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Zack Ater posted:I had been thinking about this for a while. Obviously chunks of these stories don't actually happen (or are, at least, distractingly embellished), because magic is of course not real The rules I've been going by are: 1) Anything with obvious magic poo poo (including the butterflies, bunny girls, seven sisters, etc.) is fake. 2) Anything in the "meta-world" is fake. By "fake", I mean that it as at least been embellished; it could be 90% true or 10%; at best it's a real scene with guns traded out for stakes, and at worst it's something where the things that happen are only psychologically or symbolically valid. I don't think we should completely throw away scenes; they're trying to tell us something, even if they didn't happen exactly the way the story says. Edit: Beatrice said that an "instant" death is one where the victim isn't able to take any action after the moment of the murder, I believe. So if I stab you in the heart, it might take a couple of seconds for you to die, but that's instantaneous enough for her. 
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Feb 16, 2017 16:13
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But I feel like there ought to be some sort of consistency in what we consider to not have happened.
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Speaking of real and fake, I don't think it's been mentioned yet that Virgilia appeared with the other spirits- separate from Kumasawa. What does that mean? If Virgilia isn't Kumasawa, that means she was only pretending to be Kumasawa last Episode, while the real Kumasawa was killed off-screen... and if she is Kumasawa, then this entire scene is another flourish, and Kumasawa might still be an accomplice. drat, if Kumasawa and Virgilia are separate entities, that complicates some narratives about the "legend" of Beatrice and how it fits in with what is known about Kuwadorian and the girl Rosa met there. And then there's this weird bit.ProfessorProf posted:
This sounds like Virgilia's supporting Battler, but her help all last Episode was part of the North Wind and Sun strategy, at least the thought goes... Ronove has been portrayed as a neutral party with no skin in this game, so whenever he speaks up for Battler, I don't really see it as a surprise, so what's Virgilia's angle? If she's the victim of coercion and being forced to be involved, she sure didn't look it last episode; she was having as much of a blast as Beatrice, if not more, with kicking around Battler... is she, like Beato, playing a part that merely changes with the Episodes? And- !!! Wait a minute, hold everything... why the hell is Kinzo referring to her as Virgilia? Virgilia was just a name that she came up with last Episode so Battler could call her a name instead of "Thing" or "Hey You" (which Kinzo shouldn't have known about, being dead at the time and not in Purgatory)... and before she was known as the former Beatrice. So why isn't Kinzo calling her the former Beatrice, or some other drat name he came up with? Why use Battler's name, or know about it? The only other person who knew were Beatrice and Ronove... and there was no other way they could just go and let Kinzo know about it... vvv True, but... to be fair, the only way we know that Maria had a diary at all is through Ange, who is a product of the universe created by Ep3, and I'm still deciding how literally I'm supposed to take the Fragments and how they relate to each other. While Maria's diary is real (or was at least mentioned in Ep1), it was only found and delivered to Ange after the fact, right? Who's to say that's not a fabrication as well? And that still doesn't answer the question of how Kinzo knows and calls Virgilia. So this might be another show for Battler's "entertainment." Shows, shows... it's all a drat show. resurgam40 fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Feb 16, 2017 |
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Feb 16, 2017 19:27
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"Has Rokkenjima already been completely sucked into a parallel world then? I hope he does not surrender."
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You forget that Virgilla is mentioned in Maria's diary, so that whole cooking up a name for herself for Battler was part of the show.
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Feb 16, 2017 19:30
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resurgam40 posted:Speaking of real and fake, I don't think it's been mentioned yet that Virgilia appeared with the other spirits- separate from Kumasawa. What does that mean?
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Feb 16, 2017 23:19
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SardonicTyrant posted:I think this one is pretty simple to explain: The Virgilia of the meta-world comes from the 3rd game and is separate from the 4th game Virgilia, in the same way meta-Battler is from the 1st game and is separate from the 4th game Battler. That's exactly it. The characters we see on Rokkenjima are pieces; the characters screaming at each other around the tea table live in the meta world. We're seeing piece-Virgilia here, just like we saw piece-Beatrice in the second game. e. To clarify, the piece-characters are called pieces because they are literally pieces on meta-Beatrice's and meta-Battler's gameboard. They're put away in their box at the end of each game and taken out again when meta-Beatrice starts the next game. Maybe I'm simplifying things, but that's the paradigm I use. Viola the Mad fucked around with this message at 08:06 on Feb 17, 2017 |
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Feb 17, 2017 02:53
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On the topic of piece and meta versions of characters, have any of the piece versions shown knowledge that only the meta versions should know?
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Feb 17, 2017 03:41
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savixeon posted:On the topic of piece and meta versions of characters, have any of the piece versions shown knowledge that only the meta versions should know? ProfessorProf posted:
It's not direct knowledge about metastuff but given how meta-Battler was also going with the whole "it's the Witch's turn, nothing I can do yet"...
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Feb 17, 2017 03:52
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"...I can hear youuu. I've casually eaten lunch, and there's even a typhoon and rain. Since we aren't doing anything, that means it isn't my turn yet."
"I wonder about that. If you have a passive attitude like that, and don't do anything unless something happens, your life will be pretty boring, right?"
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SardonicTyrant posted:That's actually not true. It is never stated in Red that the murders were commited in the rooms they were found in. All it states was that all six victims are dead, they died instantly, and they were all killed by homicide. That's not exactly what I was getting at. What I'm saying is that the wording of that red truth is pretty easy to exploit if you want to make red truths contradict each other. Just like "It is impossible to get through this door without using a key." Why wouldn't lockpicks work? Why wouldn't using one of the guns to blast it open work? If Battler wanted to ruin Beatrice's day by calling the truthfulness of red statements into question, that would be a good place to start. Of course, if there is a chance at Battler getting a positive ending, that probably won't help him towards it.
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Feb 17, 2017 06:12
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avoraciopoctules posted:That's not exactly what I was getting at. What I'm saying is that the wording of that red truth is pretty easy to exploit if you want to make red truths contradict each other. Just like "It is impossible to get through this door without using a key." Why wouldn't lockpicks work? Why wouldn't using one of the guns to blast it open work? Because everything said in red is the truth. Remember, this is is a game Battler and Beatrice are playing. So even if in real life you can pick a lock for the game they're playing a lockpick will not come up. The only way to lock a door is with a key.
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Feb 17, 2017 06:42
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Think about it like an extended logic puzzle. You have to play within the established rules of the universe. If it starts with, say, 'you have two camels', and you start attacking the problem by saying 'well what if my camels are actually donkeys', then it falls apart and nobody gets anywhere because we're all gummed up in ridiculous hypotheticals.
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Feb 17, 2017 07:13
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avoraciopoctules posted:That's not exactly what I was getting at. What I'm saying is that the wording of that red truth is pretty easy to exploit if you want to make red truths contradict each other. Just like "It is impossible to get through this door without using a key." Why wouldn't lockpicks work? Why wouldn't using one of the guns to blast it open work? Although, I feel like Beatrice and Eva-Beatrice have different 'styles' of using the Red truth. Eva-Beatrice elaborates more (see: Giant Web of Truth), while Beatrice says only the least amount necessary to screw with Battler. Edit: I mean, consider the timeless classic You are incompetent. Is that really an absolute statement, or something Beatrice thinks to be true? SardonicTyrant fucked around with this message at 07:52 on Feb 17, 2017 |
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Feb 17, 2017 07:41
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It's an objective statement. Battler is, so far, zero for three on solving the mysteries. He is not competent, at least not at this. Being cautious about making statements in red is most likely a stronger strategy, overall. Imagine the following (relatively facile) scenario: Battler: "He was killed with a knife." Beatrice: He was not killed with a knife. Battler: "Okay, he was killed with a bowling pin." Beatrice: He was not killed with a bowling pin. Battler: "He was killed with a gun." Beatrice: "No comment." So, you know, in that case, what was he killed with? Each time she says something in red, she eliminates incorrect possibilities, which in theory ought to lead him closer to the truth. So it's better to provide the minimum amount of information, and occasionally reserve certain facts until the right moment so that they will become a dick-punch that prevents him from thinking clearly.
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Feb 17, 2017 08:13
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Amidiri posted:Think about it like an extended logic puzzle. You have to play within the established rules of the universe. If it starts with, say, 'you have two camels', and you start attacking the problem by saying 'well what if my camels are actually donkeys', then it falls apart and nobody gets anywhere because we're all gummed up in ridiculous hypotheticals. What if that's your win condition? Battler "wins" when Beatrice gives up on convincing him that magic is for real. If he can destroy the credibility of her red truth, then that's a tool she can no longer use. What's left when we reject that? We probably get into debates much like the stuff we've recently seen between Ange and Maria, where Beatrice has to convince Battler that magic existing would be a good thing. Of course, her recent gambits will have all made that a more difficult prospect for her. Of course, depending on what's actually "real" in Umineko, making Beatrice give up in disgust using a wall of obnoxious nitpicking might not lead to an especially pleasant ending.
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Feb 17, 2017 08:22
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avoraciopoctules posted:What if that's your win condition? Battler "wins" when Beatrice gives up on convincing him that magic is for real. If he can destroy the credibility of her red truth, then that's a tool she can no longer use. This was already covered when the Red Truth was introduced. Rejecting the game's rules itself results in perpetual check. Battler doesn't lose, but he also gives up his ability to win the game. The game degrades into an eighth-grader's shouting match for all eternity, since there's no longer any basis to claim things. Doubting the basis of the Red Truth is basically equivalent to trying to win a chess match by refusing to accept that an opponent's knight can hop over pieces. It's petty, derides the spirit of the game, makes things dull for everyone, and isn't likely to help settle the match any.
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Feb 17, 2017 09:06
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 Silent. Black. Cold. Painful. Rosa regained consciousness bit by bit... And the first thing she thought... was that it would have been better if she hadn't. After all, with her body this cold and hurting, the pain grew the more her consciousness returned. It felt like she'd been sleeping on ice-cold marble in the darkness, lying face-down for a long time. ...Aaah, this is why I always tell myself. Even if its just for a nap, I've got to at least grab a sofa. I know that, if I naively try to close my eyes for just a second...and end up sleeping on the floor or in the study chair, it'll hurt my body later and make things difficult... Since I slept on such a cold and hard floor, even my bones are ice-cold. Since I slept on such a hard and cold floor, the half of my face pressed down against it hurts a lot. If I were to look in a mirror right now, I'm sure I'd see an embarrassing mark. I didn't think that just rubbing it would make that mark disappear, but I stroked the hurting side of my face anyway, trying to smooth it over...  I thought it was pitch black, but it looks like it isn't. After all, I can faintly see my own body. Without a doubt, there was some source of light, but even if I looked up at the ceiling... or else the sky, there was only an expanse of blackness, and I couldn't see a proper light. My body alone was slightly lit, whereas everything else was sunk in darkness... That's what this world was like. It was almost as though Rosa alone had been abandoned in a forgotten world. As her mind grew clearer, she started getting nervous about why she was all alone in a lonely place like this. When she was about to call out, asking if anyone was there, she heard the patter of footsteps coming towards her. They were light footsteps, so she thought it was probably a kid. She didn't sense anything disturbing, so she wasn't afraid. But they also weren't Maria's footsteps, so, wondering who in the world would be in a darkness like this, she stared in the direction the footsteps were coming from. ...As she did, a faint, approaching silhouette came into view.  ...Who is it? I don't know this kid. But, the expression on his face was like a lost child separated from his parents. As a parent with a daughter herself, Rosa felt as though her chest had been torn apart...  '...Uryu.' "...Ah! ..."The instant the kid muttered that infantile word, she felt pain in the half of her face that had started hurting from the cold floor, as though it had been pierced by long, thin, hard needles. Without thinking, she pressed her hand against that side of her face. '...Are you all right...? Does it still hurt...?' "...Thanks, I'm fine, little guy. Where are we...? It's really... cold." '...Come this way... You mustn't stay here...'That child took my other hand and pulled with a grim expression on his face. Rosa didn't have a clue what was going on. However, a single honest expression on a child... can often tell the truth better than a hundred words from an adult. She didn't know the situation, but even so, she dashed along with him, still being pulled...  ...Even though she was running, she couldn't even feel any wind. It was as though she was still inside a nightmare, that kind of unreal sensation... So even though I ran, I couldn't maintain my sense of balance, and my legs got tangled and I fell. Even in a world that didn't feel real, the pain of smashing my face against the cold, hard floor was reality itself. 'Uryu, are you okay...?' "Ah, nn... I'm sorry, my head hurts."...When the kid said that... infantile word 'uryu', pain like being stuck with needles ran though my head again. Even though it had only happened twice, I was somehow able to understand that the child's word was the cause of my pain. So I said so frankly. "I'm sorry. Could you stop saying 'uryu'...?" 'Uryu...' "Nng, wait a second, didn't I tell you to stop...?" 'U, au, uu-! Sorry...'I had the feeling that this child's apology caused a sharp pain in my forehead this time. What is... this child...? I know there's no malice in him, but when I'm around this child, my head hurts... '...Are you okay...? Let's go, quickly... You mustn't stay here...' "Why shouldn't I be here...? Hey, where is this...? Who are you? Where is your Mama...?" "...Huh...?"That child stared at me with round eyes. This kid's Mama... is me...? Who? Who is... this kid? I don't remember at all. 'Did you... forget about me...? You made me, right...?' "...Wait a second, stop kidding around. Maria is my only child... That's right, where is Maria? Where is she?! Maria...?!"I suddenly grew nervous about Maria not being there. Why am I all alone in a place like this? Where is Maria?! I'm only able to be me because Maria's there for me...! '...Maria is here, but she's not Maria now. It's better if you don't meet with her now. That's better for your sake, and Maria's as well. For Maria's sake as well, escape.' "Huh...? What are you saying? Where is Maria? Maria?! Answer me!!" 'Maria's gonna find you...! Come this way, quickly, Mama...!'That child pulled on my hand again. He was probably pulling me in the opposite direction from Maria. So I stopped walking. "Let go...! Just who are you...?! What gives you the right to call me Mama...?!" '...Mama is the one who made me... Did you forget...? For Maria's birthday present, you made me with your own hands, did you forget...?' "...You... couldn't be... Maria's... Sakutarou...?!" 'Yes... The lion stuffed animal Mama made...!' When I knocked his hand away without thinking... and looked at my palm... a hole the size of a thumb had opened there, and deep-red blood gushed out. It was a hole so big that I could see through to the other side... 'U-Uryu...! Are you okay?! Are you okay?! What's wrong...?!'Sakutarou noticed my wound and panicked. As far as I could tell by looking at him, he couldn't understand why my hand had sustained a serious injury. But in my eyes, it felt like I'd been injured because he'd grabbed my hand. Regardless of whether there was malice in him, I understood that this child was something that would do harm to me, and he instantly seemed eerie... "Go away...!! You have nothing to do with me...! Sakutarou was just a disgusting, crappy stuffed animal, right...?!! I don't know you, I'm not your Mama...!! Go away...! Disappear!!" '...U...yu...' It gaped open, and pitch-black insides peeked out. No blood poured from it. Only an empty blackness peeked out. Then, from the insides of the gash, cotton snow poured out, and as bits of cotton scattered, he slumped over. Then, all that remained was a crumpled yellow cloth... and bits of cotton that looked like sticky, crushed cotton candy. A lion... stuffed animal. Without a doubt. These were the remains of the Sakutarou stuffed animal I tore apart on that day, while overcome by my emotions. The instant I realized that, a long, sharp shriek that could rupture an eardrum tore the world apart...  BGM: Requiem Like a flood from a broken dam, or like a broken TV... Maria cried out in a high-pitched voice. Her voice, which made the ears throb, brought up two emotions in me... One was regret, 'Yeah, I was overcome by my emotions and went overboard'. It was a mother's desire to kneel down right away, hold Maria's head, cry with her and apologize. ...In actual fact, I did that right away. I held Maria's head and apologized, crying. But Maria didn't stop crying. On the contrary, she rejected me, the one who had torn her closest friend apart, and pushed me away forcefully with both hands. I had been on my knees in an unnatural position, so I fell backwards easily. Maria scraped together the yellow scraps of cloth and cotton bits, buried her face in them, and cried even more... Watching that, another emotion welled up. It welled up rapidly. And then, it burst. After all, she refused to make up with me even though I'd apologized, and there was nothing else I could do now anyway, and it was all Maria's fault in the first place...!! Since she's too busy playing with stuffed animals all the time like this, she can't make any friends, and that's why people treat her like a freak...!! This is a perfect opportunity to give her some instructive guidance! After all, it's not like I was pampered all the time...!! Everything eventually breaks, is stolen, is destroyed by someone! Even I had lots of toys and treasures stolen, broken, mocked, and thrown away by my brothers and sister and Father and Mother...!! But when I cried about that, while I might have shed a few tears, not once did I sob like this and trouble my parents, throw a tantrum, get mad, hit the floor and kick and make a racket...!! Even though I always wanted to, I thought I'd get in more trouble if I did, so I always, always held it back.  At that moment, I felt something strange. The same feeling as when you use a tool recklessly, and it finally breaks, so that only the base is left. But I wasn't using a tool. I'd just been repeatedly hitting Maria's head with both hands. So, I looked at my hands.  BGM: Miragecoordinator As though only that part of my arms had become ceramic. No, as though all of me from the wrists onwards had suddenly become ceramic, and had broken and fallen. They must have gotten filled with cracks because I hit Maria too much... before falling off. After all, look, aren't both of my wrists lying smashed by my feet...? "Ee...? Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeekkk...!!!"There was no pain. But the shocking sight of my hands breaking off from the wrists onwards made me scream... "Wh-What is this?! What is this?! My hands, my hands, my hands...!! Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeekkkk!!!" Ignoring my confusion, Maria spoke with an icy voice, slowly moving her hands away from her head, where they had been defending against my barrage...  "...What's happening?! My hands, my hands...!! What did you do, Maria, what is this, what on earth is this...?!"Behind Maria's back, a black silhouette had appeared. It was the silhouette of an adult. Who?!   "Mama hit my head more than she patted it. She never opens picture books. She doesn't even make me food. I go to buy it myself." "...But I mustn't go to the same store more than once, mustn't have my face remembered, mustn't talk to the policeman... Why? Why is that? Is it my fault?" "Am I not allowed to have Mama pat my head, have picture books read to me, or eat dinner with Mama...? Why not? Why not?!" "I didn't do anything wrong!! It isn't my fault, it's Mama's!! Mama's fault!!" "Mama wouldn't play with me, but Sakutaro did! He even read books, watched TV and ate meals with me!! He was a much, much better friend than Mama was!!!" "...I-I'm not proud of it...! B-But what am I supposed to do?! I'm busy with work, work I tell you!! You know that, right?! It was unavoidable!! There's nothing I can do!!" "True enough. It was unavoidable." "Unavoidable that you'd injure your daughter, tearing her heart apart and making her tears run with blood...! In that case, there's no avoiding the same thing happening again, right here, right now...!!" "Come, MARIA...! Enough of the excuses from a woman who calls herself a mother. Can you forgive her, or not...?! Is she innocent... or guilty?!?!"
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Feb 17, 2017 14:34
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You reap what you sow. I really want to feel bad for Maria and Rosa here, they're just trapped in the cycle of abuse. But I also feel kinda smug seeing Rosa get it thrown in her face.
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Feb 17, 2017 15:02
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ProfessorProf posted:...In actual fact, I did that right away. I held Maria's head and apologized, crying. But Maria didn't stop crying. On the contrary, she rejected me, the one who had torn her closest friend apart, and pushed me away forcefully with both hands. I had been on my knees in an unnatural position, so I fell backwards easily. Maria scraped together the yellow scraps of cloth and cotton bits, buried her face in them, and cried even more... They gently caress you up, your mum and dad. They may not mean to, but they do. They fill you with the faults they had And add some extra, just for you. But they were hosed up in their turn By fools in old-style hats and coats, Who half the time were soppy-stern And half at one another’s throats. Man hands on misery to man. It deepens like a coastal shelf. Get out as early as you can, And don’t have any kids yourself. -Philip Larkin, "This Be The Verse" Any schadenfreude felt at seeing Rosa's abuse repaid is swallowed by the knowledge that she was led to her behavior by all of her other family; Rosa has no respect for Maria's toys and dreams because no respect was shown for her own by Krauss or Eva or Rudolph or Kinzo. Such is the way of violence; first we are tormented by the Bad Witch, and then she devours us whole. resurgam40 fucked around with this message at 15:15 on Feb 17, 2017 |
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Feb 17, 2017 15:07
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Hey, meta-Rosa from the second game's back!  idonotlikepeas posted:It's an objective statement. Battler is, so far, zero for three on solving the mysteries. He is not competent, at least not at this. If Battler is incompetent in Beatrice's eyes, then the statement has meaning, and is certainly true. Edit: I'm not saying we should not trust the Red statements. I believe they are true for the purposes of solving the mystery. SardonicTyrant fucked around with this message at 17:00 on Feb 17, 2017 |
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Feb 17, 2017 16:53
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resurgam40 posted:-Philip Larkin, "This Be The Verse" Ha, beat me to it. (I think of this poem often since I've had kids.) SardonicTyrant posted:Hey, meta-Rosa from the second game's back! I think it's fair to say that there is always some context, yeah. It's still a bit stronger than "in Beatrice's opinion, he is incompetent", though; exactly how strong is probably left up to our imaginations, since it seems like it was a bit of a joke anyway. As for Maria and Rosa, it's a pretty transparent revenge fantasy, but I wonder whose? It doesn't have to be hers; plenty of people will line up to abuse an abuser, especially if it's imaginary.
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Feb 17, 2017 17:30
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resurgam40 posted:Any schadenfreude felt at seeing Rosa's abuse repaid is swallowed by the knowledge that she was led to her behavior by all of her other family; Rosa has no respect for Maria's toys and dreams because no respect was shown for her own by Krauss or Eva or Rudolph or Kinzo. Such is the way of violence; first we are tormented by the Bad Witch, and then she devours us whole. Christ. It's like watching a train wreck...you know why it's happening, and can feel what's going to happen next, but you can't look away or do or think of anything that could avert it. Because it's the inevitable progression of Rosa's abuse against Maria. It's the certain result of Rosa's abuse at the hands of her horrible siblings and monster of a father. A cycle of pain and suffering that can't be broken. It's not what either Rosa or Maria deserves, but life doesn't care about what they deserve, it only cares about pain begetting more pain.  idonotlikepeas posted:As for Maria and Rosa, it's a pretty transparent revenge fantasy, but I wonder whose? It doesn't have to be hers; plenty of people will line up to abuse an abuser, especially if it's imaginary. I'm certain Shannon found out about Rosa's abuse of Maria from her during the tea parties and bore that pain and anger as well. She cared about Maria up until Beatrice took her over, and then Beatrice took that fury to its logical conclusion.  Edit: Beatrice is literally standing behind Maria and encouraging her hatred. As far as she's concerned, it's only more fuel for her own hatred of the Ushiromiyas. Lycaeon fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Feb 17, 2017 |
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Feb 17, 2017 19:00
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idonotlikepeas posted:Being cautious about making statements in red is most likely a stronger strategy, overall. Imagine the following (relatively facile) scenario:  And that's exactly what happened with the six-room chain. Battler demands that Beatrice say "The six deaths were all homicides." She refuses, but desperately instead offers "None of the six committed suicide." Battler says a-hah, so one of them died accidentally. Annoyed, Beatrice is about to say "none of the six died an accidental death," but Ronove stops her, because she'd just be helping Battler find the whole truth. Being incompetent, he doesn't pick up on this or revisit it (though he does remark it's strange she's so panicky), but since one of the six is Kinzo, it obviously fits the theory that he died of natural causes before October 4th, and someone impersonating hiding in his study is the "19th" (actually 18th) person. Apparently they're a bit heavy, since the loudness of their footsteps keeps being remarked on. (At first I thought there weren't many ways of naturally dying "instantly", but looking back Beatrice says "Well, it might still have taken them several seconds or minutes to die in the complete sense of the word." So, a heart attack. Easy.) The scene introducing Gaap just underlines it: unlike the Beatrice in episode 2, "Kinzo's" identity can't stand up to the observation of a bunch of people. Instead they had to die. ...Huh, now I do wonder if they're the same person.
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Feb 17, 2017 20:56
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Doc Hawkins posted:The scene introducing Gaap just underlines it: unlike the Beatrice in episode 2, "Kinzo's" identity can't stand up to the observation of a bunch of people. Instead they had to die. I've mostly focused my efforts on the 3rd game. I'm gonna post my thoughts on the 1st and 2nd games sometime next week.
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Feb 17, 2017 23:17
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 In that instant, invisible, massive arms stuck their fingernails out and tightly grasped Rosa's entire body. As the bones all over her body made a sound like twigs being stepped on, they cracked readily and broke apart. ...Rosa had understood vaguely. The massive arms were probably... her own arms, from the time she'd torn Sakutarou apart. From a stuffed animal's perspective, her arms certainly would have been this massive. So she could imagine what would happen next. The sharp nails stuck deep into the base of her neck, and she heard the skin tearing with her own ears. Then, as the two witches watched over her, Rosa's flesh was split in two, top and bottom. When Sakutarou had been torn apart, bits of cotton had flown about like snowflakes. But in Rosa's case, something like black, thick tar came out, filthily flying all over the place. There wasn't even a trace of the red of blood. It was something black, filthy and thick. It was probably what a bloodless, tearless human kept inside their body.  "I can't forgive her!! Still can't forgive her, she's guilty...!!!"When Beatrice brandished her pipe cane, gold butterflies seeped up and restored Rosa's broken flesh in an instant... "...Ack, gwah! *cough*cough*...!" "Feel the depths of your sin, which cannot be repaid by a single human life. And remember your own great sin...!" "Come, try and remember...!! Remember the scale of your sin...!!" "I'm sorry. I'm busy with work today, so I'm staying over."...Staying over for work again...? Looks like work is tough for you again today, Mama... "Yeah, sorry. I really am busy. I'll be holed up in the company the whole time. I can't even get a breath of outside air. Mama just can't finish her job quickly this time. Unless I give them a better design, I won't be given another job, that's how tough this work is. So it'll just have to take some time."...Yeah. I understand. I'll be a good girl and watch over the house, so do your best at work, finish it quickly, and come back, okay...? "Thank you for understanding about Mama's work... I promise I'll buy a delicious cake tomorrow and take it home."I don't need cake. Instead of taking time to go to the cake store, I'd be happier if you came home that much sooner. "Don't worry. I'll come back quickly, I promise. So let's have some delicious cake together. Let's drink delicious tea together. Let's read a new picture book together. Let's play with that Wolves and Sheep Puzzle I bought the other day. Both of us together. I promise."...Yeah, promise. I'll be waiting. Do your best at work, Mama...  "...I-I... kept that promise, didn't I? The next evening, didn't I do as I promised, buying a cake and returning earlier than usual?" "That's not it. I knew... That evening, a pay-on-delivery package came for Mama, but there wasn't enough money in the wallet, so I called Mama's company to ask what to do. I was told only to call at special times, but I thought it'd be bad if the package was something important for Mama's work... So I called." "..." "...Then, I was told that Mama had the day off. I was told that it had been decided long ago that Mama would have that day off, and that she'd gone far away to play. I knew. The whole, whole time, I knew Mama was lying...!"But you know what? Sakutarou scolded me, saying that it wasn't true. Every day, Mama was very busy with work. There was no way she'd abandon Maria and play. He said that the person who told us Mama had the day off must've made some kind of mistake...! That's what Sakutaro said. So I believed it. I believed it! I love Mama, love her...! Of course, Mama says that she loves me, loves me!!  Rosa let out a deep sigh. Maybe she felt the weight of her words. Then, she set the receiver on the bedside phone down. The dark room made the starry sky on the ground below the window stand out even more beautifully. On the table in front of the terrace was a very cold wine cooler, and the one she shared a glass with was gazing at the scene below...   "I told her once, but she was so noisy that I decided not to tell her anymore. It's less work that way." "...If you were worried about your daughter, you didn't have to force yourself to put this in your schedule, right?" "But that way, we'd never get our schedules to match... Didn't I say not to worry about that?"The slender, middle-aged man clad in a white robe gave a small sigh. Rosa reacted instantly to that slight action...  "Come on! Let's not talk about my daughter. It'd be a waste of this precious wine." "...I find you fascinating as both a woman and a human being. But for that very reason, I feel bad about taking so much of your time that it strains your relationship with your daughter." "Don't I always tell you not to worry about my relationship with my daughter...?! I try not to talk about her when I'm alone with you, okay? I wouldn't even have phoned from here if it weren't for the noisy drunk laughing stupidly in the lobby downstairs...!" "Rosa-san, can't you reconsider taking sudden vacations like this in the future, for your daughter's sake...? Isn't it enough if we only meet when our schedules match?" "Our schedules will never match up that way, right...?! And I...always want to be with you...!" "That's a child's way of loving. Loving between adults should be a little more stoic. Not being able to be with you for long periods of time makes me lonely too. However, I think we can enjoy more than enough adult loving during that limited time." "So you're telling me to go be with my daughter more. Be a mother, not a woman?" "...That's what you want too, right? You must also want to spend lots of time with your daughter. I won't run away. I'm trying to say that I think it's sad for you to sacrifice your daughter so you can prioritize your time with me." "...Did you get back on good terms with your wife? Looks like you've had about enough of being separated from her." "I don't want to talk about my wife. Just like you don't want to talk about your daughter." "...I'm sure you think single women with children are a pain." "I've never said anything of the sort before." "...Whenever someone finds out I have a child, they desert me. Even if I tell them not to worry about paying that child's living expenses, they all desert me... I... thought you understood about my daughter, but I guess you don't like single women with children after all..." "That's not what I'm saying. I haven't started to dislike you, Rosa-san. I'm just trying to tell you to take better care of our daughter, something I know you wish for yourself, and I don't want you to hurt yourself by lying to her. That's all I'm saying." "That's not what I'm saying...!" "No, I know, I understand. After being abandoned so many times because of that child, I know, I can tell by your mood, yes, you're already like those other men!! You don't want a woman with a child, you don't want a divorcee, because that's a pain!!" "You don't want to become the parent of a child made with another man, right? Yes, that's right, I totally get it!! I once went out with a man with children, so I really get how you feel...!! That's why... I believed I'd be able to be together with you, a person who understood about my daughter!!" "...!" "...If only you didn't exist, I would've been able to grasp my happiness as a woman long ago... Because you exist, you were always in the way of my happiness..." "...Ma... ma..." "...Even I didn't want you to be born... No, that's not it. I thought I might be able to build a happy family together with you... But that man disappeared right before your birth. He said he'd build a warm family with me, tricked me, and disappeared from my sight for all eternity...!! Only you were left. No love or memories or anything remained!! Where did that man go? He probably just turned my days with him into a warm memory... and met with a new love. And this time, he might have been able to create a happy family...!! And as for me?! I have you!! I can't even look for a new love!!" "No, I wasn't even allowed that, I wasn't even allowed a night to drink myself drunk all alone!! Who are you?! Who?! You wasted my life... and won't even let me have a new life... Just who are you to my life?! Die, disappear, I've hated you since the time you were born!! I've hated you since the time you were in my womb!!! I've been doing my best to act like a good mother so that I'd be accepted by the outside world. Yes, I've done my best!! As I watched other women of my generation praise being single, sometimes playing with passion or even being joined with someone in love, I was stuck being both a mother and a woman...!! Who ever showed appreciation for my efforts?! No one admired me, no one praised me!!" "I was so desperate, I probably looked like a easy woman to you... yes, I was desperate!! You probably couldn't imagine how desperate a woman like me, who's still at the age where she wants to know love, was...when I realized that my time was being filled with work and caring for my child so that I'd probably grow old and end my life still like this!! Of course I hate your real father too! But we both share the blame for bringing about that catastrophe. I myself might have been persistent enough to make him run away! But the catastrophes after that were all your fault! When did I ever scold you for that?! Never, riiiiiiiight?! The day after one man left me, when I wanted to drink myself dead drunk, was Parent's Day at your school!! When I tried to hide my tear-stained eyes with heavy makeup, the way I felt when you said something off the mark and the whole class laughed at you... is something that not only you, but probably everyone in the world couldn't understand!!" Maria's face was still stiff... If the words really had been blades, Maria's whole body would probably be stained red with fresh blood by now. Even after gaining the power of a witch and resolving herself to take revenge for Sakutaro, she couldn't stand these curses coming out of her mother's mouth...  "Ugly. Aaaaaaaahh, how ugly is a woman drowning in lust...!!" "Now you see this woman's true nature!! Even I, as a witch who has explored the depths of evil, find this most difficult to watch!!" "Aaah, MARIA, now is the time to part from her!! Smash the ugly lump of meat that calls herself your mother...!! It would be pointless for your pure soul to be bound by the chains between mother and daughter any longer! With your own hand! Release your own soul now!! You have now gained the tooth and claw to protect yourself!!" "Ahhahahahahahahahaha!! Aren't you the one who's been hurting me?! I'm the one who wants revenge...!! I should have done that before you were born!! If only you hadn't been born!! Disappeeeeeeeeeeeaaaar, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh!! Gagyah!"As Rosa howled, in a way that can only be described by the word 'splat', her upper body was crushed, and in an instant, became something similar to a wrung, bloodstained towel.  "Be crushed. I can't forgive you, can't forgive you...!!" "Kuhhahhahha...!! What filth. That form suits you...!"...Even though Rosa's waist and below was standing normally, just the upper half of her body had been pinched, and that extreme contrast was bizarre. Then, she fell over, but the instant she fell, her body was restored. "*cough*cough*! *cough*!! ...YOU die. Kuhhihihhihhihhi...!" "Hit her, spit it out!! Push out all of the wedges driven into your chest... and fling them back at her!!!" "Uugaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhoooooooooooooohhhh!!!"Maria's howl was adorned with the ugly sound of flesh and bone being crushed at the same time... As Rosa, who had foully insulted Maria, lay spread-eagled, a neat, perfect circle was cut out of her chest and crushed, as though her chest had been trampled by an invisible elephant. Her heart and her lungs and her ribs were trampled so mercilessly that they were completely indistinguishable. It might have symbolized the pain in Maria's heart up until today.  "I can't forgive her!! Not yet, not yet!! Mama is guilty, guilty guilty guilty, can't forgive her!!!" "Indeed, how could this level of punishment compare to the bitter days you suffered through?!! Know it, Rosa! Come, try to remember, what form did you have?! Revive in order to be killed!! Be killed over and over, so that your sins can be purified!!!"When Beato waved her cane, the body was restored again, and Rosa sat up, coughing violently in apparent pain... And once again, she spat out curses rejecting Maria. "...You aren't Mama. You're a witch, a witch tormenting me and Mama!! I won't forgive you just because you look like Mama! I won't forgive you!!" "...You're the witch, aren't you...? Always reading creepy books and pretending to play with witches...!! You're the one who should disappeeeeeeeeeeeear!! Because of you, even I'm treated like a freak! Because of you, because of yooooooooooooouuuuuuu!!! If only you hadn't been born!! Don't be born...!! I've hated you since before you were boooooooooooorn!!!" ...Maria screamed. Was she unable to bear her anger and sadness? Or else, had she been taken over by an indescribable emotion...? It was surely... a cry of hopelessness. And yet, it was a reality that had to be accepted. Maria knew. She knew that she was thought of as a burden. But even though she herself had known that, she didn't believe it. She'd believed that her mother loved her... and had done her best to positively interpret several events that could have made her doubt this, trusting and clinging to her mother's love. But, she had no one except Mama. Even so, she really did like Mama... and wanted to return to the days when she'd believed that Mama loved her... So she howled...  I'll deny the mother who says these things, the black witch who makes her say them, and... the part of myself that can't forgive my mother...!!! But I can't deny it! This is reality, fact, the truth, the answer. Without any mistake, this is absolute... reality!! Maria turned Rosa into a lump of meat over and over. Over and over, in the dark world that reflected her heart, rang the ugly sound of flesh and bone being torn apart, which would make anyone want to cover their ears... Each time, Beatrice revived Rosa. She dragged her back into the world of endless torture, which could not be escaped from even by death. This was the true, deepest hell that the Endless Witch Beatrice could create. However, this world was not made endless by Beatrice's will. Because every time Rosa turned into a lump of meat, she asked the same question to Maria.  "How could I forgive her, how could I forgive her?!! I won't forgive, won't forgive her!! I'll teach you all of my pain...!! Teach you much, much more...!! It's still not enough, not close to enough...!! Since I was born, since before I was born...!! I can't get rid of the anger and sadness of being neglected so long...!!" "...Fuhi, hahaha... I hate you, haaate you... Fuhihiha, haha..." "Ugaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhh!!!"Revive over and over again. Return to a meat lump over and over again. In various ways, she crushed, smashed, beat, and tore to bits. Flying blood spatter and flesh turned the once pitch-black world into a world with mixed red and black. Maria's anger still hadn't calmed down. It was as though she was spitting out all of the suppressed rage from the time of her birth until today. If that all became poison to her heart... Then would the repeated murder of her mother purify her soul...? Would even this wasteful murder save her soul, at least a little bit...? This endless torture... might have become a slight diversion from her sad, unrewarded life. After all, it seemed that she'd finally been able to regain her smile.   "What's wrong? Why'd you stop laughing?! Try and laaaaaaauuugh!!" "...Fuhi, fuhihihi... Gyack...!!!"Half of her skull collapsed. Eyeballs flew out and black cranial fluid gushed. Fragments of teeth scattered. "Come on, revive...!! Try and laugh...!! Come on, come oooooon!!!" "...Ihi, ihi. ...Gyaggh!!"Her whole chest along with her ribs turned inside out, exposing her filthy innards. All of them writhed, like some kind of impure creature. "Come on, come on, come on!! Revive!! Can you still laugh? Can you still laugh?! Kihhihihihihi?!" "..."Rosa couldn't laugh anymore. But her face was laughing. It was filled with a twisted laugh... and covered with a malice that rejected her unwanted daughter. I erased that laughing voice. Next, I'll erase that laughing face. I'll erase it, I'll crush it, I'll tear it to bits...!!    "That's right, you are now playing with your mother, having fun with her...!! Tell me how you feel right now! I don't believe it's anger or sadness or pain...!" "Yeah, that's right, I get it, Beatrice...!! I'm having a lot of fun now... I'm playing with Mama, so it's tons of fun!!" "And even though I'm killing Mama over and over again, she can be revived with just a single bit of magic!! I took care of my toys because I couldn't fix them if they broke...!! But if the toy could be fixed, I'd want to break it over and over again!! Kihhihihihihihihihihihihi!! Hihihihihihi, hihi..." "...But... Sakutaro won't be fixed. He can't be fixed... Because Mama, who made him, Mama, who gave birth to him, won't acknowledge him." "..." "I wasn't acknowledged by Mama either, was I...? So the broken Maria won't be fixed either..." "...Kihihihi. Kihhihihihihihihihihihihi!! Kyahhahahahahyahhyahhyahhyah!! Aaaaaaaaaaahhh, it's fun, it's fun, Mama...!! Since it's gotten so fun, I'm somehow starting to feel that I could forgive you...! Hey, Beato, this is a veeery strange feeling...! Why? Why am I starting to feel like I can forgive Mama?!" "That enlightened state is only reached by witches who have gained the power to control life and death at will. You can kill at any time. You can revive her if needed. If that's a pain, then it's all right to kill her again...! Once you've learned that you can do this at any time by simply snapping your fingers, all nonsense spoken in the world of humans becomes a chirping of insects that isn't worth listening to...!" "You didn't begin to think about forgiving your mother because your eyes were opened to your mother's love. It was because now, you stand at the entrance to the world of true witches...!! Welcome, Maria, to the profound and sweet world of witches!!" "I've done it...!! Maria is no longer Maria...!! I may still be an apprentice, but I've surpassed the Human world...! "Mama, I'll forgive you. I'm sure I can forgive you! I think I'll be able to forgive you after doing just a bit more!!" "After all, I'm a witch!! Ki, hihhihihhihhihhihhihhihhi!" Maria would probably forgive her mother eventually. After brutally murdering her countless times. Graciously.   "Looks like it. No matter how old you get, thunder still makes you jump."Battler was looking at the dark night through a crack in the curtains. Every once in a while, a pale, white lightning bolt would shine, and he seemed to be enjoying it.   "...Oh? Look, you were so noisy, you woke Maria up. Sorry, Maria. Sorry Battler's so freaking loud...!" "What the hell, so it's my fault? Sorry, Maria. It's okay to go back to sleep. Good night."Maria was a bit hazy, with drowsy eyes. She was probably half-asleep and couldn't think straight.  "...Uu-. That's okay. I won't sleep." "Nah, go ahead and sleep. You're still half-asleep, aren't you? Ihihi." "...I'm not half-asleep! Uu-!!" "Come on, you're totally half-asleep, aren't you? Sleep, sleeeep." "I'm not half-asleep! Not half-asleep!! Uu-uu-!! Uu-uu-uu-uu-!!" "Quit it, stupid Battler...! Aah, sheesh, what are you thinking, getting a kid who's just woken up into a bad mood...?!" "I'm not half-asleep! Not half-asleep! Uu-uu-uu-uu-uu-uu-uu-uu-uu-!!!" "I understand, Maria-chan... You aren't half-asleep. So calm down..." "Not half-asleep, not half-asleep!! Uu-!! Uu-uu-uu-uu-uu-uu-!!" Battler had only been trying to tease her a bit, so he was confused by this extreme overreaction. George held her head, trying to calm her down, but Maria's tantrum wasn't going to be quelled easily. Battler and Jessica were trying to push the blame on each other, saying 'It's your fault' 'It's your fault too'.  "Hey, be quiet, you two...! Jessica-chan, there was still some hot water in the pot, right? Could you make some tea for her? Did you calm down, Maria-chan?" "...Uuuu---."It looked like her tantrum was dying down bit by bit, but she still glared at Battler, who had made fun of her, with sharp eyes. "Battler-kun was just kidding around. He doesn't really think you're half-asleep. So calm down. Okay? ...?" "..."George noticed. Maria was staring at Battler with incredible eyes. And, despite having just displayed all that emotion, she laughed in a small voice.  Instead of a laugh, it seemed more like she was muttering while thinking about, or else counting, each 'hi'. As though each time she said 'hi', something brutal would happen over and over. George felt something creepy for just an instant, but he couldn't spot the madness that peeked out of the depths of the girl's eyes for just a moment. After a short period of stunned silence on George's part, Maria stopped her bizarre, quiet laugh and pushed George's arm aside, as though telling him to let go.  "...Uu-. I'll forgive him." "R-Really? You're such a good girl, Maria. Battler-kun, Maria-chan forgave you. Make up." "Yeah, sorry for teasing you. Forgive me..." "Hey, Maria... Let's make some cafe au lait as a sign that you've made up. I'll put in lots of sugar, so it'll be sweet." "I don't need it. But I'll forgive you." "Because I'm a witch. Kihihihi."One more time, Maria laughed in a creepy, quiet voice. But it was only for a very short time, so Battler and Jessica didn't think much of it. They decided to think that... it had probably only looked that way when the lightning lit her cheek with a pale, white light for an instant. At that time, they could hear the sound of loud footsteps coming from the hall. It was already about 10:30, late at night. Late at night is usually a time when you aren't supposed to be disturbed. Hearing footsteps like that at this time was far from calming...  That clearly told them that this was an abnormal situation. "Children...!! Are you there? Are you there?! It's Gohda!" "It's Kumasawa, is everyone okay?! Aaaaaaah, what has happened, what has happened...?!"When George opened the door, the two of them tumbled in, sopping wet. It looked like they had dashed here from the mansion without an umbrella.  "Wh-What's wrong, you two...? Did something happen...?!" 
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Feb 18, 2017 14:42
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 Guess we're starting the morning on the right foot, eh?
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Feb 18, 2017 15:11
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Ah THERE was the Rosa hotel scene, I forgot where it was!
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Feb 18, 2017 15:47
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That Rosa stuff appeared to be Maria's Dream. So once again kind of dubious how true this is. It's also kind of out of her character. Even at her worst moments she has said she loves Maria. Particularity when she is suffering horribly. I doubt she was lying to herself during the end of Episode 2.
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Feb 18, 2017 17:13
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ProfessorProf posted:
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Feb 18, 2017 17:15
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Gohda is the best character, and the one I trust to give hints about what's going on since I don't think he's allowed in to the super secret servant club like the others.
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Feb 18, 2017 19:12
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MonsterEnvy posted:That Rosa stuff appeared to be Maria's Dream. So once again kind of dubious how true this is. Nah it's 100% true in terms of characterization and the history. Rosa can both love Maria and deeply resent her. Because people are complex.
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Feb 18, 2017 20:03
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Classy Hydra posted:This was already covered when the Red Truth was introduced. Rejecting the game's rules itself results in perpetual check. Kinzo's rear end in a top hat Island Adventure involves relatively few people, and many of them are huge jerks. Maybe it'd be better for the wider world if Battler kept Beatrice busy? And I think it's been mentioned before that the increasing cast is due to Battler's antimagic field weakening every time he loses a game. Somebody sacrificing themselves to keep the evil sealed in a can has been a literary trope for a while. If you want to look at the mystery genre specifically, Poirot's last case is an instance where a great literary detective was willing to cross his own principles to make sure a bad guy got taken out. The collateral damage is a shame, but think of all the people that Beatrice can't get to while Battler traps her in timeless limbo. This gets a bit less compelling if you don't go with the demonic murderghost theory, and Lambdadelta dropped a few hints that Beatrice might not be all that. But it is something I'd like to see Umineko touch on in a bit more detail at some point. Perhaps some idea what the plan is once she's through with all the current murder pageantry? If you go with Beatrice as reactionary hallucination theory, like this is Blindsight by Peter Watts, then maybe you could make the case that this part of some incredibly bullshit memetic attack meant to create the Witch Hunt people Ange meets in her timeline. But I really hope this doesn't go there. The big reveal at the end of Dangan Ronpa was pretty disappointing to me.
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Feb 18, 2017 22:04
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Beatrice can only live in places where people fail to deny she exists. The only way she could escape the island to kill again is if a copycat killer did a similar mass-murder at another island (or some other kind of "closed room"), which no-one could fully explain without saying Beatrice did it. Without that, she'd be confined to the Land of Witches, which as this episode and even this update both clearly show, is imagination. Specifically, Maria is imagining rapidly killing Battler a bunch of times, which gets out her frustration and allows her forgive him.
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Feb 18, 2017 22:19
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avoraciopoctules posted:If you go with Beatrice as reactionary hallucination theory, like this is Blindsight by Peter Watts, then maybe you could make the case that this part of some incredibly bullshit memetic attack meant to create the Witch Hunt people Ange meets in her timeline. But I really hope this doesn't go there. The big reveal at the end of Dangan Ronpa was pretty disappointing to me. I get the feeling that Umineko is going to go down like Killer 7 by the end. Your post just made put some pieces together in my head and I can't unsee the similarities Umineko an Killer 7's plot and themes. 
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Feb 18, 2017 23:40
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Literally Maria right now https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t4pmlHRokg
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Feb 19, 2017 02:54
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Dr Pepper posted:Rosa can both love Maria and deeply resent her. Because people are complex. This is my read on it, too. The version of Rosa that only hates Maria is just as fake as the version that only loves her. Abusive parents feel both things at the same time.
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Feb 19, 2017 05:17
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Tender Child Loins posted:Literally Maria right now Solid ref, and it helped me realize that it's not just Maria who uses magic this way: the essential nature of "The Witch Beatrice" is the Letter-Writer's fantasy of power and revenge on the lovely Uroshimiya family. The discussion on bottle-manuscripts establishes that the Letter-Writer must have written the first two episodes way before October 4th. Imagining over and over how these people would die, for the sake of calming (actually nursing) their pain and anger. They knew Real Dead Human Beatrice, and felt that her death gave them license to use her as a specter of revenge, therefore writing that it "released" the Witch from a specific body, into an animating spirit and motivation for creating an endless cycle of murder-fantasy, which eventually culminated in the creation of a locked room and legend that would "bring the witch into the human world". They also met Maria. Now, from the descriptions of Kuwadorian's location, I don't really get how she'd be able to get there by herself, much less without anyone noticing, so I guess the Letter-Writer must have been someone who wouldn't be out of place in the Manor. I can only think they're one of the older servants, specifically Kumasawa...but maybe the Virgilia character makes that too obvious. I guess they could be a servant we haven't seen yet, in which case they could also be the 18th/19th person. Oh, they also could have died or left, or even just not have been interested in actually murdering people, in which case they only inspired the culprits. But that all seems to be more complicated than necessary.
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Feb 19, 2017 05:17
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 October 4th, 1986, 10:37 PM  There were no windows, and with the weak light bulb, one could just barely make out the state of things around them. It appeared to be an old forgotten underground storage room, with some kind of dusty furniture haphazardly thrown into it... However, even with just a little light, one could at least make out that it probably wasn't a storage room. After all, that room was sealed off with iron bars.  BGM: Corridor of the Sands of Purgatory  "I don't know... Could this be underneath the mansion...? Has there always been a room like this... directly underneath the dining hall...?"They had dropped into what had appeared to be a pit, falling into this room. Therefore, it was natural to assume that this room was directly under the dining hall. However, not even Krauss could bring himself to believe that there were pitfalls rigged in his beloved dining hall, where he had enjoyed his meals for years, and that this dungeon-like room lay directly beneath it. But the ceiling above was of crude stone craftsmanship, and they couldn't understand how they could've fallen from somewhere up there. No, all five people who had been dropped here thought the same thing. Although they'd had the sensation of falling into a pit, there was no way there could be pitfalls in the dining hall, nor could this dungeon-like place be directly under it. But, the truth was that they actually had fallen into this place and were locked in. So, they were confused.  "...It is lucky that no one was hurt after falling from such a height..." "...Shannon, Kanon. Did either of you two know about this room...?" "...No. We did not know of this room either." "...Really...?" "R-Really... We really... don't know about a room like this..." There was a long silence, as if Krauss was evaluating their answer... "...No, it's probably true that you don't know. After all, this is the clean-freak Shannon we're talking about. If she knew about this room, she'd probably scrub this place until it was sparkling. The filth of this room is proof that you two don't know of it. More importantly, I think we should worry about what to do next." "E-Exactly... We need to call the police, o-or rather administer first aid as soon as possible..."Nanjo's words were hollow. Obviously. Six people had been killed in the dining hall. Everybody had seen the exact moment when they'd been killed. And since half of their heads had been destroyed, anyone could tell that the deaths had been instant with just a single glance. Everyone understood that first aid no longer held any meaning...  "Thank you, Doctor Nanjo. We already understand that our partners are no longer alive. Thanks for trying to console us by mentioning first aid." "...Natsuhi..."Once again, a gloomy silence dominated the atmosphere. But Krauss shook his head harshly over and over and, for the time being, decided to forget the pain of losing his wife, and to dedicate himself to figuring out where they were.  Nobody answered. Without any kind of discussion or mercy, six people had been killed in an instant. And, Kinzo had even been so bold as to proclaim that we'd become sacrifices for a ceremony involving 13 murders. Since we've been locked up in this place, we too will probably become the ceremony's next sacrifices soon. Around this time, our eyes became used to the darkness... and, bit by bit, we were able to understand more about the dungeon's interior. What we thought was furniture haphazardly left in the dungeon turned out not to be furniture at all. They were... things like small cages to lock people in, restraints, or else... torture racks. At any rate, it was obvious that it was eerier than a mere jail cell. Since the objects were rusted together and coated in thick dust, there was no doubt that they had been forgotten. Maybe you could even call these things Kinzo's sealed and forgotten madness. However, we had been locked away in this room. Those objects weren't exactly comforting to people who were locked up, hoping to be released without harm... "...At any rate, let's get out of here. We've lost loved ones and friends and would like to spend some time shedding tears, but more than that, I'm worried about the children." "...I-I wonder if the children are safe..." "All we can do is pray... Come to think of it, Kumasawa and Gohda aren't here." "Perhaps... they were able to get away safely..." "You never know. It would be a relief if they were able to meet up with the children..." "When the going gets tough, Gohda-san is reliable, and Kumasawa-san is knowledgeable and calm... I'm sure they'll be able to help the children..." "...Hahahaha. Yes, that certainly would be comforting."Shannon and Krauss smiled bitterly a little. But they quickly realized how improper that was and stopped, clearing their throats.   "I agree. What Father carried out in the dining hall was... the six murders of the first twilight from the witch's epitaph, right?" "Then, the second twilight is to 'Tear apart the two who are close'. We can't deny the possibility that Gohda-san and Kumasawa-san may have been killed after escaping together. We can't cling to the optimistic idea that they must've gotten to the guesthouse and are protecting the children."Kyrie coldly analyzed the worst-case scenario. For her, it was heartbreaking to have lost her beloved husband. But right now, the most important thing was protecting that husband's son, along with the other children, from becoming the insane Family Head's sacrifices. She overcame her sadness with the parental urge to protect children from sorrow. It seemed that both Kyrie and Krauss were strong enough to forget about their grief, if only for the time being... They would let their tears flow later. In order to protect the children, they had to act. "Anyway, let's get out of here... It seems to be a rather old cell. Couldn't we break the bars with something? Let's try searching the entire room for some way to escape." "I wonder if there are any torture tools lying around all these torture cages. They might be useful as weapons, or to break the bars."Kyrie pulled a lighter from her pocket. She herself didn't smoke, but she kept one tucked away in her pocket to light Rudolf's cigarettes. It was an extremely valuable source of light for searching in this dim dungeon.  "...W-What should I help with...?" "Please just keep up your strength. Father will probably come soon. You're the only one whose words will reach him. In a way, you might be holding our lives in your hands." "...My words... will no longer reach him, I think. I'm sorry, but I don't believe I will be of any use..." "Then lend us your expertise as a doctor. I wonder if there exists a drug that can make people instantly faint." "...A drug that makes people instantly faint...? What are you talking about...?" "We believe we fell through a pit and landed in this dungeon. In that panic-stricken moment, that's what we believed happened." "...But I measured the breadth of this room and came to a realization. This dungeon can't be underneath the dining hall." "Why do you say that...?" "...You're an idiot, Nee-san. Compared to the dining hall, this dungeon is too cramped." "Exactly. The first person to fall was Krauss nii-san. The second was myself. When you fell into this room, did you move from that spot, Krauss nii-san?" "...It's embarrassing to say, but the landing hurt, and I lay there groaning in pain. Immediately after that, Kyrie-san came crashing down next to me." "The distance between where we were standing and the places where we landed is clearly off." "C-Certainly, when you put it that way... I was the next to fall, so I remember fairly well where you two were standing. The distance between you two in the dining hall might have been greater than this entire room." "We fell into a pit and directly dropped down here. It's not like we fell into multiple interlocking pipes and were all collected here. The fall was instant, wasn't it? I don't remember rolling around in some sort of elaborate water pipe system." "...True, we can't explain it with a pitfall. What a strange tale." "What does that have to do... with a drug that makes people instantly faint, like Kyrie-sama was talking about...?" "But in reality, we did fall." "More accurately, we felt as though we fell into pits. That was only natural. After all, we experienced something that couldn't be described any other way." "I-I see... In other words, this is what you want to say... We did not fall into pits... We were attacked with something like a blowdart, for example, and lost consciousness instantly. It could be that we just remember the instant we fell to the floor as though it were falling through a pit..." "...I see. That's a much more persuasive explanation than there being numerous pitfall traps in the dining hall that we've never noticed, even after decades eating there." "...Nee-san, do you have a watch?" "Huh? Y-Yes. I have a pocket watch... Umm, it's about 22:40." "...Yes. My watch says the same. In short, it's only been a bit more than ten minutes since that uproar in the dining hall, at most." "My watch has the same time. That's much too short a time to knock us out and carry us somewhere. Judging only from the time, it's reasonable to assume that we did fall through a hole leading directly underneath the dining hall." "They could've tampered with the watch hands as much as they wanted. While we were passed out, they may have wound everyone's watches back. We're incapable of proving that this possibility doesn't exist." "...Whether it was a pitfall or a drug that induces fainting, it does not change the fact that we need to be on guard..." "...Well then, Doctor Nanjo, is there a drug that can do that?" "Well... It's the same as your reasoning, Kyrie-san. I cannot prove that there isn't a drug with that effect that I don't know about." "...As they say, you can never be too careful. Sorry, it was a useless question. I just thought that with my hypothesis, I could suggest that this dungeon might not necessarily be directly underneath the dining hall." "Exactly. I'm truly sorry. I've only been asking about and prying into useless things." "No, it's quite promising. If you notice anything else, please tell us. It might become a hint to escaping from here. Rudolf was always talking about you. He said he was always surprised by your ideas, and they would sometimes give him valuable hints. The fact that you're here is a blessing within a tragedy." "...Thank you. I heard something from Rudolf-san as well. He said that you usually just swagger about, but when things get serious, you overflow with a sense of responsibility and can be a very dependable older brother." "Hahaha, that's too kind. Dammit, at any rate, these iron bars won't even budge. How are things on your end, Kanon?" "...No, this side is no better."Krauss and Kanon tried wiggling the bars in various ways. There were a few bars that could be twisted... and a few had enough space to rattle a little bit around in, but they couldn't be broken with human strength alone. However, there was still hope if they could use some kind of lever-like tool. It was still far too early to give up yet. The children's lives were hanging in the balance. Even if there was no hope, they couldn't stop their struggle. And, it was better for them to act this way. If they were to stop, there's no doubt they'd once again be overcome by the grief of losing their loved ones and curl up, clutching their knees...  "...I've found some small stones that we could hold onto and hide. Something like this could probably be used as a weapon. Though, it'd probably be impossible to whittle down those iron bars with them. How about you, Shannon-chan...?" "No, nothing. Ah, this is... a phone." "I doubt it's connected. But, we might be able to use the cord as some form of string-based weapon. If we break it, we could take out the metal parts. Krauss Nii-san, there's a keyhole for opening the bars, right?" "Yes. It's a pretty large hole, quite old fashioned. If we twist some wire into it, we just might be able to pick it." "We might be able to use the metal parts of the phone as a substitute for something. This phone will become our weapon." "It's just like investing. Our weapon is information."Krauss and Kyrie laughed together at how they hadn't even thought of using the phone as a means of communication. "...What are you doing, Nee-san?" "Ah, um, I just wondered if maybe the phone was w-working..." "(*whisper*) ...You dummy, Nee-san." "Huh...? ...What?"At that point, Shannon let out a small, surprised cry.  BGM: Rhythm-changer "What did you say...?"It was like when people move out of an office, taking everything with them, leaving only the telephone behind... That's the feeling the phone gave off, having been left in the corner of the cell. The cord was wound into a coil, the tip of it being swallowed by the wall, and just looking at it, there was no reason to assume that it wasn't hooked up. But, to think that it was actually was... Kyrie took the receiver from Shannon and pressed it to her ear. Certainly, the electric hum of a phone was a familiar sound. And this phone was certainly live. "Wh-What good luck...! Let's contact the police...!" "Hold on...! This is too good to be true. Could it be bugged...?!" "If they were planning a trick like that, normally they would cut the telephone line. There's actually a good possibility that they overlooked this. If they notice, they might actually cut the line this time. There's nothing we could tell the police that would be problematic for us if they overheard."...Surely, that was true. The point of a wiretap is to overhear some important piece of information, but the way things were right then, she couldn't think of a single thing that would come up in a conversation to the outside world that might be troublesome to have overheard. Kyrie instantly concluded that it was more likely to be a mistake on Kinzo's part than a trap... "Y-You do have a point... I believe you start with 0 to make calls through the external line..." "Kanon-kun, I'm going to make a phone call, so will you watch how things are out there for me? If you sense somebody coming, let me know." "Y-Yes...!" However, she pushed the hook down and re-dialed many times. It didn't seem to be working very well. "...The outside line begins with 0? 110 would be 0110 then, right? It doesn't seem to want to go through..." "Hand it over here, I'll try to call..."Krauss took the receiver in Kyrie's place and tested various things... But in the end, they were unable to notify the police... The phone itself was definitely live, but the circuit was apparently cut somewhere. Did this mean that 'they' were not so naive? "...So it's useless after all..." "It means our enemies aren't naive either..."Kyrie let out a deep sigh, leaned against the wall, and hung her head for a while. As cool-thinking as she was, for a brief moment, she may actually have had the naive hope that the phone might actually work. She sneered at herself mockingly for holding onto that naive hope for even a single moment. Then, she remembered just what was happening here. Truth be told, even after being shown a scene like that right before her eyes... or rather, exactly because of that... She still couldn't think of that gruesome mass murder as something real... It was less that she couldn't believe it... and more that she didn't want to. Ushiromiya Kinzo killed six family members. He summoned strange, witch-like, demon-like people... right out of thin air, and with something like magic, began to kill people one after another... ...It's just all so screwed up. Even though she definitely saw it, there was no way she could accept that spectacle...  BGM: Stupefaction But when those six had had their heads blown apart, a golden arrow had flown around and around the room. That had truly looked like... magic. Was that another thing we just saw wrong? There's no way it was magic. It was definitely some kind of setup. Since those heads were smashed, there's no doubt it was some kind of explosive. For example, a styrene toy plane like they sell at candy stores, painted gold, and with a powerful explosive loaded onto the end of it. However, though it had seemed to be flying about at random, Kyrie couldn't imagine that after being fired six times, each time had perfectly hit the victims square in the head, one after the other. It couldn't be that there was a computer control system for finding and hitting targets, making it a high-tech styrene plane on the same level as a guided missile, right...?  A number of mysterious people appeared out of thin air, six people had their heads demolished by a mysterious golden flying object, and the five of us were locked away in a mysterious dungeon by a mysterious set of pitfalls, or else put to sleep by some fainting poison dart... The family conference started a bit after 22:00. It's only been a bit more than 30 minutes since then. Most likely, even though I witnessed it myself, that event took place in such a short period of time, so I still can't understand it, and I still can't come to grips with it. For argument's sake, even if we did get ahold of the police, it would probably be impossible for anybody to accurately explain what we saw... Even though I saw it just now, my brain's fried, and I have no confidence in what I saw myself... Kyrie tried her hardest to cheer herself out of her overwhelming confusion, to just hold onto her sanity...  "Dammit, what's going on here, dammit, dammit...!"Krauss started to become desperate, hitting the hook multiple times and resetting the dial. Krauss had also been feigning composure, but he was unable to hide his panic. The more he retried the dial, the more the pretense of serenity peeled away... I don't know what's going on anymore... Kyrie couldn't help but pray that the events that had just occurred were a dream... ...At that time, the look on Krauss's face changed.  BGM: Rhythm-changer "R-Really, Krauss-san...?!" "I see, how shallow, old man...! Since we can't contact the police, the external line has probably been cut, but he failed to sever the internal line...!" "The internal line? Krauss-san, where did you call...?!" "The guesthouse. I'm calling the room where Jessica and the rest are staying...! Ah?! Hello! Hello?! It's me...! You're...! Gohda?! Is Jessica there, is she safe...?!!" "Dad!! Is it Dad?! I'm so glad you're okay...!! Is Mom okay?! Is she there?!" "...Your..."Krauss choked on his words. Krauss had clearly seen Natushi's head crushed, had seen her killed right before his eyes... Eventually, he was going to have to tell that to Jessica. However, Krauss began to fret over whether he should tell her now or not... and lost his words. But even that was an answer under these circumstances...  "...Yeah. I understand. I'm sorry... for asking."Jessica's voice was filled with tears... Krauss was certain now. Jessica and the rest had heard everything, start to finish, after meeting up with Gohda and Kumasawa at the guesthouse... When they learned that six people had been killed, they must have been anxious to rush over to the dining hall. Luckily, he'd been able to call before they'd stormed off towards the mansion. Krauss was relieved at this good timing during such a tragedy... "We have Kyrie-san and Doctor Nanjo, as well as Shannon and Kanon here. We've been locked in a place that's like a dungeon, but don't worry. We'll figure something out." "A dungeon? Where?! We'll come and save you...!!" "Unfortunately, we can't figure out where this is either. We think it may be under the dining hall, but that might not be true. Anyway, Jessica, you must stay where you are. You've heard about what happened from Gohda and Kumasawa, yes?" "Yeah... Grandfather... everyone..." "Grandfather isn't in a sane state of mind right now. If you encounter him, you'll be in danger. You might be killed...! You mustn't even think about trying to come and save us...! We'll take care of ourselves." "Th-Then what should we do?! drat you, Grandfather, how dare you do that to Mom and the rest...?! I'm gonna kill that undying bastard...!!" "Jessica, if you talk like that, you'll sadden your mother. Those aren't the words of a lady." "Uuuuuuu, uuuuuu...!!" "Anyway, put your own safety first. Lock all the guesthouse doors. But you mustn't overestimate how safe that will make you. The large window in the first floor lounge might get broken. Stay in your room, and use a bed to make a barricade. There's a toilet and fridge in there too, right? You should be able to stay holed up until tomorrow morning. Listen up, I'll say it again. Don't think of doing anything violent. Don't even think about trying to take revenge for Mom! Only think of hiding, of getting through this without provoking our enemies." After that, Gohda took the phone... and was firmly told to supervise the kids well, as an adult. Gohda, with his face covered in a cold sweat, repeatedly replied "Yes sir, yes sir!" in an excessively tense voice. From there, Kyrie took the receiver and spoke with Battler, and when Shannon and Kanon got their turns, George and Jessica answered. Following that pattern, Nanjo and Kumasawa picked up as well, so that all members of both sides took the receiver in turn, confirming that everyone was safe for now, even if their location was unknown, and encouraging each other, coming to an understanding on the current situation for both sides. They wanted to talk forever, but now was not the time to chat. Krauss explained that they would be hanging up for now, and those in the guesthouse consented. "If anything happens, we'll call. Wait by the phone so you can pick it up quickly. Again, be careful. You mustn't do anything rash...!" "...Y-Yeah, I understand... As long as you and... Kanon-kun and the others are okay, then that's good enough for me... We'll do our best. Stay safe...!" "Yes, of course. Well then, I'm hanging up for now. Be on your guard."
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Feb 19, 2017 14:26
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idonotlikepeas posted:This is my read on it, too. The version of Rosa that only hates Maria is just as fake as the version that only loves her. Abusive parents feel both things at the same time. Yeah. People, even abusive people, are complicated. A parent who genuinely didn't give a poo poo about their kid would probably just abandon them for good without a second thought once they no longer had a reason to keep them around.
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Feb 19, 2017 15:34
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Hidingo Kojimba posted:Yeah. People, even abusive people, are complicated. A parent who genuinely didn't give a poo poo about their kid would probably just abandon them for good without a second thought once they no longer had a reason to keep them around. There's that, and... well, this is implied to be a sort of meta-dream that Maria (or piece-Maria, or whatever) has, what with Beatrice there to sympathize and call her a "true witch." So nI wonder if Rosa's whole spiel there is based both on the implication of Rosa's abuse and things Rosa might have told her and forgotten about. Children tend to be more perceptive than many adults allow.
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Feb 19, 2017 20:25
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We had a mysterious off-screen Beatrice, we had a private school Beatrice, and super evil guro Beatrice. I'm looking forward to the new abused vengeful child Beatrice, and seeing how things might go down.
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Feb 19, 2017 20:39
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| # ? May 25, 2024 08:56 |
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Hmm, so Kyrie remembers seeing the golden light and the pit traps. But none of them mentioned it on the phone, so if everyone in the dungeon dies then this could still just be made up, even Kyrie's inner thoughts.
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Feb 20, 2017 05:20
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