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Fangz posted:I'm not saying you defend them. I'm saying you let them pass when surely you shouldn't. That normalises them. I'll be honest, I hadn't been reading this thread during the vote in the commons because it was moving quite fast and was mostly a hang-wringing exercise. If you have examples of bad arguments you're talking about I'm happy to denounce 'em.
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Feb 17, 2017 15:53
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awesome-express posted:I've been trying to come up with an answer, retyping it 3 times now, but every iteration included something vaguely racist so maybe I need to rethink my reasoning. Looking back at it I realise the question sounds like more of a dickish "gotcha" than I intended. My point was more that borders are taken as granted, just part of society, in much the same way that capitalism is. And much like I feel capitalism is pretty bad, I wonder if we shouldn't spend more time thinking about whether nation states, and putting up borders like that are actually good things or not. Take this country. We're well off. Unequal, but the vast majority of people have a roof over their head, easy access to fresh water, indoor plumbing, central heating, food. There are also vast parts of the country which are empty. Obviously we (the thread, rather than you & me personally) recently had a discussion about paving over the countryside so let's not rehash that, but it's hard to live in the Highlands & not notice quite how vast & empty they are. Highland Council's area is larger than Belgium, a country of 11 million, but with a population of under 250,000 (& that's without going into rural Argyll, Moray, Aberdeenshire, & Perthshire). I'm not suggesting building a city on top of Ben Nevis or in the middle of Rannoch Moor, but I'm also saying we're not exactly running low on space. There are islands practically begging for people to come live there. Meanwhile, sub-Saharan Africa becomes even more inhospitable as the desert expands, there's less land available for harvesting food, water becomes scarcer. Which all leads to increased famine, increased conflict, and a whole lot of poor people dying. Obviously the solution isn't uplift everyone from Mauritania to Somalia & move them all to rural Scotland, but I'm not sure the disruption caused would actually be worse than the disruption caused for people who live in areas like the Sahel while (mainly western caused) climate change continues to gently caress things up bad there. I get that humans are tribal, but that doesn't mean we should give in to our base instincts.
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Feb 17, 2017 15:55
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Beyond the EU deal minutiae which is still ongoing, trade deals with the US will probably be the next pressure point. Then you've got ECHR issues, controls on immigration from non-EU countries...Tesseraction posted:I'll be honest, I hadn't been reading this thread during the vote in the commons because it was moving quite fast and was mostly a hang-wringing exercise. If you have examples of bad arguments you're talking about I'm happy to denounce 'em. You don't have to scroll back terribly far to see them.
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Feb 17, 2017 15:56
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Fangz posted:You don't have to scroll back terribly far to see them. Man, are you even aware how lazy I am?
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Feb 17, 2017 16:01
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If people want to fight hard for continued EU membership then power to you, i'm just real tired of being told that myself and Labour is betraying the country to the far-right because of a commons vote for which Labour is in basically the worst possible situation a political party could be in. Like, this is not a simple situation at all, even the Lib Dems couldn't all 9 of their members to vote against A50. Basically Tesseraction posted:Corbyn's actions are not beyond criticism but this is hardly the betrayal of 'socialist values' or the like that you've made it out to be.
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Feb 17, 2017 16:03
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jabby posted:For the first, you clearly shouldn't support a national referendum which promises to act on a simple majority if you plan to vote with your constituency rather than the national outcome. At best that's misleading the public. This is not in the text of the EU referendum act 2015, so you're going off expectations rather than the MP in question's voting record. Unless they have previous public statements on the subject, they can explain their own expectations about how a national election and a constituency level democratic representation should interact. Personally I don't think it is fundamentally against the spirit of the referendum to vote in favour of the result that was the majority amongst those who you represent. quote:For the second, everyone knows politicians lie and it strains credulity to pretend you thought the referendum would be fought honestly. It also leaves you essentially claiming that the public got it wrong so the vote doesn't count, because no-one will believe you'd have the same complaints about the process if you'd won. The public got it wrong, sure. That is indeed what you would be claiming. If you're making that argument then you would be looking at specific examples of why this was such an extraordinarily bad process, and a set of contrasts to draw upon to show what your expectations were when you voted for the referendum bill. Luckily, there are numerous examples of less hostile and shambolic referendums or votes, and better planned changes. Without going international there have been several recent referendums in Britain. The initial referendum to join the European Union. The Scottish independence referendum. The AV referendum. In addition you have lots of other large scale public consultations, like the New Labour votes on increased regional power, the Tory votes on city Mayors, and the introduction of Police Commissioners. The EU referendum was unique amongst all of those. There was a political killing, a massive spike in hate crimes and a series of attacks on institutions like the courts. It is a terrifying time, completely without precedent within the existing body of British politics.
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Feb 17, 2017 16:04
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Tesseraction posted:Man, are you even aware how lazy I am? Given that you kept up this argument with me, seems questionable to plead laziness now. "Looking for arguments Tess thinks are nonsense" will be a much easier job for you than me.
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Feb 17, 2017 16:08
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Undead Hippo posted:The EU referendum was unique amongst all of those. There was a political killing, a massive spike in hate crimes and a series of attacks on institutions like the courts. It is a terrifying time, completely without precedent within the existing body of British politics. The 1973 Northern Ireland sovereignty referendum saw a spike in violence, political killings and a literal attack on the old bailey 
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Feb 17, 2017 16:10
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kustomkarkommando posted:The 1973 Northern Ireland sovereignty referendum saw a spike in violence, political killings and a literal attack on the old bailey Fair. But I would also call the Troubles a terrifying prospect.
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Feb 17, 2017 16:15
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Fangz posted:Given that you kept up this argument with me, seems questionable to plead laziness now. Occasionally hitting F5 and replying off the top of my head ain't effort bruv. I'll look later I guess
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Feb 17, 2017 16:18
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Speaking of terrifying times, let's see what Trump's up to today https://twitter.com/AP/status/832608704855937024
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Feb 17, 2017 16:24
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I'm definitely late to this but holy gently caress does Nuttall look like Eddie Hitler from Bottom. Satire and farcical comedies really are the textbooks of modern politics aren't they?
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Feb 17, 2017 16:27
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Tesseraction posted:The EU is not a socialist institution, and most hardcore socialist parties opposed it, the membership voted for Corbyn over Owen "Second Referendum" Smith, and going by constituencies leave won with a near-supermajority. I'm not sure how you can square democratic values with your argument, although if you're up for a revolution leading to socialist dictatorship in exchange for remaining in the EU then you're not getting any disagreement from me. These hardcore socialist parties you speak of are a joke. Who cares what the dozens of SWP think?
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Feb 17, 2017 16:54
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Speaking of Nuttall. *cuts onion*  Ukip leader Paul Nuttall cries after apologising for Hillsborough claims posted:Stoke Central by-election candidate removes glasses, wipes away tear and confesses to being 'overwhelmed' by faithful's applause
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Feb 17, 2017 16:57
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Cerv posted:These hardcore socialist parties you speak of are a joke. Who cares what the dozens of SWP think? No-one cares what the SWP think. Not even the SWP.
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Feb 17, 2017 17:04
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The SWP is great at turning up at demos and handing out placards with their branding on to anyone who'll take one.
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Feb 17, 2017 17:18
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Do they have any anti Corbyn placards?
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Feb 17, 2017 17:22
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Pesky Splinter posted:Speaking of Nuttall.
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Feb 17, 2017 17:32
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Paxman posted:The SWP is great at turning up at demos and handing out placards with their branding on to anyone who'll take one. And covering up rape.
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Feb 17, 2017 17:35
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forkboy84 posted:And covering up rape. That goes for a fair number of the socialist parties, sadly
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Feb 17, 2017 17:36
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My girlfriend is involved with a small communist group thing. They're apparently under no illusion about how little clout they have but really they just seem to like reading and chatting to each other. Anyway they still try to get out there occasionally to have a small presence by organising talks and protests and whstnot. But by christ do they hate the SWP, who apparently barge in on everything and try to take credit for the moderately successful things while ruining everything else. Apparently they actually have a bunch of money and resources and people to do this, which surprises me because I always assumed it's membership was in the double figures at best. I wonder where it comes from?
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Feb 17, 2017 17:37
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Guavanaut posted:Paul Nuttall picked fans' pockets and urinated on medics at UKIP conference. I wonder if he's just really insecure about having been called nutter in school.
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Feb 17, 2017 17:40
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I think we all know the real reason for Corbyns unpopularity with the British public (he's not racist and doesn't hate immigrants)
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Feb 17, 2017 17:43
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https://twitter.com/ukip/status/832591341955739648
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Feb 17, 2017 17:49
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ThomasPaine posted:I wonder where it comes from?
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Feb 17, 2017 17:49
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I think it's because he has the leadership ability and charisma of a cheese sandwich.
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Feb 17, 2017 17:49
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I swear if they hadn't done a whole 'ban the incandescent' thing when lovely CFLs were the height of technology and LED bulbs were pretty much industrial only, this 'fight back' would never have happened. Yeah, there'd have been a few more years of people using incandescents, which is bad, but if instead they'd gone for waiting for LED lights to mature and done a 'now you're cooking with gas'/'lighting the way' campaign people would have moved over to LEDs and thought themselves smart for doing so.
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Feb 17, 2017 17:56
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My incandescent bulbs go pop all the time and I should probably replace them. Is there a particular type of LED bulb I should look for?
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Feb 17, 2017 18:04
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Screwfix have cheap ones.
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Feb 17, 2017 18:10
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mfcrocker posted:That goes for a fair number of the socialist parties, sadly Not to mention several recent governments.
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Feb 17, 2017 18:14
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https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/832639966823927809 Brutal.
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Feb 17, 2017 18:17
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If they campaign to bring back proper metal dustbins so as what these lazy bastard binmen of today has to do a proper day's work then frankly they'll have my vote. 
crispix fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Feb 17, 2017 |
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Feb 17, 2017 18:19
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Pantsuit posted:I think we all know the real reason for Corbyns unpopularity with the British public (he's not racist and doesn't hate immigrants) I just got an email from Tony Blair saying "we have to stop Brexit At Any Cost" The "at any cost" here being brown people I assume
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Feb 17, 2017 18:20
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No change on dont knows ain't great, and obviously I wish we had an opposition peformance similar to what we've seen in the past, but no politics we're dealing with is similar to brexit, in terms of what we've seen in the past. There's is a piece of ground to work on from here. Can he do it? Not without the support of the PLP.
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Feb 17, 2017 18:20
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Guavanaut posted:They're all institutional landlords. How do you mean?
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Feb 17, 2017 18:23
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ThomasPaine posted:How do you mean? (I have no idea if that's the case, but it would be amusing if so.)
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Feb 17, 2017 18:32
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MikeCrotch posted:I just got an email from Tony Blair saying "we have to stop Brexit At Any Cost" Do you expect Corbyn to take a stand for non-EU immigration?
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Feb 17, 2017 18:34
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Fangz posted:Do you expect Corbyn to take a stand for non-EU immigration? Frankly there isn't much of anywhere left to go against non-EU immigration. Annual caps and American-style lottery maybe. e: I suppose you could make immigration much more of a lovely deal by removing the pathway to leave-to-stay/permanent residence/citizenship. Right now that's partly based on EU regulations but with Brexit it seems like an option. Under the current rules that would mean you could only spend 5 of any given 10 years in the UK, with no hope of any permanence except by marriage. I imagine that would discourage a lot of employment-related immigration. Private Speech fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Feb 17, 2017 |
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Feb 17, 2017 18:42
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Guavanaut posted:Hi mean they all make their money through capital returns on the houses and shops they own. Their property portfolio isn't actually that much, and is mostly offices they use themselves rather than charge rent for. Instead they've got a bunch of will bequests and trusts to subsidise the fund raising and appeals they do at most meetings as well as member subscriptions.
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Feb 17, 2017 18:48
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https://twitter.com/TechnicallyRon/status/832191913994358785
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