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The Phlegmatist posted:Except punching, but I don't think Christians can really do that in good conscience. But that's what The Mission was all about, so. orthodox can, but they have to feel bad while they're doing it
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Feb 20, 2017 04:52
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tell that to st nicholas
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Feb 20, 2017 04:52
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athanasius contra nazis
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Feb 20, 2017 04:53
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WerrWaaa posted:How much mental space do you give to destructive ideas, though? Wasn't the argument made a bit above that a liberal problem is giving too much weight to crazy, e.g. anti vaccine propoganda, under the guise that all ideas are somehow equal? Well if you're in a Catholic community, there are definitely boundaries and if you push them you might find yourself formally excommunicated. Throwback to that awesome time when the Archbishop of New Orleans publicly excommunicated people for opposing the racial integration of his archdiocese. IIRC he also placed a parish under interdict when they wouldn't accept a black priest.
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Feb 20, 2017 05:15
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HEY GAIL posted:athanasius contra nazis "This crozier kills fascists"? WerrWaaa posted:I mean, clearly I love internet communities. So how does a virtual space become a holy space? There are hard righters meeting in physical space too. So space, right, its a thing that means things I guess? I think the stripped down and no-church aesthetic is missing a lot; does that mean their discipleship is missing an equal amount? Obviously Cythereal isn't going to agree with me (I say, affectionately), but yeah, I think Christians are deprived of something that they need in order to be better disciples if their religious experience is "go sit in a stadium, hear an inspirational speech, sing a song that repeats itself twenty times, have donuts, go home." Catholic churches that look like barns inside, where instead of a crucifix there's a risen Jesus statue looming over the altar, where the priest uses Eucharistic Prayer II and says it AsFastAsHeCan MassInThirtyMinutes OrYourMoneyBack, don't nourish worshippers to the same degree as ones that are full of meaningful art and where prayers aren't curtailed to save time. It's better for my sons that they attend a church where a dozen elderly Hispanic ladies stop them every Sunday to tell me how big, handsome, quiet, good, etc they are, instead of a church where they're just sitting amongst strangers, or instead of being dropped off in the nursery with the other kids while I go off to a small-group Bible study. It's better for them that I can take them up to the stained glass windows and know that this one depicts Zaccheus and that one depicts That Guy Whose Friends Dropped Him In Through The Roof, because then they can learn just by being by the windows (and, as they get older, asking for the stories again).
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Feb 20, 2017 05:28
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hold on though, nobody can shotgun the freaking prayers like they do in latin
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Feb 20, 2017 05:33
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Bel_Canto posted:Well if you're in a Catholic community, there are definitely boundaries and if you push them you might find yourself formally excommunicated. Throwback to that awesome time when the Archbishop of New Orleans publicly excommunicated people for opposing the racial integration of his archdiocese. IIRC he also placed a parish under interdict when they wouldn't accept a black priest.
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Feb 20, 2017 05:41
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Didn't Antioch and Jerusalem excommunicate each other recently though?
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Feb 20, 2017 05:51
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So have any of y'all read Kuyper? I was thinking of reading some of his works and was wondering if you guys would have any particular suggestions on his works to read first.
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Feb 20, 2017 05:57
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HEY GAIL posted:hold on though, nobody can shotgun the freaking prayers like they do in latin a good irish-american priest can get you through low mass in 20 minutes, which is genuinely useful when it's weekday mass over lunch break and you have to get back to work
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Feb 20, 2017 06:28
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The Phlegmatist posted:This is actually a pretty tough question. Anti-vaxx and white nationalism, etc. really shouldn't be given a floor for debate, because they argue based on an appeal to emotion rather than on any hard facts. On the other hand, the constant feeling of being oppressed is what drives these stupid ideologies. So there's really no good answer at all! That's literally the exact same thing the alt right say about "SJWs" though: "they're appealing to emotions and they enjoy playing the victim". I mean, anti-vax is basically a lack of empathy, because technically it would be the safest option for your child to be unvaccinated in a world where everyone else is vaccinated (other that for Tetanus I guess, though you can get that vaccine post-exposure). And the various other things the alt right believe tend to be based on what they perceive to be facts. So maybe their assumptions about the lay of the land are wrong, and we can demonstrate that. Or possibly their observations are correct, but their solutions are ineffective or inhumane. All those things can be argued, there's no need to resort to punching. I get that making politics all about opposing the bad forces of darkness is both easy and satisfying, but that doesn't make it any better when we do it. In a way, isn't this the situation Jesus was in? Judea being occupied by Romans, and many of his peers advocating violence against them? His answer was pretty diplomatic. I once read a really good book by a Jewish guy about how Jesus's comments on politics and theology read from a Jewish perspective. Jesus did not endorse violence, but he did command a kind of passive resistance. The Judeans as a group did continue with the violent answer though, and they got mass murdered and their central institutions (temple) destroyed for the effort. There are various warrior saints, and that has always bugged me. Killing people does not make you a saint, no matter who those people are. Peace & love is better always.
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Feb 20, 2017 07:08
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The Phlegmatist posted:Didn't Antioch and Jerusalem excommunicate each other recently though? edit: orthodoxy is the metal of religions HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 07:53 on Feb 20, 2017 |
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Feb 20, 2017 07:09
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pidan posted:There are various warrior saints, and that has always bugged me. Killing people does not make you a saint, no matter who those people are. Peace & love is better always.
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Feb 20, 2017 07:11
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I don't agree with strict pacifism but I can respect those that do. That said, the question is not 'does killing people make you a saint' but 'can someone who has killed be a saint'
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Feb 20, 2017 07:26
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StashAugustine posted:I don't agree with strict pacifism but I can respect those that do. That said, the question is not 'does killing people make you a saint' but 'can someone who has killed be a saint' Someone who has killed people can totally be a saint, it's just that some saints are saints specifically for being pro-church warriors. That's what I oppose. That guy from the Buddha stories who killed 999 people and was stopped by the Buddha on his way to the thousandth? He saw the error of his ways and became an arhant and I'm cool with that. But if a guy goes to his grave thinking "it sure is a fine thing I killed all those infidels", he bad. I can't really think of a situation where I'd be forced to use violence to protect a person, but I'm not even saying violence can never be an o.k. response to a violent situation. But escalating violence is always bad, and even self defense is not the most virtuous option.
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Feb 20, 2017 07:37
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pidan posted:I can't really think of a situation where I'd be forced to use violence to protect a person, A defensive war A messed-up person attacking someone (A do agree with you, just pitching in here.)
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Feb 20, 2017 08:32
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pidan posted:Someone who has killed people can totally be a saint, it's just that some saints are saints specifically for being pro-church warriors. That's what I oppose. That guy from the Buddha stories who killed 999 people and was stopped by the Buddha on his way to the thousandth? He saw the error of his ways and became an arhant and I'm cool with that. But if a guy goes to his grave thinking "it sure is a fine thing I killed all those infidels", he bad. Saints are also often Saints because their family was willing to put up cash/ political favours for it. Look at St Stephen of Hungary. He may have introduced a crap tonne of reforms but he didn't really start the Christianization process. It was more a means of the family that followed him legitimising themselves. Virtue matters little when people are being killed by those without it.
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Feb 20, 2017 08:36
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For the past couple of weeks, a couple of Jehovah's witnesses have visited me, and I have invited them to speak with me for as long as they'd like. It has been an illuminating experience to speak with evangelizers who have radical commonalities and differences with me. I can't speak for every one of Jehovah's witnesses, but Robert seems to be a brother of goodwill, a repenting sinner and a genuine believer. He is also much more literate of scripture than I am, I admit with real embarrassment. But after thought and prayer, I do not foresee myself becoming baptized as one of Jehovah's witnesses. It is not (just) because I prejudge the Catholic Church to have superiority over all other traditions of Christianity in all things, but even more so because I trust the Catholic Church, which I have returned to in the brightest and darkest moments of my life. It is much easier to trust in God and in Jesus Christ than it is to trust any earthly institution or person. Trust is a hard currency to earn from anyone. pidan posted:I can't really think of a situation where I'd be forced to use violence to protect a person, but I'm not even saying violence can never be an o.k. response to a violent situation. But escalating violence is always bad, and even self defense is not the most virtuous option. I think it's a blessing to be grateful for if you do not have to imagine a situation where you would be forced to use violence to protect someone else, and I am not thankful enough for all the days without violence I've enjoyed. There is violence in the real world right now, and real people (too often they're children) forced to make decisions based on the reality of that present violence. If you or anyone has to react to immediate violence, I really do not want to judge the reaction that happens, any way it could go. But you're also onto something more important, which is that it does not take the grace of Jesus Christ to respond to violence with violence. We can expect anyone to defend themselves or loved ones or countrymen or even strangers. We can expect anyone to run the other way. And we must acknowledge the ability for evil to lure people into escalating violence. But none of those was the choice Jesus made, and he did predict his disciples will make different choices. Josef bugman posted:Bloody hell that sounds bleak. Then again it is the conquest of South America. A time period where Christopher Columbus collecting human hands sets the tone of the entire thing. Aside from its merits for exploring the moral dilemmas of confronting slavery, The Mission is also worth watching for its entertainment value, too. The music is stand-out good. My first time watching it was in 7th grade social studies, and even then I knew I would remember Gabriel's Oboe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAoT2ktM2H0
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Feb 20, 2017 09:50
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On the topic of people ignoring their parish because of their political views. While it is annoying when crazy Franco fans do this, what do you think about people who do this because their parish is too conservative? HEY GAL, I think, said, she wouldn't go to a Russian church, for example, which is somewhat understandable, if you have other options, I guess, but what should people in Poland or Russia do, where the majority of ecclesial communities are, well, not always progressive? I know people who now rarely go to church on Sundays, because, for example, the priest is somewhat heavy on family values, which often veers towards women being obligated to be mothers first, you know how it goes. It deeply saddens me, too, but it's really hard to discuss the issue without aggravating someone, which is the last thing you want when they already waver, so the usual arguments about church community and importance of sacraments may not work.
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Feb 20, 2017 10:29
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Paladinus posted:On the topic of people ignoring their parish because of their political views. While it is annoying when crazy Franco fans do this, what do you think about people who do this because their parish is too conservative? HEY GAL, I think, said, she wouldn't go to a Russian church, for example, which is somewhat understandable, if you have other options, I guess, but what should people in Poland or Russia do, where the majority of ecclesial communities are, well, not always progressive? I know people who now rarely go to church on Sundays, because, for example, the priest is somewhat heavy on family values, which often veers towards women being obligated to be mothers first, you know how it goes. It deeply saddens me, too, but it's really hard to discuss the issue without aggravating someone, which is the last thing you want when they already waver, so the usual arguments about church community and importance of sacraments may not work. I was really fortunate that what brought me into religion and the Catholic Church was a profound experience that God wanted me there. Me, personally; there, specifically. I was also, by Providence, introduced really early on to John of the Cross, whose name I took for confirmation. All this kinda got in my head really early on that I'm not religious because of what it does for me. I'm religious because it is an obligation, an obligation of love, but an obligation none the less. So even when I've been in situations were I really did not agree with the priest or hated the music it never even crossed my mind not to go to mass at all. If that's how my community is expressing shared worship, then I'll say something if it becomes objectively objectionable, like literal heresy or breaking the rubric so bad the mass is invalid. Also, I might say something when feedback is sought. I am also fortunate, coming off of that, that I don't live in a place where I think the Church is committing great evil. I hope I would still recognize that worship of God is still an obligation, and just materially not support the Church and do everything I could to change it, but this is one of those things where I can't know what I would do until the only church I can go to is, objectively, an agent of evil.
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Feb 20, 2017 12:39
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zonohedron posted:Obviously Cythereal isn't going to agree with me (I say, affectionately), but yeah, I think Christians are deprived of something that they need in order to be better disciples if their religious experience is "go sit in a stadium, hear an inspirational speech, sing a song that repeats itself twenty times, have donuts, go home." Catholic churches that look like barns inside, where instead of a crucifix there's a risen Jesus statue looming over the altar, where the priest uses Eucharistic Prayer II and says it AsFastAsHeCan MassInThirtyMinutes OrYourMoneyBack, don't nourish worshippers to the same degree as ones that are full of meaningful art and where prayers aren't curtailed to save time. I say to each their own. Much as I might rag on some more traditional theology in this thread, I truly believe that God doesn't care about our theology as long as we agree with the main points embodied in Christ. I say go with the church community that works for you, and everyone is ultimately different and has different needs. I'm one of those people whose greatest inclinations to think about spirituality and consider God come when I'm outdoors with a small group of people, not cooped up in a building with a [few] hundred people I don't know and never will. I came to Christ through thinking privately about everything I'd grown up hearing and evaluating everything I'd mindlessly parroted back to people, only talking over my thoughts with a select few friends and family. Not everyone is like that. Not everyone should be. Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling.
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Feb 20, 2017 13:10
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HEY GAIL posted:(nothing against greeks or romanians, just i happen to know that they have a lot of schismatics) I am going to, again, protest against using the word "schismatics" do describe anyone, regardless of what they're doing.
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Feb 20, 2017 13:20
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I'm "boring" in the way that I grew up within a Catholic family in a traditionally Catholic area where to this day non-Catholics are a small minority, so I guess I talk instead about the way I developed an active intereset in religion and the Church instead of becoming a lapsed Catholic or leaving the Church wholesale like most others of my age group do. For me it was the liturgy: even though my grandfather was a deacon and and I was therefore no stranger to going to church, I never really was all that interested in it. It was just something you did to appease your grandparents or because the sisters at school made you to. When I was 16 or 17 though, I read up a bit about the history of the liturgy - stuff like how the vestments developed out of ancient Roman or medieval everyday clothing, or how the Sursum Corda is a call-and-response thing that probably is one of the most ancient parts of Mass, dating back at least to the 4th century, that sort of stuff. I got really fascinated with it over time and read a lot of wikipedia articles. One time (that would have been shortly because I graduated from school, I think) I talked to my grandmother - a very devout Catholic woman who goes to Mass daily and even says the liturgy of the hours - about that topic, and she simply asked me: "I can see you're really interested in that, but why don't you simply go to Mass and see it for yourself?". I had no real reply to that, so I guess I started to follow her advice and went to church  The parish I formally belonged to when I studied in Freiburg was super happy-go-lucky guitar-playing and "Jesus loooooves you" style catering mostly to young, Green-voting families - which is fine, but wasn't something I couldn't really identify with. I instead half-way regularly went to the Cathedral (the Corpus Christi procession in Freiburg is really awesome!) and the seminary, where the seminarians offered a Wednesday midday Mass with dinner afterwards, which always was cool.I moved to Vienna for my Master's afterwards, thought to myself that it was a real shame that I had never been an altar server and just walked up to my new parish church and asked whether they had use for a 21yo student who wanted to wear weird clothing. They had, and they turned out to have a huge and thriving group of altar servers with lots of people in my age, many of whom I quickly became very good friends with. I became really involved in that parish, sitting in the parish council, organising a ton of different event, going on pilgrimages, becming a supervisor for the altar servers etc., and I learned a ton and had a really great time even if liturgically and doctrinally speaking the parish and I weren't exactly on the same page. I moved back to my hometown now where I joined the choir and hope to slowly get involved here too. So there you have it, no dramatic divine revelation or anything, just a nerdy interest in liturgy, some good luck in parishes and a grandma asking the right questions
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Feb 20, 2017 13:22
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i think when talking about violence it's important to realize that violence isn't just a single, personal act between one person in a specific situation, but also the structures of society which affect all of us. the black community in america, for instance, is exposed to violence daily; the threat of white supremacist enforcers (the police) enacting state sanctioned murder against members of their community every single day is as violent as punching a man in a face, but it's the sort of violence which, for the most part, is only condemned by the black church i think hand wringing about violence against, or about ostracizing, certain individuals/movements who advocate for genocide of entire races is missing the point; advocating that ideology is NOT legitimate. it is not simply an idea; it is itself violence, a violence which seeks to normalize brutality against entire peoples. it has no place in the public sector, and those who advocate it should be afraid to show their faces in the street. the solution to nazis isn't to debate them into submission; they want to debate you. they want you to protest them. they want attention. what they don't want is to be sucker punched during an interview, they don't want to be attacked at their protests by men and women in balaclavas with bats. when dealing with people who talk about jewish people and black people as though they're subhuman it's important to remember that it's jewish people and black people who are being victimized by violence, and that attacking them physically is defense. jesus whipped money changers in the temple and said to his followers that they needed to carry a sword, after all so for me it's important to ask WHY that saint killed people rather than to say killing people is not saintlike. joan of arc led her people against an invading army (i don't know poo poo about the hundred years war because i am not a nerd so if i am wrong please correct me but my impression is that after the normans invaded and settled in england the english crossed the channel to do a war for a hundred years) and i'm not entirely comfortable with saying that doing that is not saintlike. don't get me wrong; i'm totally against colonizers and imperialists being made saints. people who participated in genocide should be looked down on if not forgotten by history. but i don't think we should confuse pacifism and holiness, because at its best pacifism can be a radical expression of resistance in the face of a society mired in violence and which supports subjugation; at worst, it can be the act of abiding evil without resistance. i think that man who befriends kkk members and even gets them to renounce their views is doing a wonderful thing; i also think that using him to denounce people who counter march the kkk misses the point of fighting fascists like that
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Feb 20, 2017 14:17
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Senju Kannon posted:
"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."
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Feb 20, 2017 17:50
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Senju Kannon posted:
Regardless of who was rightfully king of France, the English tactics by that point of the Hundred Year's War involved lots of gratuitous murder and harassment of innocent peasants even by contemporary standards, so good for Joan I say.
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Feb 20, 2017 17:55
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CountFosco posted:"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." if christians actually believe that then why are they talking about bathroom laws lmao if they actually believed that they wouldn't be opposed to things like fair wages for women because a woman's place is in the home i knew what i said when i said "they actually use it for inclusion" cause lmao if anything churches either ignore that passage or use it to bludgeon marginalized groups for speaking up about their marginalization
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Feb 20, 2017 17:58
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Maybe if progressive voices and people stuck around in the church to have a moderating influence on those on the right instead of abandoning churches because they were flawed and imperfect there'd be less of that? *shrug* The full explanation of why things are the way they are is a mystery to me. I've become a catechumen at ROCOR, a more right-wing Orthodox community. Prior to my decision I had a conversation with a Met. at a post-liturgy luncheon hour and expressed to him that I was coming to it from a more liberal-leaning, leftish background, and he made it tremendously clear that all sorts of gifts, talents and backgrounds were welcomed in the church.
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Feb 20, 2017 18:06
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how dare i not stay in a church that thinks it's a sin for me to live my life as a woman and get married to a man i love, it's my fault that the catholic church is the way it is i should have just ignored the priest who told me god wants me to live as a man and done theology to fight against that attitude, even though that road leads to poverty and unemployment as no catholic or christian university would hire someone like me to teach no for real there is no way me, a non-cleric theologian, would ever influence anyone in the church ever. i can't even get a job at the usccb and i didn't even tell them i'm not catholic anymore! having a publication where i out myself and call for the catholic church to moderate its views on gender and sexuality was enough to keep them from hiring me (okay i don't actually know that that's the case, there are a number of reasons why they wouldn't have hired me but i can't help but look at positions that have the requirement "believe in church teachings on marriage and sexuality" and wonder if they started adding that whole "believe in catholic teachings" clauses cause of me or people like me applying to office assistant positions) people aren't required to remain in spiritually abusive churches on the off chance that their influence somehow "moderate" the abusiveness of that church, and it isn't their fault if they decide to leave
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Feb 20, 2017 18:11
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Senju Kannon posted:i think hand wringing about violence against, or about ostracizing, certain individuals/movements who advocate for genocide of entire races is missing the point; advocating that ideology is NOT legitimate. it is not simply an idea; it is itself violence, a violence which seeks to normalize brutality against entire peoples. it has no place in the public sector, and those who advocate it should be afraid to show their faces in the street. the solution to nazis isn't to debate them into submission; they want to debate you. they want you to protest them. they want attention. what they don't want is to be sucker punched during an interview, they don't want to be attacked at their protests by men and women in balaclavas with bats. when dealing with people who talk about jewish people and black people as though they're subhuman it's important to remember that it's jewish people and black people who are being victimized by violence, and that attacking them physically is defense. jesus whipped money changers in the temple and said to his followers that they needed to carry a sword, after all I’ve talked to Neo-Nazis, and they like getting punched and attacked. They like it for the same reason you like the black bloc aesthetic: It makes them feel like righteous warriors for a good cause. In my country some years ago, Neo Nazis started straight up copying the look and feel of black bloc propaganda, because it’s empty gesture that can be used by anybody for any purpose. If and when it comes to the point of violence in the street, the left loses. The right is more suited to forming paramilitary groups by nature, and they’re more aligned with the interests of the bourgeoisie. Nazis may get punched, but leftists will end up dead. There are very few actual Nazis out there, especially if we use your stated criteria („advocates genocide“). They won’t change their mind once they’ve been punched a bit, and it’s a waste of energy to try and change their mind at all. The minds that can be changed are those of people somewhere in the middle, those who don’t have strong feelings about left vs right one way or the other. And the person being punched by some rando in a previously non-violent situation is inherently more sympathetic than the dude doing the punching. Also you are doing serious harm to your own soul if you stop seeing a Nazi as a person and start seeing him as a target for your work boots. Josef bugman posted:Virtue matters little when people are being killed by those without it. I really don’t agree with this at all. Virtue is not a tool for maximizing your life span, it’s a shape you press your soul into, and it’s among the most important things in this life. Joan of Arc is a strange case, because she didn’t personally kill anybody, but did have visions and was martyred which is classic saint material. But there are some saints whose accomplishments are things like „fought in crusade“, and that’s what I object to.
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Feb 20, 2017 18:30
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We have to remember that, in the most basic sense, Saints are those we are certain are in Heaven. I think it's really presumptuous to assume that anyone who Did A Violence cannot go to Heaven, or that we know better than the Church in these matters. Soldiers and generals can be good and holy, just as they can be vile and wicked. Ours is not to judge.
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Feb 20, 2017 18:39
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pidan posted:Also you are doing serious harm to your own soul if you stop seeing a Nazi as a person and start seeing him as a target for your work boots. Uh, there's a little problem with that. Namely the fact that the alt-right very actively wants to victimize anyone who's not a straight white (maybe religious, maybe not, they still fight about this) man or woman. So in a political climate where people literally want to exterminate you it's natural to want to fight back. The hard rhetoric mostly comes from the Very Serious People on internet blogs, but they influence Jones and Bannon, and both of those people have the ear of the president. That's where it gets scary. That said, yeah there are some weird saints out there that are remembered not for killing people before their conversion but remembered for their militarism afterwards (or in this guy's case, after his death.) St. James Matamoros, literally "slayer of moors."  the alt-right Catholics idolize this guy, deus vult, etc. etc.
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Feb 20, 2017 19:06
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If you could spare some, I'm in need of prayers. My depression and anxiety is coming back something fierce, the city refuses my disability claims, and I'm really worried for my future, which in turn is becoming a kind of spiritual crisis. It feels like all I can do not to despair completely 
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Feb 20, 2017 19:35
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pidan posted:I’ve talked to Neo-Nazis, and they like getting punched and attacked. They like it for the same reason you like the black bloc aesthetic: It makes them feel like righteous warriors for a good cause. In my country some years ago, Neo Nazis started straight up copying the look and feel of black bloc propaganda, because it’s empty gesture that can be used by anybody for any purpose. i don't care about changing their minds i care about them not being given platforms if the media did their job and gave these people as much screen time as the other anime porn watching jackoffs online it wouldn't be necessary to disrupt Nazi speeches, but whelp bill maher agreed with milo on the air and spencer or whatever that waste of cum's name is has been interviewed extensively by the media so guess it's up to the heroes who punch nazis in the face to get them to gently caress off any time spent talking with a Nazi in public is time where that Nazi makes thinking black genocide and the Holocaust are not only acceptable things to want but ideas deserving of time and response. and despite what you may think these leaders at least want genocide so why should i believe they're in the minority? milo advocates pedophilia, so they're probably pedophiles too. you don't discuss calmly the ethical and moral ramifications of molesting children with nambla. you don't give nambla interviews where you call them well dressed and well educated. you don't invite them to your night show and then say they have a point about the ability of children to consent to various things. you don't give nambla a platform, don't give loving nazis a platform either at least the black bloc understands that
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Feb 20, 2017 19:42
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Not really up for the discussion, but pidan, you have no idea what you're talking about. Denying nazis a platform may make them act like martyrs, yes, but not doing it will lead to them putting their ideas into practice, murdering and harassing minorities. It's always the well-off white middle class that advocates not fighting the nazis, but they are also the ones least likely to be targeted by nazi violence. Their only answer is using the state to ban fascists, and then only if widespread nazi violence expose their milquetoast liberalism as useless - but that won't do either, because if you let the state ban assembly of political groups, they will not stop at using them to ban fascist parties, but anyone that threatens their policies.
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Feb 20, 2017 19:58
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Senju Kannon posted:how dare i not stay in a church that thinks it's a sin for me to live my life as a woman and get married to a man i love, it's my fault that the catholic church is the way it is Look, there's a lot to talk about and unpack here, but forgive me if I'm mistaken but I get the impression that you entered Catholicism of your own free will, stayed a while, felt oppressed, and then left of your own free will. Now, you can call that a spiritually abusive church and to a degree be correct, but I think to place the Catholic church in that category softens the use of the term when we talk about more significantly spiritually abusive institutions like the Westboro batpist church, the Jonestown cult, ISIS, or so on. Your pessimism that a non-cleric theologian would not ever influence anyone in the church ever seems to me as lacking in credibility given numerous examples of lay theologians throughout history. Also, you speak of poverty and unemployment as though there is nothing worse than that. I've never applied for a church related job, never even thought about it to be honest. Most churches I am familiar are pretty lean when it comes to employment. I've always worked in the private sector. No one's required to do anything. I'm not required to help my fellow man. I'm not required to dialogue with you civilly. I do it out of love. Walk with all tranquility and immanence!
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Feb 20, 2017 20:10
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edit: actually I'd rather not
pidan fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Feb 20, 2017 |
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Feb 20, 2017 20:11
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CountFosco posted:Look, there's a lot to talk about and unpack here, but forgive me if I'm mistaken but I get the impression that you entered Catholicism of your own free will, stayed a while, felt oppressed, and then left of your own free will. Now, you can call that a spiritually abusive church and to a degree be correct, but I think to place the Catholic church in that category softens the use of the term when we talk about more significantly spiritually abusive institutions like the Westboro batpist church, the Jonestown cult, ISIS, or so on. also; if i had been raised catholic would you agree it was spiritually abusive then? quote:Your pessimism that a non-cleric theologian would not ever influence anyone in the church ever seems to me as lacking in credibility given numerous examples of lay theologians throughout history. quote:Also, you speak of poverty and unemployment as though there is nothing worse than that. I've never applied for a church related job, never even thought about it to be honest. Most churches I am familiar are pretty lean when it comes to employment. I've always worked in the private sector. and i have a master's degree in theological studies. forgive me for the vain hope that this would qualify me for pushing papers in dc when the job says "have a knowledge of catholic teachings." quote:No one's required to do anything. I'm not required to help my fellow man. I'm not required to dialogue with you civilly. I do it out of love. Walk with all tranquility and immanence! pidan posted:I admit to being white and middle class, though I might still be a target for Nazis for other reasons. I spent some time on the edges of the Antifa when I was young, and they're all about posturing and "deglassing" bank buildings, not heroes at all. Beating up the 10 people who wanted to hear Milo talk at that university gave him more publicity than letting him talk ever could have. You don't have to give them a platform, but allowing them to hang themselves by their own rope can be a good strategy. For example, there's a terrible racist in the leadership of our local right-wing party, and allowing him to make a fool of himself in a talk show was very effective at turning people away from him. milo was a bad example for that since he went on bill maher and got sympathy from the host. what a wonderful self hanging that was! also milo was going to read the names of undocumented students so preventing him from doing that was a good thing actually
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Feb 20, 2017 20:26
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Senju Kannon posted:milo was a bad example for that since he went on bill maher and got sympathy from the host. what a wonderful self hanging that was!
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Feb 20, 2017 20:33
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i somehow doubt bill maher agreed with milo that trans women peeing in a public restroom is a threat to women and children because of berkeley probably why the pedophile apologist is going to be at cpac, tho
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Feb 20, 2017 20:34
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