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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:I really disagree, again, that a hive mind should play out any differently than a democracy. A hive mind is just a democracy where they communicate through some other way than talking and writing. hive minds aren't real, dude (and the fictional concept has multiple different interpretations)
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Feb 20, 2017 20:21
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The hive mind is an individual that gets seduced by your spark of genius, maniacal, substance abusive scientist for a planet wide orgy. As seen in the documentary Rick and Morty.
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Feb 20, 2017 20:22
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GunnerJ posted:That hive mind symbol (if that's what it is) appears dead center in the ethos wheel, which to me implies that it is truly beyond any ethos at all. Which, since it is literally a single collective sapient entity spanning millions or billions of brains, makes sense. There's only one "person's" opinion. I think they put it in the middle because they didn't want to have a 1 or 2 point version of it, like the other ethics. To me that implies Hive Mind will either be a 2 or 3 point pickup, but that's my own guess. It just depends on whether they want you to be able to splash an ethic (hive mind + something) or whether Hive Mind is supposed to be it's own playthrough.
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Feb 20, 2017 20:22
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:I really disagree, again, that a hive mind should play out any differently than a democracy. A hive mind is just a democracy where they communicate through some other way than talking and writing. To explain why you are wrong, imagine your guts voting that they should take over your body and your brain should be executed for treason. Instantly, you die. A hivemind works more like a living body and by definition can't work like democracy.
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Feb 20, 2017 20:23
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Rakthar posted:I have a suspicion that Hive Mind might be a 2 or even 3 point pick, and that it would offer some materially different playstyle. Like, no ethics and no ethics divergence on those pops. It's the same color as the other 1 point picks, so I imagine it only costs 1, and probably excludes taking egalitarian or authoritarian. The other ethos could still apply, a spiritualist hive mind is seeking enlightenment while a xenophobe desires to purge the universe.
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Feb 20, 2017 20:24
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GunnerJ posted:That hive mind symbol (if that's what it is) appears dead center in the ethos wheel, which to me implies that it is truly beyond any ethos at all. Which, since it is literally a single collective sapient entity spanning millions or billions of brains, makes sense. There's only one "person's" opinion. Yeah, but that one person/mind still has some sort of opinion on things. If I encountered a hive it would be cool to know if they want to eat me, assimilate me, be left alone, or be friends. Hive + a varieties of civics could equal some sort of "hive personality" or a hive descriptor of some sort. But we really don't know enough about what we're assuming an icon to be to be speculating this much 
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Feb 20, 2017 20:24
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Baronjutter posted:Yeah, but that one person/mind still has some sort of opinion on things. If I encountered a hive it would be cool to know if they want to eat me, assimilate me, be left alone, or be friends. Hive + a varieties of civics could equal some sort of "hive personality" or a hive descriptor of some sort. But we really don't know enough about what we're assuming an icon to be to be speculating this much That's true. And as the post above yours notes, it's the same color as a 1-point pick, so you could have 2 points of other ethos picks.
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Feb 20, 2017 20:26
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Instead of all this speculation, you could wait for Friday's dev diary on the topic.
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Feb 20, 2017 20:28
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Blorange posted:It's the same color as the other 1 point picks, so I imagine it only costs 1, and probably excludes taking egalitarian or authoritarian. The other ethos could still apply, a spiritualist hive mind is seeking enlightenment while a xenophobe desires to purge the universe. That scenario is also possible. I personally am guessing the other way since in that scenario, hive mind is by definition a 'minor' trait only, as in equivalent to other 1 point pickups. I think it would be neat if going hive mind (like the Hivers) had a large impact on your playthrough, so maybe it's represented as an all or nothing choice. The way I interpreted the icon scheme is that green = core belief, orange = fanatical version of that belief, and that there isn't a 'more fanatical' version of a hive mind, just a hive mind. You're right that if you look at it as green = 1 point pickup then it's likely to be 1 point 
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Feb 20, 2017 20:28
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Anticheese posted:Instead of all this speculation, you could wait for Friday's dev diary on the topic. Nah.
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Feb 20, 2017 20:29
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Anticheese posted:Instead of all this speculation, you could wait for Friday's dev diary on the topic. Instead of complaining about people speculating in a thread after a teaser just got posted, you could return on Friday when the dev diary has been posted and perhaps you'll find the discussion more to your liking?
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Feb 20, 2017 20:31
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Anticheese posted:Instead of all this speculation, you could wait for Friday's dev diary on the topic. I'd rather wait for Thursday's.
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Feb 20, 2017 20:36
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Sorry. Time zone shenanigans. I didn't mean to dismiss the discussion entirely, just that we'll know more about the nature of hive minds in Stellaris later this week.
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Feb 20, 2017 20:38
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i wonder if it will be like the networked mod where you pick what type of hive mind (e.g. psychic, bugs, ai w/e)
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Feb 20, 2017 20:40
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If they are in, hive minds are going to be factions rather than empire level stuff. Calling it now. You finally get everyone on the same page as part of your empire wide hive mind faction and then there's a schism and you have two competing factional hive minds, and then a dozen. Darn it all to heck!
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Feb 20, 2017 20:43
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GlyphGryph posted:If they are in, hive minds are going to be factions rather than empire level stuff. Calling it now. Why do you keep saying "if"? We already know Hive Minds are in. This week's dev diary is on Hive Minds (as we've known since last week's Dev Diary). They don't write Dev Diaries about features that aren't actually features.
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Feb 20, 2017 21:00
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GlyphGryph posted:If they are in, hive minds are going to be factions rather than empire level stuff. Calling it now. WE ARE THE BORG. ALL OTHER ENTITIES CLAIMING TO BE THE BORG ARE IMPOSTERS. THE ONLY RELIABLE SOURCE FOR BORG UPDATES IS OUR TWITTER ACCOUNT, @REALTHEBORG
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Feb 20, 2017 21:02
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Founding the Alt-Borg, brb.
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Feb 20, 2017 21:04
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YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED God I'm only being ironic put the phasers away get a sense of humour 
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Feb 20, 2017 21:41
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I hope that there's a different hive mind 'type' for each authority setting. Like, a democratic hive mind would be some kind of 'subconscious consensus' thing going on, monarchy would be your classic 'queen alien with mindless drones' situation, etc.
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Feb 20, 2017 21:47
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RabidWeasel posted:I hope that there's a different hive mind 'type' for each authority setting. Like, a democratic hive mind would be some kind of 'subconscious consensus' thing going on, monarchy would be your classic 'queen alien with mindless drones' situation, etc. Well, since there's a very hive mind looking icon on the authority selection section, that seems unlikely.
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Feb 20, 2017 21:52
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Hive mind materialists, let me upload my collective consciousness to the cloud and become the Geth. 
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Feb 20, 2017 22:15
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Then some fallen empire comes along and dicks with your code and suddenly you're all spiritualist fanatical purifiers
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Feb 20, 2017 22:19
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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:WE ARE THE BORG. ALL OTHER ENTITIES CLAIMING TO BE THE BORG ARE IMPOSTERS. THE ONLY RELIABLE SOURCE FOR BORG UPDATES IS OUR TWITTER ACCOUNT, @REALTHEBORG I laughed. 
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Feb 20, 2017 22:20
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GotLag posted:Then some fallen empire comes along and dicks with your code and suddenly you're all spiritualist fanatical purifiers Please don't remind me of Mass Effect 3 
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Feb 20, 2017 22:22
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GotLag posted:Then some fallen empire comes along and dicks with your code and suddenly you're all spiritualist fanatical purifiers No, then your race goes down to some galactic catastrophe, a newly FLT capable race finds your world and takes your neural scans. Then the xenophile FE demands those scans to clone bodies for you and download your consciousness in them. And they probably make you snails when you were moths before just to gently caress with you,.
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Feb 20, 2017 22:22
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Zurai posted:Well, since there's a very hive mind looking icon on the authority selection section, that seems unlikely. How the gently caress did I miss that 
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Feb 20, 2017 22:38
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GunnerJ posted:Yeah, I was pretty sure those percentages reflect the number of pops subscribing to an ethos. Removing a pop subscribing to an ethos would make its share go down in that case, it's not like the percentage is causing pops to turn to an ethos due to some external force. You have to support a faction aligned with that ethos to make that happen. At least, as I understand the system. It can't be as simple as that, though. If it was you could just resettle all your pops of a different ethos to planets on the edge of your borders, trade them off to your neighbours, and end up with a state that has no ethical problems ever again. There has to be a natural pull to other ethoses that will over time cause pops to drift away from your preferred ethos. And if there's a natural pull, there's also going to be some sort of equilibrium where the pulls of all the ethoses (including any techs, buildings, faction support etc.) balances out. So if you have a materialist empire where 10% of the population are pesky spiritualists, removing all the spiritualists might get rid of them temporarily, but over time the factors which were causing 10% of your population to be spiritualists in the first place are just going to drag 10% of your remaining population towards spiritualism. You'll need to deal with the factors causing spiritualism influence pull, rather than just removing pops.
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Feb 20, 2017 23:06
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Reveilled posted:It can't be as simple as that, though. If it was you could just resettle all your pops of a different ethos to planets on the edge of your borders, trade them off to your neighbours, and end up with a state that has no ethical problems ever again. There has to be a natural pull to other ethoses that will over time cause pops to drift away from your preferred ethos. And if there's a natural pull, there's also going to be some sort of equilibrium where the pulls of all the ethoses (including any techs, buildings, faction support etc.) balances out. So if you have a materialist empire where 10% of the population are pesky spiritualists, removing all the spiritualists might get rid of them temporarily, but over time the factors which were causing 10% of your population to be spiritualists in the first place are just going to drag 10% of your remaining population towards spiritualism. You'll need to deal with the factors causing spiritualism influence pull, rather than just removing pops. The mechanism is Ethics Divergence (if you mouse over a pop, you'll see the ethics divergence %, positive if they have a chance to shift away from your ethics, negative if they have a chance of shifting towards it). There a) isn't a single stable equilibrium (because when a negative divergence effect happens, what the pop flips to is affected by what ethics other pops have) and b) even if there is, it can take a long time to converge to it, so purging individual pops could make a big difference for a long time.
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Feb 20, 2017 23:16
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Wiz, i look forward to sharing photos of my upcoming civil union to the videogame Stellaris, which you have almost singlehandedly saved from mediocrity.
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Feb 20, 2017 23:18
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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:The mechanism is Ethics Divergence (if you mouse over a pop, you'll see the ethics divergence %, positive if they have a chance to shift away from your ethics, negative if they have a chance of shifting towards it).
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Feb 20, 2017 23:22
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Ein Sexmonster posted:The ethics divergence mechanic/ pop ethics are being completely redone in Utopia. Now each pop has a single ethic, and the proportion of ethics your pops will drift towards will be based on a variety of factors. For example, being friends with other species will boost xenophile attractiveness. Ah. Well, depending on how fast the drift is you could still maintain an ethos balance different from your resting one by periodically purging pops with the wrong influence or whatever
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Feb 20, 2017 23:26
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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:Ah. Well, depending on how fast the drift is you could still maintain an ethos balance different from your resting one by periodically purging pops with the wrong influence or whatever Purging seems to be done on a species by species level only come Banks.
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Feb 20, 2017 23:27
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I'm not sure if you can even do targeted individual purges anymore, it sounds like it's on a species by species level. So you can say to purge all the humans, enslave all the butterbutts, and give the spacebirds space drugs. But you can't say "Hey, single pacifist human pop? Get purged" What you can do though is find the faction supported by pops you don't like and suppress the gently caress out of it, making it less attractive. That means less pops joining the faction, but I'm not sure if it means less pops converting to the ethos related to it.
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Feb 20, 2017 23:28
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Rumda posted:Purging seems to be done on a species by species level only come Banks. Right, that's what GunnerJ was asking about, whether the new purge mechanics would prevent you murdering dissidents to maintain your ethos balance
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Feb 20, 2017 23:31
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If we are getting a new Ethics and Traits system will this delete my custom empires, convert them to an equivalent in the new system or just disable them and mark them as needing an update?
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Feb 20, 2017 23:33
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Libluini posted:To explain why you are wrong, imagine your guts voting that they should take over your body and your brain should be executed for treason. Instantly, you die. A hivemind works more like a living body and by definition can't work like democracy.
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Feb 21, 2017 00:46
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Holy poo poo this patch. Every single time i think "this is it, this is the patch" you show off some new system wiz. This single patch is quickly rocketing you and your team fo my favorite developers ever. The sheer amount of changed and improved systems that have annoyed me since release is staggering. I am suffering from Paradox Syndrome hard right now, every single time i look at the launcher i just remember the coming patch and i decide to wait. Is this how Star Citizen fans feels about Croberts? You should wave your hands around more on the streams!
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Feb 21, 2017 00:56
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It might be fun to stack a ton of +ethics divergence to cause whatever faction is in control to lose members until another faction becomes dominant who will then start losing supporters and so on in endless circles.
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Feb 21, 2017 00:57
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Noir89 posted:Is this how Star Citizen fans feels about Croberts? You should wave your hands around more on the streams! I think they plan on actually releasing Utopia/1.5.
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Feb 21, 2017 00:59
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