" before "America", and I'll be glad you agree with me. quote:I'm not the one who was claiming that every person who abstained from voting is unethical and racist. IMO those voters are dispirited and if dems were willing to put in the work we'd be able to bring them into the party. IMO, the people claiming non voters are unethical are throwing a tantrum. Are they dispirited? Let's put ourselves into the shoes of a person who is not being held back from voting due to voter suppression - say, a white male with a decent job that offers enough downtime for him to easily vote. When he read on the news that Donald Trump was recorded bragging about sexually assaulting women, or that he mocked a disabled reporter, or that he insulted the parents of a dead veteran for no reason other than that they find him reprehensible, what do you think he thinks when he decides not to vote? That both sides are equally bad? That what he's heard all around him, very nearly shouted from the rooftops, on TV or the internet, are lies? I can see two options. Either he doesn't understand the effects politics has on himself and on others, or he doesn't care. The first one is something that can potentially be solved through all sorts of ways, from charismatic political messaging to proper education to drawing a few logical conclusions about how cause and effect works. The second one is irredeemable. So now that we've got that out of the way, which one is more prevalent, ignorance or deliberate disinterest? Considering the attitudes white america has had and continues to have regarding people of different races, genders, and religions, and considering that Donald Trump coalesces and expresses verbally those attitudes - the answer is the latter, op.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:02
|
|
|
readingatwork posted:I don't think you realize just how toxic this argument is. Too many cycles of terrible options sours people on democracy itself and makes people like Trump possible in the first place.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:03
|
|
|
There is no ethical voting under capitalism. By design of the system whoever we get will be least bad.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:04
|
|
|
Man, Brainiac Five and Crowsbeak really know how to make threads become bad.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:06
|
|
|
Lightning Knight posted:The middle class is only the majority if you accept the Federal poverty line as the bar for being poor. In practical terms, people at the median income level of 50-60k a year are a single moderate financial issue away from total economic failure, and that group together with the lower brackets makes up the majority of the country as working poor. The fact that the middle class is completely hosed is not lost on me, nor does it alter my point. Lightning Knight posted:I don't disagree with your idea that modern liberalism as a charity pursuit of the rich is bad, just in your framing of the way forward as Bernie's "bring the factories back" rhetoric. The future is in green energy, infrastructure, and wealth redistribution. Bernie's rhetoric has never been "bring the factories back" it's always explicitly been "The future is in green energy, infrastructure, and wealth redistribution". Nor do I want to bring factories back, nor did I say anything of the sort. In fact, I disagree with Bernie about NAFTA, but that's a whole other argument.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:07
|
|
|
Dr. Fishopolis posted:The fact that the middle class is completely hosed is not lost on me, nor does it alter my point. I think we're better served by not using Bernie as template for how to talk about progressive issues to people because I think he lacks the vocabulary to talk about it in a way that's not just shy of Corbynism.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:08
|
|
|
Ytlaya posted:Man, Brainiac Five and Crowsbeak really know how to make threads become bad. Fine I am a bit paranoid when it comes to centrist. Probably shouldn't be. @Bi Bernie is the most popular politician in the country. People like old geezers telling the truth.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:08
|
|
|
Dr. Fishopolis posted:The fact that the middle class is completely hosed is not lost on me, nor does it alter my point. I guess my peeve is that by emphasizing the middle class, we by definition presuppose that there must be a class lower than them to serve as the Other. It buys into the class politics of the right. Otherwise, fair enough.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:10
|
|
|
BI NOW GAY LATER posted:I think we're better served by not using Bernie as template for how to talk about progressive issues to people because I think he lacks the vocabulary to talk about it in a way that's not just shy of Corbynism. If you can show me someone who has been more effective in engaging Americans in progressive politics in recent history, I'll gladly use them instead.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:10
|
|
|
it must be nice being a centrist any leftists that exist within the system are already so compromised that they already mostly toe the party line, so if they win it typically makes no difference. and any potential change or challenge is framed as an existential threat to america that only serves to embolden and strengthen the republican party. not supporting dems, no matter how lovely is unethical and opens all outsiders to vicious attacks. its a pretty ideal situation for smug morons who can't see any perspective outside of their own limited wolrdview. downplaying the relative importance of this race and the messaging of either candidates' election is comically naive. there wouldn't be two candidate supported by two of the biggest names in the party, former vice-president biden and bernie sanders, if the outcome didn't matter at all. it wouldn't be a race and there wouldn't be any coverage. but there is. the outcome of this election indeed has value, whether or not you choose to see it. lashing out at anyone who didn't support clinton as "equally immoral as donald trump" is loving stupid. hillary was a bad candidate that people historically didn't like, nor trusted. the responsibility for the outcome of this election lays with the party that provided the choices, not the voters who either accepted or rejected that choice. people, even very smart and capable people, do not follow politics at nearly the same rate as people who post in D&D. the major media outlets were telling them everything was fine and the status quo would be maintained. virtually everyone was shocked at the outcome of the election, even those of us who thought there was a chance hillary could blow it. stop trying to shift the blame. the blame for the loss is on the loser and the party that supported her. she chose to run her campaign the way she did and it ultimately failed to inspire voters to show up and vote for her in the right places. Chelb posted:A well informed populace chose Hillary Clinton, and were denied their choice due to the vagaries of the electoral college system (buoyed by rampant voter suppression). this is such bullshit. there are no "vagaries of the electoral college system." hillary clinton, the most qualified and capable candidate in history was well aware of the rules of the game she was playing. the responsibility for losing the way she did is on her. all of this deflection is so stupid and disappointing. when republicans lose we blame republicans straight up, every time. there were threads in this subforum about how the party was doomed and would soon implode. not because of voters, but because of the leadership. nowadays we have democrats unironically labeling opposing politicians as russian puppets and buying into moronic conspiracy theories like this is a new cold war. no one bats an eye at the thought that the most powerful nation in the world who is currently keeping tabs on virtually all global communication is suddenly and completely out of the blue total under the influence russian infiltration and we are powerless to oppose it. suddenly everyone is a deep cover russian agent. its totally insane and crazy. the world is more interconnected than ever. of course you can find tenuous links between powerful people in the two most powerful countries on the planet. but the idea that putin is puppet master pulling the strings of world policy is insane. what on earth does he have to offer these people? there is no great ideological difference that could sway people. american politics is already so corrupt and drowning in money that these leaders are already incredibly well off financially. what on earth does vladmir putin have to offer vast swathes of high ranking american officials? anyway, its no surprise that its the same people lambasting anyone who wants change and using empty, vicious attacks to defend their failing position. the democrats have failed on every level for decades, barring a bare minimum ultimately fruitless victories. the way people defend them here is remarkable.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:11
|
|
|
Dr. Fishopolis posted:If you can show me someone who has been more effective in engaging Americans in progressive politics in recent history, I'll gladly use them instead. I don't think he's been all that effective. I think he's useful to look at, but I don't think he's the blueprint to follow.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:13
|
|
|
Condiv posted:Choosing not to vote is not participating in a racist system or enjoying doing so. They realize. They just don't care for whatever reason.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:13
|
|
|
I think the problem with emphasis on the middle class is it creates a atmosphere where people not of the middle class can be looked down upon as though the fact they are not middle class is somehow their fault.BI NOW GAY LATER posted:I don't think he's been all that effective. Well he forced Hillary to the left. He is the most popular politician in America. Saying you're a socialist is no longer a dirty word. He has had three national tow halls that have been well watched. Seems pretty effective to me. I remember Paul Wellstone a man to the right of Bernie never getting this kind of coverage . Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Feb 16, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:13
|
|
|
Lightning Knight posted:I guess my peeve is that by emphasizing the middle class, we by definition presuppose that there must be a class lower than them to serve as the Other. It buys into the class politics of the right. The thing we need to shift is the idea that solidarity with the middle class necessarily means "at the expense of the poor". We can't do that if we don't acknowledge the identity of the middle class. We can't change class politics by pretending they don't exist.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:14
|
|
|
RaySmuckles posted:nowadays we have democrats unironically labeling opposing politicians as russian puppets and buying into moronic conspiracy theories like this is a new cold war. no one bats an eye at the thought that the most powerful nation in the world who is currently keeping tabs on virtually all global communication is suddenly and completely out of the blue total under the influence russian infiltration and we are powerless to oppose it. suddenly everyone is a deep cover russian agent. its totally insane and crazy. the world is more interconnected than ever. of course you can find tenuous links between powerful people in the two most powerful countries on the planet. but the idea that putin is puppet master pulling the strings of world policy is insane. well, trump is a russian puppet tho
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:14
|
|
|
BI NOW GAY LATER posted:I don't think he's been all that effective. I can't really process how you could possibly think that. Is there an alternative progressive politician whose success you think the DNC should model?
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:15
|
|
|
Dr. Fishopolis posted:. Bullshit. quote:7. Trade Policies that Benefit American Workers
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:19
|
|
|
Dr. Fishopolis posted:I can't really process how you could possibly think that. Is there an alternative progressive politician whose success you think the DNC should model? I think Liz Warren is a great person to talk to about the future of the party. Again, I think we can take lessons from Bernie's primary run, but I don't think he's the end-all-be-all model for how to make people care about progressive policies. Like I said, he lacked the vocabulary to really talk about progressive policy outside of his niche -- and that's an opinion that people far lefter than me (Jacobin!) have also agreed with. It's basically the same thing I said about Howard Dean. There were a lot of things Howard Dean did in 2004 that Democrats needed to and did learn from, in terms of how to fundraise. We can do a lot of that with Bernie, but we also have to accept that there limitations to what he did and how did them.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:19
|
|
|
Yeah who is more effective than Sanders? Warren is loved by the left but she has never been able to connect the way Bernie has. I mean I personally think Keith's great but I know he turns some people off. So who is more effective?
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:19
|
|
|
Dr. Fishopolis posted:The thing we need to shift is the idea that solidarity with the middle class necessarily means "at the expense of the poor". We can't do that if we don't acknowledge the identity of the middle class. We can't change class politics by pretending they don't exist. Then how do you escape the reality that the American middle class is overwhelmingly spiteful and hateful towards the poor?
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:21
|
|
|
Crowsbeak posted:Yeah who is more effective than Sanders? Warren is loved by the left but she has never been able to connect the way Bernie has. I mean I personally think Keith's great but I know he turns some people off. So who is more effective? It's not jsut about whose loved by "the left." Like it or not, the Left isn't the only voting block you need to win the Presidency. You need to be able to talk about leftist policy goals in a way that connects to the broader party. Of course, I wonder what else about Keith and Liz might turn people off that Bernie has going for him... 
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:22
|
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:Bullshit. Decrying the loss of American manufacturing and advocating trade policies that encourage american companies to stop outsourcing is not the same thing as advocating bringing factories back.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:24
|
|
|
RaySmuckles posted:nowadays we have democrats unironically labeling opposing politicians as russian puppets and buying into moronic conspiracy theories like this is a new cold war. no one bats an eye at the thought that the most powerful nation in the world who is currently keeping tabs on virtually all global communication is suddenly and completely out of the blue total under the influence russian infiltration and we are powerless to oppose it. suddenly everyone is a deep cover russian agent. its totally insane and crazy. the world is more interconnected than ever. of course you can find tenuous links between powerful people in the two most powerful countries on the planet. but the idea that putin is puppet master pulling the strings of world policy is insane. This idiotic concern trolling from the left helped trump in the campaign and it's helping him now. Crowsbeak posted:Yeah who is more effective than Sanders? Warren is loved by the left but she has never been able to connect the way Bernie has. I mean I personally think Keith's great but I know he turns some people off. So who is more effective? Unlike warren, Bernie has never faced serious republican opposition. Indeed Trump and Russia acted strategically to elevate him as a way to encourage divisions in the Democratic Party.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:25
|
|
|
Chelb posted:There is a very good conversation to have regarding the ethics of voting. We live in a world inundated with information, distorted or otherwise, but the problem isn't that people don't know enough about political candidates. The problem is that they're unwilling to fully consider the importance of political systems, and unwilling to draw the appropriate conclusions from a candidate's message. The reasons behind this are multifaceted and complex, but it shouldn't be difficult to see that those who have no opinions regarding hatred are clearly enabling it through their apathy. if you don't believe people who abstain from voting are unethical why are you butting into an argument about whether or not they are unethical? in any case, you think white america is too racist to vote for dems, so you still think the situation is hopeless. i think it's an idiotic and hopeless viewpoint. mcmagic posted:They realize. They just don't care for whatever reason. you already said the reason. they are unethical. america is unethical. and that's why dems will never win again.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:26
|
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:This idiotic concern trolling from the left helped trump in the campaign and it's helping him now. I too think its idiotic to point out that our president has been compromised by a foreign government, repeatedly.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:27
|
|
|
Dr. Fishopolis posted:Decrying the loss of American manufacturing and advocating trade policies that encourage american companies to stop outsourcing is not the same thing as advocating bringing factories back. He's obviously talking about creating trade policies that will rebuild American manufacturing. If that really wasn't his intention, then he hosed up real bad and inadvertantly primed the rust belt to fall for trump.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:27
|
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:He's obviously talking about creating trade policies that will rebuild American manufacturing. If that really wasn't his intention, then he hosed up real bad and inadvertantly primed the rust belt to fall for trump. Oh he absolutely leans into that poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:28
|
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:Unlike warren, Bernie has never faced serious republican opposition. Indeed Trump and Russia acted strategically to elevate him as a way to encourage divisions in the Democratic Party. The Russians tried to help Bernie is a reach even for you. Also lol at any progressive who doesn't think Trump is in bed with Russia and also thinks Russia isn't an enemy of the left with its funding of right wing populists through the West.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:28
|
|
|
BI NOW GAY LATER posted:It's not jsut about whose loved by "the left." Like it or not, the Left isn't the only voting block you need to win the Presidency. You need to be able to talk about leftist policy goals in a way that connects to the broader party. Keith definitely has racism going against him. Liz? Some sexism but she frankly is not the most charismatic women. She could learn from a monster like Tulsi. Also Bernie isn't just liked on the left or he would not be the most liked politician in America. Also lol at Bernie being elevated by Russia.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:28
|
|
|
BI NOW GAY LATER posted:I too think its idiotic to point out that our president has been compromised by a foreign government, repeatedly. That's not what just happened in this conversation.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:28
|
|
|
Lightning Knight posted:Then how do you escape the reality that the American middle class is overwhelmingly spiteful and hateful towards the poor? It doesn't matter as much as you think it does. The Republicans feed that hatred because they have nothing else to offer. The middle class knows the Republicans are loving them, but at least they're showing up and pretending to listen. The middle class will vote in its own best interest when it's provided an opportunity and narrative to grab onto.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:29
|
|
|
Crowsbeak posted:Keith definitely has racism going against him. Liz? Some sexism but she frankly is not the most charismatic women. She could learn from a monster like Tulsi. Also Bernie isn't just liked on the left or he would not be the most liked politician in America. Oh jesus christ.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:30
|
|
|
BI NOW GAY LATER posted:And in no way shocking; again good luck finding someone to primary him only to lose to Evan Jenkins who will vote for everything they want, not just some of it. When you vote for a Republican you know what you're getting; sure you might get a John McCain instead of a Jeff Sessions, but they're pretty much going to vote the same way anyhow. We'd have to be deep in Nazi territory before the differences between those two became apparent, so for American politics over the last couple decades GOP candidates have been pretty much interchangeable on policy grounds. To me that is a huge advantage because it means that Republican voters are comfortable voting for whoever the GOP puts forward because they know: they agree with the GOP national platform, they know this person they are voting for will vote consistently to advance that platform, they know (and this is important!) that other GOP politicians running for office elsewhere will also reliably vote to advance that platform. The GOP is, in some sense, the only serious national political party in the United States, with the Democrats being more like a politicians guild. If you vote for a Democrat, even if you know the person you're voting for well enough to know they're pretty in-line with the party platform and will work to support it, it's still a crapshoot. You know the Democrats will need larger majorities in Congress to advance their agenda to the same degree the GOP would, because the party is more fragmented. You know that plenty of other Democrats will be actively working against this person you're voting for. And, if you don't know the candidate that well or you don't trust them that much, even if you're in a safe blue district for all you know you're voting for another Feinstein. All of this works to sap support from Democrats and lower turnout. So in the case of Manchin, Heitkamp, et al, basically the heirs of Lieberman, it seems to me that cutting them loose could help the party nationally. It could make the party more focused and more cohesive, and better able to present a coherent and believable message to voters nationally. Democrats in every race local to national and countrywide could rely on the reputation of the party the way Republicans do right now, instead of always having to win purely on their own merits. To paraphrase Schumer, for every Manchin we cut loose in a red state we pick up two Tim Ryans in purple states.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:30
|
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:He's obviously talking about creating trade policies that will rebuild American manufacturing. If that really wasn't his intention, then he hosed up real bad and inadvertantly primed the rust belt to fall for trump. Where did he do that? What speech?
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:31
|
|
|
Dr. Fishopolis posted:It doesn't matter as much as you think it does. The Republicans feed that hatred because they have nothing else to offer. The middle class knows the Republicans are loving them, but at least they're showing up and pretending to listen. The middle class will vote in its own best interest when it's provided an opportunity and narrative to grab onto. I'm asking honestly. I grew up in suburban Wisconsin, Paul Ryan's district. The people you're talking about are the people I live and work with, and I have tried every manner of convincing people I talk to that poor people aren't lazy or undeserving and are just victims of a system. Protestant work ethic Calvinist bullshit is very, very pervasive.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:32
|
|
|
Lightning Knight posted:The Russians tried to help Bernie is a reach even for you. Trump repeatedly praised Bernie on the campaign trail and talked about how unfairly he'd been treated by the DNC and Clinton. In concert with the hacked podesta emails, it was a naked attempt to ratfuck us and it worked like a charm.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:32
|
|
|
Dr. Fishopolis posted:It doesn't matter as much as you think it does. The Republicans feed that hatred because they have nothing else to offer. The middle class knows the Republicans are loving them, but at least they're showing up and pretending to listen. The middle class will vote in its own best interest when it's provided an opportunity and narrative to grab onto. This why I prefer working class. I know plenty of people who ID as middle class but also I'd as working class. I also know people who only ID as the latter. Now plenty are spiteful but if you can make them id as the latter first you can prevent division. Also lol now Bernie getting anywhere is a conspiracy.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:33
|
|
|
Dr. Fishopolis posted:Where did he do that? What speech? It takes willful ignorance to look at that quote and not see the implication.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:34
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 22, 2024 02:56 |
|
|
Condiv posted:if you don't believe people who abstain from voting are unethical why are you butting into an argument about whether or not they are unethical? congrats on answering a truncated post and presuming that me saying white americans are racist means that they're permanently opposed to democratic messaging, and not that modern leftist movements have no reliable safeguards against ideologies built upon vocal hate 
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 19:36
|
|