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Hello Sailor posted:What about the idea that a particular one of several apocalyptic Jewish preachers in Roman-occupied Judea was actually a deity? This question is a fantastic example of how difficult it is for Christian denominations with centuries of history to discuss theology with those from very recent denominations or atheists raised in said recent denominations. I mean, I could very honestly say, "I do not believe that there was a Jewish preacher in Roman-occupied Judea who was actually a deity," but that would sound like saying, "I do not believe that Jesus of Nazareth was God," which, of course, is something I do believe. Reasons I can't say I believe the idea Hello Sailor suggests: "actually" and "a deity". "Actually" implies that this preacher wasn't really a human preacher (wasn't really Jewish), but was instead another thing, while "a deity" implies something like Zeus, Mars, or Asherah, one entity among many. The deity I worship is not a being but is Being; does not have existence, but is Existence; does not have love, but is Love. I had a similar reaction a while back to an article by a Protestant writer. The title was provocative: "Relax Christian, You Don't Have To Go To Church", but the reason within the article was "The idea that we need to travel to sit in a space with strangers and consume religious entertainment is not at all Biblical." I could honestly say I don't think that's necessary either, while at the same time saying that I think that for Christians, it is essential to go to church at least weekly if possible. But I would have a very hard time actually arguing my point against someone who agreed with the author, because our underlying assumptions and even our use of words are so different.
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Feb 19, 2017 21:39
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zonohedron posted:I had a similar reaction a while back to an article by a Protestant writer. The title was provocative: "Relax Christian, You Don't Have To Go To Church", but the reason within the article was "The idea that we need to travel to sit in a space with strangers and consume religious entertainment is not at all Biblical." I could honestly say I don't think that's necessary either, while at the same time saying that I think that for Christians, it is essential to go to church at least weekly if possible. But I would have a very hard time actually arguing my point against someone who agreed with the author, because our underlying assumptions and even our use of words are so different. Speaking as a Protestant myself, I think it comes down heavily to how you define "church." Something the SBC stresses that I still agree with is that the church as a physical structure is unimportant spiritually except insofar as it might have personal meaning to people. "Church" in the theology I was raised with is a social construct, church is nothing more or less than people who come together to help each other grow spiritually. You can have church in a coffee shop over donuts. "Church" as a physical building is a convenient gathering point for "church" as a social construct, but I for one believe that only the latter "church" has innate spiritual value.
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Feb 19, 2017 21:47
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There's a whole movement among non-denominational and Pentecostal Christians to go back to the roots, essentially, and just form small cell groups doing Bible study. I think the main problem I have with that is that you're not under any form of spiritual direction if it's just ten people getting together in someone's house and "doing church" so it seems like a ripe environment for weird theology. Especially when Pentecostals get involved. They still stress that fellowship is important for Christians, though. If you're trying to go it alone being a Christian you better be a Desert Father or something.
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Feb 19, 2017 22:11
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StashAugustine posted:The Mission is a movie (and an extremely good one) about Jesuit missions in South America during the Spanish colonization. Jeremy Irons plays Father Gabriel, a missionary who works with the indigenous people and keeps them safe from European slave traders on the local mission. Robert de Niro plays Rodrigo, a mercenary slaver who repents and joins the Jesuits in helping the natives. The second half of the movie deals with the Spanish ceding the mission territories to the Portuguese, who demand the Jesuits leave their missions so their slave traders can capture the natives. The movie presents a conflict between resistance and pacifism. Rodrigo reverts to his mercenary ways and leads the people of the tribe in an uprising against the Spanish, but Gabriel sticks to his Christian pacifism and leads the natives in prayer at the mission. The uprising fails, and as Rodrigo's character dies, he sees Gabriel leading the people in a Eucharistic procession out of the mission as the Spanish infantry guns them down. Bloody hell that sounds bleak. Then again it is the conquest of South America. A time period where Christopher Columbus collecting human hands sets the tone of the entire thing.
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Feb 19, 2017 22:12
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The Phlegmatist posted:There's a whole movement among non-denominational and Pentecostal Christians to go back to the roots, essentially, and just form small cell groups doing Bible study. I think the main problem I have with that is that you're not under any form of spiritual direction if it's just ten people getting together in someone's house and "doing church" so it seems like a ripe environment for weird theology. Like Protestants have a monopoly on weird theology.  From an Evangelical point of view, one of the draws behind emphasizing the church as a community and social construct over a hierarchy or physical place is that the former is much more adaptable and flexible during rapidly changing times. I, for example, barely attend church anymore at all because I work most Saturdays, Sundays, and Wednesday nights. There are very rarely any church-hosted events I can attend. But the church I'm currently "attending" does have a Bible study group that meets at a local park every Friday night, so I attend that and call it church.
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Feb 19, 2017 22:19
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Josef bugman posted:Bloody hell that sounds bleak. Then again it is the conquest of South America. A time period where Christopher Columbus collecting human hands sets the tone of the entire thing.
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Feb 19, 2017 22:55
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zonohedron posted:Reasons I can't say I believe the idea Hello Sailor suggests: "actually" and "a deity". "Actually" implies that this preacher wasn't really a human preacher (wasn't really Jewish), but was instead another thing, while "a deity" implies something like Zeus, Mars, or Asherah, one entity among many. The deity I worship is not a being but is Being; does not have existence, but is Existence; does not have love, but is Love. I wasn't implying that at all, actually. What I was getting at is that from the perspective of someone who doesn't follow any of the Abrahamic religions, the idea that Jesus of Nazareth was something either in addition to or other than a human being is approximately as ludicrous as believing that the earth is flat. It might help discussion if you didn't try to redefine words that already exist by capitalizing them. Schizophrenics do that and it doesn't help them communicate, either. What do you mean, precisely, when you say "Being", "Existence", and "Love"? my dad posted:What about the idea that all human beings are equal and have inherent rights? Is this trolling or do I genuinely need to explain the difference between empirical truth and social/constructed truth to you?
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Feb 19, 2017 23:11
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Hello Sailor posted:I wasn't implying that at all, actually. What I was getting at is that from the perspective of someone who doesn't follow any of the Abrahamic religions, the idea that Jesus of Nazareth was something either in addition to or other than a human being is approximately as ludicrous as believing that the earth is flat. And you are entitled to believe that, no one in this thread is going to jump down your throat over believing Christianity is silly and wrong. All we ask is that you don't come in here picking a fight of your own hook.
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Feb 19, 2017 23:14
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Hello Sailor posted:It might help discussion if you didn't try to redefine words that already exist by capitalizing them. Schizophrenics do that and it doesn't help them communicate, either. What do you mean, precisely, when you say "Being", "Existence", and "Love"? zonehedron is using language that most christians (especially catholic christians) are able to understand and recognize; the fact that you need to be communicated to in a different language, one intelligible to you and your background, is a failure of sophistry, not a failure to properly communicate ideas.
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Feb 19, 2017 23:18
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Cythereal posted:Like Protestants have a monopoly on weird theology.
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Feb 19, 2017 23:28
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HEY GAIL posted:i wish i could do that, it's hard to wake up in time for church and i haven't been in a month. but the orthodox valorize the community more even than the catholics do, so saying you could have church in isolation from your parish/bishop is a contradiction in terms for us Whereas Protestants, especially Evangelicals, are quite accustomed to thinking of church in terms of smaller communities. Even organizations like the Southern Baptist Convention are - in theory - just a network of individual churches with similar beliefs that share resources. I think that's part of why church shopping is such a common thing among American Protestants. Broader issues like specific doctrine and points of theology tend to matter much less than the actual group of people you're looking to come together with for the time.
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Feb 19, 2017 23:32
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Grandmother of Five posted:Thanks to everyone who shared favourite books, verse, passages and other scripture, by the way. my personal story isn't particularly unique, i don't think. in high school i got into new age, occultist stuff. you know, aleister crowley type "antisemitic, vaguely christian, british occultist" deal. i didn't find it particularly compelling, and by the time i was a senior i was interested in something new. my brother had recently converted to catholicism, so i decided that i should look into it to better understand why he decided to do that. what i found was a religion filled with rituals, personal devotions, and all sorts of stuff like that that really appealed to me. i was vaguely christian at the time (a story for another time, and by another time i mean "never") and so the only issues i had were with the eucharist (because how can god be present in bread and wine, and what does it mean to consume him?) and the whole "no abortion, no gay marriage thing." i had a breakthrough with both, wherein the eucharist started making sense to me and i basically just went "okay i guess church knows best" about the other things. once i became catholic i was incredibly interested in learning more about theology, since i thought it was basically the field where new ideas and innovations came from, and while studying it in college i came accross liberation theology and, after some hesitation at first, fell in love with it. the idea that god cared about people who are oppressed, people who are in poverty, people who are abused by those in power, it really spoke to me. and after reading about gay liberation theology i realized that my opinion on the whole "church is right i guess" thing shifted, to where i thought church was WRONG. and once i accepted that, well i kinda realized that ever since middle school i had been hiding from the funny feelings i had for guys lmao, and the funny feelings i had about being a guy. and this put me at odds with catholicism, since the whole "man shall not lie with man" and "god made man and woman" things meant that the catholic church, especially the united states council of catholic bishops, not only taught that what i was was morally wrong but actively worked against my rights and the rights of people like me. i always though catholic social teaching was trying to straddle the line between upholding capitlaism and realizing it was a system designed to create human misery, but even catholic social teaching said that all people deserved to work and that work is a right fundamental to all humans. and yet, here it was trying to fight laws that would guarantee that my gender and sexuality wouldn't bar me from employment! i found it hard to believe that they represented christ, and after some time at seminary trying to find some way to remain christian without being catholic i simply gave up. prior to becoming catholic, i had tried to be buddhist. not very well; i was in middle school, and like an eccentric middle school student i engaged with buddhism in a way that was immature. still, i have had some profound personal experiences with buddhism, prior to being christian, and those stuck with me after conversion. a lot of my work in undergrad and seminary was focused on inter-religious dialogue and theology of religions (as well as lgbt stuff). heck, i published an article about comparing catholicism and jodo shinshu! so when i found that catholicism wasn't right for me (because even stepping foot in a church felt like being slapped in the face) it's really no wonder that i turned to buddhism for spiritual nourishment. during my studies, i found out that jodo shinshu has been doing same sex marriages in america since the 1960s. that's possibly the earliest any buddhist organization has done that in america, if not religious. so knowing that i was welcome was a major thing for me. the fact is, though, that i had already accepted the premise of budhism; there is suffering, and that suffering is because of desire. we exist in samsara, and because of that our lives are filled with suffering, death, and rebirth into more suffering and death. escaping samsara requires one to practice buddhism, but how could i, who had so ardently been catholic, hope to practice buddhism? it seemed impossible; and in fact, it is. jodo shinshu teaches that we as people are incapable of attaining buddhahood on our own. it is only by relying on amida tathagata that we are able to be reborn in amida's pure land and attain buddhahood under his instruction. so, really, i would say that jodo shinshu had the right teaching (very sectarian, non meditative (i hate american buddhism's focus on meditation to the exclusion of other practices), and full of buddhist philosophy to dive into) at the right time. i don't know, i guess i just feel uncomfortable when i don't believe in anything, and for me being buddhist is fairly easy compared to being christian or catholic. there's a lot of pain associated with god and christ for me, to the point that i don't want to deal with that. on the other hand, amida teaches that all who call on his name, regardless of race, gender, nationality, sexuality, class, karma, etc is able to be reborn in his pure land. hard to argue with a sect that teaches absolute depravity and uses it for inclusion instead of exclusion, you know?
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Feb 19, 2017 23:38
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Senju Kannon posted:simultaneously insulting to people with mental illnesses AND religious people Based on the portions of the brain that show activity on scans, there probably isn't much difference between religious faith and mild schizophrenia. Hello Sailor fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Feb 19, 2017 |
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Feb 19, 2017 23:40
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Hello Sailor posted:Based on the portions of the brain that show activity on MRI scans, there probably isn't much difference. It's quite clear that you're in this thread looking for a fight, nothing more. Please stop posting here.
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Feb 19, 2017 23:42
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Cythereal posted:Whereas Protestants, especially Evangelicals, are quite accustomed to thinking of church in terms of smaller communities. Even organizations like the Southern Baptist Convention are - in theory - just a network of individual churches with similar beliefs that share resources. if you're interested in intellectual history, that goes way back to calvin's distinction between the invisible church and the visible church, although he was referring to the state of people's souls, not what you literally do.
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Feb 19, 2017 23:42
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HEY GAIL posted:if you're interested in intellectual history, that goes way back to calvin's distinction between the invisible church and the visible church, although he was referring to the state of people's souls, not what you literally do. Also, I think you know by now that I don't think God actually cares about what denomination we belong to or our different points of theology as long as we adhere to the covenant He made with us through his son. I say believe what makes you happy and participate in a community that makes you feel comfortable.
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Feb 19, 2017 23:44
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Hello Sailor posted:Based on the portions of the brain that show activity on scans, there probably isn't much difference between religious faith and mild schizophrenia. Define mild schizophrenia.
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Feb 19, 2017 23:46
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Hello Sailor posted:Based on the portions of the brain that show activity on scans, there probably isn't much difference between religious faith and mild schizophrenia. when cythereal thinks you're too combative to be posting in this thread, you're too combative to be posting in this thread go back to r/atheism and tell 'em we were owned by your enlightenment
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Feb 19, 2017 23:48
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Hello Sailor posted:Based on the portions of the brain that show activity on scans, there probably isn't much difference between religious faith and mild schizophrenia. Lol if you actually believe this.
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Feb 19, 2017 23:53
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Cythereal posted:It's quite clear that you're in this thread looking for a fight, nothing more. Please stop posting here. As you wish. I was just struck by the unintended irony in the post I originally replied to.
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Feb 20, 2017 00:17
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if that's how you want to tell it to reddit, fine
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Feb 20, 2017 00:31
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Thanks for taking the time to share  As an aside, "unique" was perhaps a poor word for me to use. When sharing personal stories, not least when it comes to matters of faith, it is easy to feel as if your own story is uninteresting or mundane, I feel, and personally speaking, it feels difficult to do justice when trying to express deeply held beliefs or a lived experience without personal revelations coming across as mundane. It might sound sort of Hallmark-y, but I figure there is no such thing as a clichéd, mundane or trite living experience, really. The negative aspect of terms like "clichéd" apply only to poor fiction; not genuine feelings of loss or joy in real life, regardless of whether many go through the same experiences or not.
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Feb 20, 2017 00:43
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Someone say more about the proper function and necessity of church, as in the regular Sunday attendance at a service in a building. Educate me about this more. I think the space is incredibly important, because a community can't exist without a space. Incarnation. No one really pushed back that internet shut ins develop poorly and I think lack of physical space is a critical part of that observation. IMHO not least is that the liturgical practices of Jewish Sabbath looks a lot like high church catholic worship, from my limited experience of the former, and even if my Hebrew is rusty and can follow the service because it rhymes so clearly with my own. Parading Torah, processing the Gospel, et al. Any amount of early house church Bible study stuff was just filler to supplement Jewish Sabbath, and as soon as Xtians had big meeting halls that poo poo turned right back into what it always had been. I don't think you can separate the social church from the psychical church any more than you can separate Christ from Jesus. The old adage "standing in the garage doesn't make me a car" is dead wrong-- going to church is literally what puts me in the body of Christ and therefore makes me a Christian. Not the only thing, but not an optional thing.
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Feb 20, 2017 03:11
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WerrWaaa posted:
im pretty sure that as traddy as my hometown church is its basically the only reason why im not posting on /pol/ right now
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Feb 20, 2017 03:17
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Hello Sailor posted:Based on the portions of the brain that show activity on scans, there probably isn't much difference between religious faith and mild schizophrenia. I use my hands to play Beethoven's Moonlight Sonoata. I also use my hands to chop leeks. Ergo, there probably isn't much difference between the Moonlight Sonata and chopping a leek. Please give me a neuroscience grant.
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Feb 20, 2017 03:31
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Sort of on the current subject, has anyone figured out why there are all these hard-right internet Catholics who seem to be almost totally separated from their local parishes? Like where did they even get the idea that it's possible to live a full Catholic life without participating in the communal life of the parish?
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Feb 20, 2017 03:33
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Bel_Canto posted:Sort of on the current subject, has anyone figured out why there are all these hard-right internet Catholics who seem to be almost totally separated from their local parishes? Like where did they even get the idea that it's possible to live a full Catholic life without participating in the communal life of the parish? well it's not their fault their parish is completely heretical and should be avoided lest one become a heretic
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Feb 20, 2017 03:45
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Well, I mean the liturgical denominations have more of a reason for an actual physical church building than the low church Protestants do. Look at the Eastern Orthodox with the iconostasis and its three doors that actually serve a didactic function. It goes beyond just having a physical space and starts to get into the church building being a form of catechesis in itself. e: Bel_Canto posted:Sort of on the current subject, has anyone figured out why there are all these hard-right internet Catholics who seem to be almost totally separated from their local parishes? Like where did they even get the idea that it's possible to live a full Catholic life without participating in the communal life of the parish? Being active in parish life involves talking to people who might not appreciate white nationalism or how the Pope is Satan or how Franco was totally right. Much better to read LifeSiteNews and 1Peter5 and retreat into your echo chamber. The Phlegmatist fucked around with this message at 04:10 on Feb 20, 2017 |
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Feb 20, 2017 03:59
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The Phlegmatist posted:Well, I mean the liturgical denominations have more of a reason for an actual physical church building than the low church Protestants do. edit: not only do different people in the community during the liturgy symbolize different entities in heaven (the choir is a type of the cherubim, the priest is a type of christ, etc), but the church building is a type of the cosmos, too Bel_Canto posted:Sort of on the current subject, has anyone figured out why there are all these hard-right internet Catholics who seem to be almost totally separated from their local parishes? Like where did they even get the idea that it's possible to live a full Catholic life without participating in the communal life of the parish? >"your ideas suck, you fascist weirdo" >"gently caress him" >posts on the internet about how authoritarianism is the only way and you have to obey your superiors in all things HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 04:08 on Feb 20, 2017 |
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Feb 20, 2017 04:05
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StashAugustine posted:im pretty sure that as traddy as my hometown church is its basically the only reason why im not posting on /pol/ right now I mean, clearly I love internet communities. So how does a virtual space become a holy space? There are hard righters meeting in physical space too. So space, right, its a thing that means things I guess? I think the stripped down and no-church aesthetic is missing a lot; does that mean their discipleship is missing an equal amount?
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Feb 20, 2017 04:09
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WerrWaaa posted:I mean, clearly I love internet communities. So how does a virtual space become a holy space? There are hard righters meeting in physical space too.
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Feb 20, 2017 04:11
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Numerical Anxiety posted:I use my hands to play Beethoven's Moonlight Sonoata. I also use my hands to chop leeks. Ergo, there probably isn't much difference between the Moonlight Sonata and chopping a leek. Welcome back.
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Feb 20, 2017 04:14
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HEY GAIL posted:So one of the things I would say would be don't allow yourself to become isolated from other peoples' ideas, whether irl or online How much mental space do you give to destructive ideas, though? Wasn't the argument made a bit above that a liberal problem is giving too much weight to crazy, e.g. anti vaccine propoganda, under the guise that all ideas are somehow equal?
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Feb 20, 2017 04:14
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HEY GAIL posted:>tells priest his ideas Hmm, why would the weird cryptofascist want to avoid my church where the Nigerian priest preaches to the congregation of Filipino and Hispanic immigrants.
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Feb 20, 2017 04:15
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P-Mack posted:Hmm, why would the weird cryptofascist want to avoid my church where the Nigerian priest preaches to the congregation of Filipino and Hispanic immigrants. mass in spanish is at eight, mass in polish is at ten, and mass in vietnamese is at twelve, bring your friends 
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Feb 20, 2017 04:17
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there was a time in my life where if the only mass at or after noon was in a foreign language then gently caress it i'm gonna learn that language
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Feb 20, 2017 04:23
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Senju Kannon posted:there was a time in my life where if the only mass at or after noon was in a foreign language then gently caress it i'm gonna learn that language 
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Feb 20, 2017 04:24
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i already knew latin tho
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Feb 20, 2017 04:28
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Senju Kannon posted:i already knew latin tho 
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Feb 20, 2017 04:43
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It should really give the rad trads pause when they talk more poo poo about Pope Francis than conservative Calvinists do.WerrWaaa posted:How much mental space do you give to destructive ideas, though? Wasn't the argument made a bit above that a liberal problem is giving too much weight to crazy, e.g. anti vaccine propoganda, under the guise that all ideas are somehow equal? This is actually a pretty tough question. Anti-vaxx and white nationalism, etc. really shouldn't be given a floor for debate, because they argue based on an appeal to emotion rather than on any hard facts. On the other hand, the constant feeling of being oppressed is what drives these stupid ideologies. So there's really no good answer at all! Except punching, but I don't think Christians can really do that in good conscience. But that's what The Mission was all about, so.
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Feb 20, 2017 04:50
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