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Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


BlankIsBeautiful posted:

Would a tungsten carbide abrasive bandsaw blade do the job?

Maybe? I've never used one. Though looking at price you could get a set of power nippers for $50, so cheaper than the blade.


Brekelefuw posted:

Could you screw the thin sheet between two pieces of wood ?

That's an interesting idea. Technically it's supported, but the differing densities might present an issue.

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Leperflesh
May 17, 2007

You'd also be trying to cut wood with a fine-toothed metal blade. I expect you'd need a hard wood to keep the sheet metal from just deflecting into the wood.

Also if you have a lot of cuts to make you'll be chopping up a lot of wood.

I think the right approach is to use the correct tool for the job, instead of trying to make the bandsaw work.

Yooper posted:

Ideally you'd use a shear, barring that you can use an abrasive cutoff wheel, plasma cutter, or a set of power nippers.

If you don't want to buy a shear for a single job, maybe you can rent or borrow one.

oxbrain
Aug 18, 2005

Put a glide in your stride and a dip in your hip and come on up to the mothership.

Yooper posted:

one slip and now you've got knuckles in blade.

Psh, it'll be fine. I haven't lost any fingers yet...





:ohdear:

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


Gotta love that moment of clarity you get just after doing something dumb and getting away with it.

Things I've done :

Leaving the chuck key in and starting the lathe.

Setting the Z as a negative in relation to the table.

Rapid a $3,000 carbide multi-tool into the side of a part.

Realizing that strange sensation was 480V and the cabinet wasn't locked out.


Whoops!

Yooper fucked around with this message at 03:10 on Feb 18, 2017

honda whisperer
Mar 29, 2009

Yooper posted:

Gotta love that moment of clarity you get just after doing something dumb and getting away with it.

Things I've done :

Setting the Z as a negative in relation to the table.


Edited quote

First week running a hurco. Pressed + instead of - for my tool offset...

Vrrrrrr BANG

Golf clap from the rest of the shop

oxbrain
Aug 18, 2005

Put a glide in your stride and a dip in your hip and come on up to the mothership.

Yooper posted:

Things I've done :

G98 feed rates in G99 mode. :getin:

A Proper Uppercut
Sep 30, 2008

Sticking my head in a running wire Edm and touching my metal glasses to the wire. Little spark explosion next to my eyeball.

Acid Reflux
Oct 18, 2004

Yooper posted:

Things I've done :

Setting the Z as a negative in relation to the table.

Rapid a $3,000 carbide multi-tool into the side of a part.

These kinds of things are humbling even when it's a $30 (or a $3) tool on a hobby machine. Thankfully, pieces of a 1/8" bit have very little mass and don't have a lot of energy behind them as they depart the table.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


Acid Reflux posted:

These kinds of things are humbling even when it's a $30 (or a $3) tool on a hobby machine. Thankfully, pieces of a 1/8" bit have very little mass and don't have a lot of energy behind them as they depart the table.

The sudden and incredible violence is over so quick you really don't know it happened.

We had a 24" grinding wheel explode on a machine once, that was impressive. It had a defect in the hub casting and when we torqued it down the hub cracked and whammo.

edit : The $3,000 tool was on a Devlieg Jigmill. We used to to resurface parts on some of our machines. It had an elevator that let the operator move vertically with the tool. We had to pour a ten foot deep concrete pad for it. This isn't our machine, but I think it's the same model. We later sold it to a shop that makes ore boat parts.



We fixtured up the machine on the machine using a 50,000lb ceiling gantry crane. The guy I was helping told me to get the tool in position. So I entered in the coordinates into the super-creaky ANILAM controller and watched as the tool smoked itself into the side of the casting.

Yooper fucked around with this message at 14:19 on Feb 19, 2017

Ambrose Burnside
Aug 30, 2007

pensive
a runaway 6" grinding wheel did a kickflip off my face and exploded on the floor a ways behind me., that was cool, and hurt, and taught some important lessons regarding "not assuming the last person to use the tool left it in a safe state"

Volkerball
Oct 15, 2009

by FactsAreUseless

Yooper posted:

Leaving the chuck key in and starting the lathe.

:stare:

My worst is probably the time I fed a 3" disk mill cutter into a 60" by 2" shaft without so much as a clamp in place because I got distracted during a set up. That's a big piece of steel to be bouncing around like a dropped pencil. :v:

But my favorite story is the time I crashed a machine because I forgot a period. My Z wasn't high enough to clear the fixture when it returned to home, so I changed it from Z4. to "Z6". Since there was no period, it didn't read the 6, and it defaulted to Z0. So the cutter pulled up to the top of the part, and broke the bottom row of inserts on it as it went 100% rapid into the clamp.

Samuel L. Hacksaw
Mar 26, 2007

Never Stop Posting

Volkerball posted:

But my favorite story is the time I crashed a machine because I forgot a period. My Z wasn't high enough to clear the fixture when it returned to home, so I changed it from Z4. to "Z6". Since there was no period, it didn't read the 6, and it defaulted to Z0. So the cutter pulled up to the top of the part, and broke the bottom row of inserts on it as it went 100% rapid into the clamp.

I've seen that before. Some Fadal machines I worked with would default to interpreting numbers with no decimals as thousandths of an inch. It's a common enough mistake and at least you hit the fixture and not the part!

Ambrose Burnside
Aug 30, 2007

pensive

Samuel L. Hacksaw posted:

I've seen that before. Some Fadal machines I worked with would default to interpreting numbers with no decimals as thousandths of an inch. It's a common enough mistake and at least you hit the fixture and not the part!

the Haas machines im learning on all do this and it's dumb as hell

Samuel L. Hacksaw
Mar 26, 2007

Never Stop Posting

Ambrose Burnside posted:

the Haas machines im learning on all do this and it's dumb as hell

It is a setting that can be changed so that they interpret everything without a decimal as inches, but in the event of a gently caress up I'd rather gently caress up by .006" than 6".

Karia
Mar 27, 2013

Self-portrait, Snake on a Plane
Oil painting, c. 1482-1484
Leonardo DaVinci (1452-1591)

Samuel L. Hacksaw posted:

I've seen that before. Some Fadal machines I worked with would default to interpreting numbers with no decimals as thousandths of an inch. It's a common enough mistake and at least you hit the fixture and not the part!

The machines I work with have it as a parameter setting, but by default everything without decimals is in 0.0001mm or 0.00001". But in equations, it reads everything literally: X[5] is X5.0. Fanuc controls are weird.

Ambrose, would you mind checking that on a Haas machine, if they've got macro programming? I know VQC interprets differently than everything else on Haas control, but I don't remember if all of the macro programming does, and I'm curious. Guy I know did Z-05 for a probing op rather than Z-0.5. Probe body straight into the part because it was trying to go down 5 inches.

Broken stuff for me, I managed to smash a custom PCD reamer straight into the fixture while looping a section of perfectly functional code to check servo repeatability. Part of the code wiped one of the work offsets because I needed it for something else, and then I set it back to the wrong number. I wrote that code three months before the crash, I'd just never come across a situation where I was actually using that work offset again before resetting it properly. Couple hundred buck tool, holder was fine, hit a piece of sheetmetal covering on the fixture. Dodged a huge bullet there: it could have been the 180mm PCD facemill.

Ambrose Burnside
Aug 30, 2007

pensive

Samuel L. Hacksaw posted:

It is a setting that can be changed so that they interpret everything without a decimal as inches, but in the event of a gently caress up I'd rather gently caress up by .006" than 6".

Yeah, that's a good point- makes particular sense for student machines.

Sagebrush
Feb 26, 2012


Yeah, that's a common enough mistake that the lathes in our school shop (and indeed, in all the school shops I've worked in) have a big compression spring around the outside of the key so that they push themselves back out. Otherwise you'd get a chuck key flying across the room every other day.



You can probably buy these somewhere, but every one I've seen appeared to be homemade. Buy an appropriate-diameter spring, unwind one end a bit, drill a hole partway through the key body, stick in the bit of unwound wire, done.

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747
At BCIT it was a lot simpler: get caught with the key in without your hand on it three times, you fail out. Turn the lathe on with the key in, fail out.

His Divine Shadow
Aug 7, 2000

I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.
Wanna make a round carbon steel griddle for my 22.5" weber grill this summer. I am thinking something that covers either half the grill, or the whole thing, replacing the grill cover entierly. Things I am concerned about are what thickness of steel and how preventing warpage from heat. The thicker the better I guess, but there's a limit to what I can work with, 3mm or 1/8" thickness is probably as thick as I could go...

ReelBigLizard
Feb 27, 2003

Fallen Rib

MohawkSatan posted:

At BCIT it was a lot simpler: get caught with the key in without your hand on it three times, you fail out. Turn the lathe on with the key in, fail out.

That's pretty harsh, but understandable.

I've done it before at a friends workshop, it was pretty un dramatic as I was pootling the machine along at low speeds but it scared me enough that I've never done it since.

His Divine Shadow posted:

Wanna make a round carbon steel griddle for my 22.5" weber grill this summer. I am thinking something that covers either half the grill, or the whole thing, replacing the grill cover entierly. Things I am concerned about are what thickness of steel and how preventing warpage from heat. The thicker the better I guess, but there's a limit to what I can work with, 3mm or 1/8" thickness is probably as thick as I could go...

IIRC Cold-rolled stock will warp more with heat than hot-rolled thanks to the induced stresses from forming, that's probably as important as thickness. If you wanted to be super smartypants about it you could probably design a griddle pattern that has some expansion relief in the geometry. Other reasons you may want thickness is for thermal mass. A fresh steak hitting thin material will suck the heat right out of thin stock; think cast iron skillets and pizza stones.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012



We have those due to OSHA requirements. I don't mind them when the chuck is close to the part diameter but when the previous guy was turning a 2 inch diameter part and now I have to crank it fifty loving times to get it down to my 3/8" stem, well, I hate you. Luckily I don't have to deal with this very often. I suppose with production work you'd only have to do a quarter turn at a time, but with production work I'd stick it in the Haas and let the power chuck do the work.

His Divine Shadow posted:

Wanna make a round carbon steel griddle for my 22.5" weber grill this summer. I am thinking something that covers either half the grill, or the whole thing, replacing the grill cover entierly. Things I am concerned about are what thickness of steel and how preventing warpage from heat. The thicker the better I guess, but there's a limit to what I can work with, 3mm or 1/8" thickness is probably as thick as I could go...

I have a 3/8" piece of 1040 in my oven to help with pizzas and such. It works awesome, but even at that thickness it warps. A piece of 1/8" on a grill is gonna be warped like an airplane wing. I'd call up your local steel supplier and ask them to burn out some 3/8" for you to the shape you need. They might do it for ridiculously cheap.

Cast iron would be the ideal solution.

Yooper fucked around with this message at 13:53 on Feb 20, 2017

Samuel L. Hacksaw
Mar 26, 2007

Never Stop Posting
Stress relieve it. By this I mean heat it to gain growth temperature and hit it with a hammer for about 10 minutes then allow it to air cool. It will be warped, flatten with material removal and keep it cold while doing so.

Stress relieve yo griddle

Ambrose Burnside
Aug 30, 2007

pensive
I'm gonna make myself an aluminum tooling plate as an easy hand-coded CNC project. Can I get away with plain ol extruded flat bar given a face-mill haircut or should I spring for that fancy cast-n-machined MIC 6 stuff? I dunno how substantial the price difference is yet.

Samuel L. Hacksaw
Mar 26, 2007

Never Stop Posting
Mic 6 is cast and treated so its essentially 7075-t6. It cuts like stainless but eats the poo poo out of tools. Bog standard 4xxx series will be fine. Besides, it's a fixture plate, you're going to gently caress that thing all up.

Mic 6 is also hella expensive.

E: Skim both sides and make sure you shim it for the first side if you want it flat. More stress relief poo poo to keep it from turning into a saddle.

Samuel L. Hacksaw fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Feb 20, 2017

Ambrose Burnside
Aug 30, 2007

pensive

Samuel L. Hacksaw posted:

E: Skim both sides and make sure you shim it for the first side if you want it flat. More stress relief poo poo to keep it from turning into a saddle.

What dyou mean shim it?

CarForumPoster
Jun 26, 2013

⚡POWER⚡

Ambrose Burnside posted:

I'm gonna make myself an aluminum tooling plate as an easy hand-coded CNC project. Can I get away with plain ol extruded flat bar given a face-mill haircut or should I spring for that fancy cast-n-machined MIC 6 stuff? I dunno how substantial the price difference is yet.

If youre handcoding I feel I have to add: square up the whole thing following standard square up a block procedures.

Whats your goal with the tooling plate? I'd probably just buy whatever but something overaged like 7075-T78 or 6061-T7 will be more dimensionally stable over time. gently caress expensive materials for a hobby/learner project.


Ambrose Burnside posted:

What dyou mean shim it?

I think he means run an indicator across the face and add shims for the amount that it is out.

...I'd prefer to just mill it flat.

Samuel L. Hacksaw posted:

Mic 6 is cast and treated so its essentially 7075-t6. It cuts like stainless but eats the poo poo out of tools. Bog standard 4xxx series will be fine. Besides, it's a fixture plate, you're going to gently caress that thing all up.

I had not heard of Alcoa's precious Mic 6 material before this post but 7075-T6 is a metastable alloy temper, i.e. dumb for tooling plate because corrosion/dimensional stability in thick sections. IDK if Mic 6 actually is anything like 7075 btw

CarForumPoster fucked around with this message at 03:52 on Feb 21, 2017

Samuel L. Hacksaw
Mar 26, 2007

Never Stop Posting

Ambrose Burnside posted:

What dyou mean shim it?

The first step is try to start with a plate that's not all hosed up. The closer it is to flat, the better. If you're looking at a 0.06" saddle warp in your plate just throw it out or cut it into smaller plates for something else.

Put the plate flat on the CNC table and get it fixtured so that you can skim the top. Tighten it down and run a dial indicator over the surface. Mark out the high and low spots and place metal shims to level the indicated surface. Shimstock is usually thin (0.0005" paper to like 0.02" brass. I usually use steel shims), and you'll probably have to do the clamp/indicate/shim process a few times until you're within about 0.001". Then skim the surface until it just cleans up, then go to the depth of your highest shim stack.

After that, flip it over flat on the table with no shims and skim the other surface by about the same amount, don't bother indicating this one, the first side should be flat and you want to copy that over to this side since you shimmed out the plate defects on the first skim cut. Take it to a surface plate and see what you've got!

Disclaimer: I was taught this by a guy named Mr.Mike that owns a lot of tractors but it always got me withing a couple thousandths on lovely machines.

Also of note, this copies the machine tram onto your fixture plate, so make sure you know the machine tram is good and be aware of that when you position the plate, long axis aligned with the coordinate with the least runout.

E: This is milling it flat. By all means though just do it without shimming first, it might come out fine. Shimming is a necessary skill though. Especially if something has to be machined in it's natural state, I.E. can't be deformed under fixturing load.

Samuel L. Hacksaw fucked around with this message at 03:46 on Feb 21, 2017

His Divine Shadow
Aug 7, 2000

I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.

Yooper posted:

I have a 3/8" piece of 1040 in my oven to help with pizzas and such. It works awesome, but even at that thickness it warps. A piece of 1/8" on a grill is gonna be warped like an airplane wing. I'd call up your local steel supplier and ask them to burn out some 3/8" for you to the shape you need. They might do it for ridiculously cheap.

Don't really have a local steel supplier, more like a scrap yard and a general construction firm place that might have something. I dunno 3/8s seem excessive, I might be able to get up to 1/4". Perhaps one could weld angle iron or square tubing or flat bars on the bottom to force it to keep flat. Perhaps a square or triangle.

I found someone did something similar, but a Y shape instead, that's 1/4" steel:

mekilljoydammit
Jan 28, 2016

Me have motors that scream to 10,000rpm. Me have more cars than Pick and Pull
Thinking of weldments, over the last few weeks (uh, if anyone is wondering why I haven't been on the stick regarding cast skulls...) I've decided to make an engine dyno. First part, the impeller, pictured thusly.



That's designed to be made out of 1/4" plate (mostly) and ends up a smidge under 11" OD. I'm speccing the bearing package and seals to survive 15k RPM. What could possibly go wrong?

Ambrose Burnside
Aug 30, 2007

pensive

CarForumPoster posted:

If youre handcoding I feel I have to add: square up the whole thing following standard square up a block procedures.

Whats your goal with the tooling plate? I'd probably just buy whatever but something overaged like 7075-T78 or 6061-T7 will be more dimensionally stable over time. gently caress expensive materials for a hobby/learner project.

Yeah, I have a feeling it'll end up being half CNC half manual depending on how confident I'm feeling, I reckon I'll do most of the stock prep on a knee mill and drill the hundred-odd holes with the Haas and mayyyyybe the tapping too, but I've never let the robot cut threads for me before so I might do that bit on the manual mill too.

My Taig mill at home needs a tooling plate, ideally one that can take common 3/8-16 clamping hardware instead of/alongside Taig's weird #10-32 standard for the t-slot nuts, plus reamed holes for dowel pins. There's lots of -other- stuff I wanna take a crack at eventually, particularly a lil boring head and a flycutter, this is just a particularly accessible/manageable project for me (and dovetails well with where I'm at in school so freeing up some personal project time on the machines will be an easy sell to the prof)

Samuel L. Hacksaw posted:

The first step is try to start with a plate that's not all hosed up. The closer it is to flat, the better. If you're looking at a 0.06" saddle warp in your plate just throw it out or cut it into smaller plates for something else.

Put the plate flat on the CNC table and get it fixtured so that you can skim the top. Tighten it down and run a dial indicator over the surface. Mark out the high and low spots and place metal shims to level the indicated surface. Shimstock is usually thin (0.0005" paper to like 0.02" brass. I usually use steel shims), and you'll probably have to do the clamp/indicate/shim process a few times until you're within about 0.001". Then skim the surface until it just cleans up, then go to the depth of your highest shim stack.

After that, flip it over flat on the table with no shims and skim the other surface by about the same amount, don't bother indicating this one, the first side should be flat and you want to copy that over to this side since you shimmed out the plate defects on the first skim cut. Take it to a surface plate and see what you've got!

Disclaimer: I was taught this by a guy named Mr.Mike that owns a lot of tractors but it always got me withing a couple thousandths on lovely machines.

Also of note, this copies the machine tram onto your fixture plate, so make sure you know the machine tram is good and be aware of that when you position the plate, long axis aligned with the coordinate with the least runout.

E: This is milling it flat. By all means though just do it without shimming first, it might come out fine. Shimming is a necessary skill though. Especially if something has to be machined in it's natural state, I.E. can't be deformed under fixturing load.

ohhhhkay now I get it, that makes sense. Yeah i woulda just jumped straight to fixturing and facing but I get how not shimming so the thing's milled flat while distorted under tension might be self-defeating.

Ambrose Burnside fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Feb 21, 2017

Sagebrush
Feb 26, 2012

I was watching Conan the Barbarian again recently and, while that opening scene is just awesome, the sword-making is bugging me. In the film they bizarrely cast the steel into a sword shape, then go ahead and forge it anyway (for dramatic effect obviously). Is casting a valid way of making a strong sword? Doesn't seem like there's much reason to cast it in the first place if you're just going to forge it afterwards. Could you make a sword just by casting and grinding?

Also, more of a historical question, but would medieval smiths have been able to pour molten steel? Would they have hot enough furnaces and suitable crucible and mold materials?

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


Sagebrush posted:

I was watching Conan the Barbarian again recently and, while that opening scene is just awesome, the sword-making is bugging me. In the film they bizarrely cast the steel into a sword shape, then go ahead and forge it anyway (for dramatic effect obviously). Is casting a valid way of making a strong sword? Doesn't seem like there's much reason to cast it in the first place if you're just going to forge it afterwards. Could you make a sword just by casting and grinding?

Also, more of a historical question, but would medieval smiths have been able to pour molten steel? Would they have hot enough furnaces and suitable crucible and mold materials?

You can make a blade by casting and grinding but it will not have the strength that a forged one would. This is different from a piece of cold rolled steel that has a knife blank laser/plasma cut out of it as the cold rolled is still a cold forging process. The blade would get the benefit of forging after it is ground and heat treated. Whether or not it's as strong as a blade that was hammered from lump to knife I don't know.

There's a ton of high end knife makers in my area that almost exclusively make knives from laser cut cold rolled plate.



In regards to the medieval smith I don't know. Wikipedia's Blast Furnace article details some medieval forges https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blast_furnace#Catalan_forges. It looks like a maybe?

Leperflesh
May 17, 2007

Until the late medieval period, essentially all steel outside of China was made using bloomery process or some adaptation of it, e.g., iron ore was smelted at temperatures below the melting point of iron. Yes, that's possible, although counterintuitive.

quote:

In operation, the bloomery is preheated by burning charcoal, and once hot, iron ore and additional charcoal are introduced through the top, in a roughly one-to-one ratio. Inside the furnace, carbon monoxide from the incomplete combustion of the charcoal reduces the iron oxides in the ore to metallic iron, without melting the ore; this allows the bloomery to operate at lower temperatures than the melting temperature of the ore. As the desired product of a bloomery is iron which is easily forgeable, it requires a low carbon content. The temperature and ratio of charcoal to iron ore must be carefully controlled to keep the iron from absorbing too much carbon and thus becoming unforgeable. Cast iron occurs when the iron melts and absorbs 2% to 4% carbon. Because the bloomery is self-fluxing the addition of limestone is not required to form a slag.

The small particles of iron produced in this way fall to the bottom of the furnace, where they combine with molten slag, often consisting of fayalite, a compound of silicon, oxygen and iron mixed with other impurities from the ore. The mixed iron and slag cool to form a spongy mass referred to as the bloom. Because the bloom is highly porous, and its open spaces are full of slag, the bloom must later be reheated and beaten with a hammer to drive the molten slag out of it. Iron treated this way is said to be wrought (worked), and the resulting iron, with reduced amounts of slag is called wrought iron or bar iron. It is also possible to produce blooms coated in steel by manipulating the charge of and air flow to the bloomery .[1]

As the article notes, carbon steels were produced by additional processes: manipulating the flow of air, or alternatively, carburizing wrought iron billets, or if there's carbon steel on the outside of the bloom, carefully cutting it away to produce hunks of steel with varying percentages of carbon content. (A major reason why pattern welding was used in various places was to get the most from this preciously small and varying quality of carbon steel, by folding it with mild steel to produce a composite material with the toughness of the mild steel and the edge sharpness and retention of the carbon steel. It should be understood though that despite its reputation, a pattern welded steel is strictly worse than a 100% carbon steel blade, in terms of sharpness and edge quality, which is why pure steel blades replaced pattern welded blades anywhere that consistently high quality steel became available.)

The Chinese did things differently and had invented the blast furnace by the 5th century BC! There's some indications they may have used bloomery processes before then, but basically they led the rest of the world by over a thousand years in terms of advancing to a more efficient iron smelting and steelmaking process.

In Medieval Europe, however, the bloomery process was gradually industrialized and scaled up until the 14th century, when blast furnaces started to replace bloomeries. A blast furnace generates temperatures sufficient to fully melt iron, which can then be poured into molds or whatever. This iron is pig iron, though, and has to be further processed to get carbon steels.

So, Conan. Basically yeah it's horseshit. The Conan movie is an adaptation of Howards' stories, so we aren't necessarily glued to his canon, but either way: Conan's village is a tiny hamlet of "barbarians" who have the knowledge of steel making, but are otherwise regarded as backwards by their more civilized neighbors. There is no indication they're operating a blast furnace, which would be a big operation requiring a lot of infrastructure. Even if they were, it'd be pointless to pour the pig iron into the shape of a sword, because you'd need to process it first to get steel.

But. Conan also lives in a magical world where ghosts are real and people can turn into snakes. You are free to suppose that his people are making use of secret alchemical processes or maybe their god, Crom, magically transforms molten whatever metal into mega-steel which is superior. Thulsa Doom is portrayed as valuing Conan's people's steel: the opening scene seems to suggest they're there to murder the adults and take captives, but Thulsa also clearly wants the sword. The theme of the film is Conan's search not only for vengeance, but for the answer to the Riddle of Steel, and Doom tells him that he knows the answer (flesh is stronger). He proves this by showing his power over flesh is absolute, but Conan's father's sword is broken, and this is a revelation to Conan too: that nothing is permanent, that a sword isn't as reliable as one's own personal power, etc. etc.

So the making of Conan's father's sword in the opening scene is foreshadowing: it's metaphor and not necessarily intended to show us a real-life realistic sword making process. The sword is forged and made, as is Conan, in fire and then death. But like the sword, Conan is later broken. Unlike the sword, Conan is recovered and ultimately survives. In that light, the swordmaking scene's inaccuracy to real life is forgivable. Probably the cinematographer put no additional thought into being realistic and wanted some cool looking film, which pouring molten metal gave him in a way that working a bloom might not have (in my opinion working a bloom is also super cool, but it's likely the film makers didn't know about the process and didn't care to find out, either).

Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Feb 21, 2017

Ambrose Burnside
Aug 30, 2007

pensive
As an interesting aside, it's pretty much established that the metalworking complex of at least parts of sub-Saharan Africa included the direct production of carbon steel from ore that made use of a heated air blast of the sort that didn't show up in European steelmaking until the 19th century. Anthropologists managed to catch some Haya tribe elders in the 1970s who still remembered their traditional steelmaking techniques (Bessemer steel imports having put them out of business decades prior) and successfully produced good steel directly using a cone-shaped clay kiln smelter design that incorporated air channels that wound around the kiln perimeter. Excavations elsewhere have shown far older structures that map onto the Haya smelter, so it's a safe assumption that the technology was once more widespread and more widely-used. I've also heard that African steel was very well-regarded in antiquity and exported to the Maghreb Roman colonies and elsewhere, so it all fits.
(http://www.jstor.org/stable/529465?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents - about the steelmaking stuff)

Slung Blade
Jul 11, 2002

IN STEEL WE TRUST

Also consider that in the general (fake) historic era the film was going for was comparable to the late bronze age / very early iron age. Bronze is cast into weapons, so they probably only did half the research they should have done.


Having run a bloomery event, I highly recommend it as a fun weekend activity sometime if you're so inclined.

Ambrose Burnside
Aug 30, 2007

pensive
lots of polearm heads excavated in china dated to the warring states period are made of cast iron, which i guess is the hilarious-but-coherent outcome of "gently caress we need shitloads of weapons to equip conscripted armies on short notice and bronze is really expensive but iron is cheap and we got this blast furnace thing somewhat worked out so what the gently caress ever"

e: i deffo wrote about sth else extremely cool once but cant find anything here about it now, maybe it was elsewhere?? regarding the precolumbian metalworking complex, and how the incans in particular were incredibly talented silver/goldsmiths who made constant and very skilful use of depletion gilding and very precise complex alloying and other metalworking techniques that weren't common elsewhere for centuries or millennia, but. BUT. they did all their smelting with naturally-aspirated huayras, which is fantastic at high altitudes and saves a ton of labour, except wind naturally limits the blast you can apply, which meant that huayras were incapable of reaching iron-smelting temperatures. there was at least one active iron ore mine in the Andes when europeans rolled up but they just used it for pigment. they had all the pieces for an iron/steelworking complex, except their great labour-saving asset accidentally prevented them from exploiting it.
the vagaries of history and manufacturing technologies and how they shaped cultures in profound top-to-bottom ways is incredibly, ridiculously interesting to me, if you cant tell

Ambrose Burnside fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Feb 21, 2017

ArtistCeleste
Mar 29, 2004

Do you not?
It drove me nuts when Game of Thrones did the same thing with Jamie's sword. They showed a casting process and then kept calling it forged steel.

The bloomery process would be a great prices to capture for fun but it is extremely labor intensive. It's time consuming, so I understand not including it. But using casting as an alternative is irritating.

I plan to do a bloomery smelt in the coming months. I have never done one but am working with a swordsmith who does then all the time.

As far as grinding making an inferior knife to forging, that was true some time ago. But I am not at all convinced that taking your very carefully manufactured billets, sticking it into the forge and hammering on it is going to make a superior blade. And folding then together with other alloys will be more likely to weaken it at this point than to strengthen it.

Leperflesh
May 17, 2007

My biggest issue with stock-removal knife makers is the worry that they overheat the edge during grinding without necessarily understanding that a quench and temper will be required afterwards. But that should be fairly easy to notice when your blade won't keep an edge.

Other than that, I think it's down to aesthetics and the sort of romantic appeal of a hand-forged item. I don't think hand-forged knives objectively perform better than ground or mass manufactured ones.

Slung Blade
Jul 11, 2002

IN STEEL WE TRUST

ArtistCeleste posted:


I plan to do a bloomery smelt in the coming months. I have never done one but am working with a swordsmith who does then all the time.


My recommendations:
Buy more charcoal than you expect to need.
Get some good metal scoops, and a good strainer/something to get the fines out.
Hire neighbourhood kids to break up the big lumps a few days ahead of time. You will need many bins to hold all the processed fuel.
Don't use 1" square lumber to make your interior form (too jagged), get bundles of twigs or something.
Don't try to host a dinner party by yourself at the same time (this was my biggest issue).
Unless you're trying to do a super-authentic recreation, don't be afraid to toss some rusty scrap in there with the ore.

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ArtistCeleste
Mar 29, 2004

Do you not?
I will be doing it under the guidance of this guy. http://jeffpringle.com (He doesn't take a lot of pictures of his work but there is a very small sample of what he does.)

He does crucible smelts about 6-10x a year and bloomery smelts for CBA and bladesmithing events.

I am arranging for volunteer blacksmiths to help out as he has warned me it's a lot of prep work.

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