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lol if you think Corbyn is far left
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Feb 20, 2017 22:03
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Skinty McEdger posted:My council having switched to fortnightly collections is now considering switching to monthly. They also just closed down the big recycling centre in the town itself so I guess I should look forward to fly tipping making a comeback in a big way. My council is torn between going monthly and the entire town filled with old people who have yet to come to terms with two weekly collections yet. I have no idea what our generic backbencher local politicians think they are doing when they blandly promise local jobs for local people, when all they have to do to guarantee a win is to say; "we will make the council go back to weekly bin collections, put on double deckers to Bakewell and Matlock at 9:31, make the post office open up all the tills on pension day and give "local people" priority on council houses. In return for this I would Really Really apreciate it if you all stopped writing to skinner and telling him I'm poo poo" Skinner invaded our town centre and held a women's rights rally the other day because he felt our councilers were not doing enough to combat the gender pay gap in our town. I say invaded because his constituency is the next town over. I loving love Skinner.
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Feb 20, 2017 22:13
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jabby posted:Considering that Labour being 'erased' would lead to exactly what we have now, a Tory majority with a Labour opposition, I don't find it all that interesting. A loss is a loss in our system, the magnitude doesn't affect all that much in terms of policy. jabby posted:Give me an example of a policy difference it has made in Westminster. LemonDrizzle fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Feb 20, 2017 |
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Feb 20, 2017 22:13
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jabby posted:Considering that Labour being 'erased' would lead to exactly what we have now, a Tory majority with a Labour opposition, I don't find it all that interesting. A loss is a loss in our system, the magnitude doesn't affect all that much in terms of policy. John Major, with a majority of 24, had more defeats in five years than Thatcher had in eleven.
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Feb 20, 2017 22:17
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jabby posted:If Corbyns own party can't get him to resign its strange to assume the Tory party has even greater influence over him. He's not going anywhere regardless of the result in Stoke. The tory party is categorically not trying to force Corbyn to resign, quite literally the opposite. Really not sure what greater or lesser influence has to do with anything. It's absolutely bizarre that the result of these by-elections is somehow irrelevant to his future as leader.
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Feb 20, 2017 22:24
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Corbin is the best thing that's happened to the Tory party since Kinnock.
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Feb 20, 2017 22:26
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jabby posted:Who controls the devolved power in Scotland matters in Scotland. Give me an example of a policy difference it has made in Westminster. I'm talking about the death of labour in Scotland.
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Feb 20, 2017 22:29
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LemonDrizzle posted:This is completely wrong - there's a huge difference between a government with a narrow majority that can't afford to alienate any of its backbenchers for fear of being brought down in a rebellion, and one with a bulletproof majority that can basically do whatever it likes without risk. On top of that, electoral performance affects party funding (both directly via Short money and indirectly via effects on donors' willingness to contribute), party workers' morale, and press coverage among other things. Also, when a party has a massive majority it tends to make it more likely they'll keep winning general elections. If you have a massive majority and people start to get sick of you and the opposition does well, you might get re-elected with a smaller majority next time. But if you had a small majority to start with, you're more likely to actually lose when those things happen. There's no mathematical rule that makes politics work that way. In theory, huge numbers of voters could switch parties at the same time. For some reason though, they tend not to. Basically the worse Labour does at the next election, the longer it's probably going to be before they have any chance of winning.
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Feb 20, 2017 22:46
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learnincurve posted:Corbin is the best thing that's happened to the Tory party since Kinnock. The PLP is the best thing that's happened to the Tory party.
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Feb 20, 2017 22:47
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I think that behind a lot of the circular debate about polls and Corbyn the real difference might be that some of us think a Labour government led by (eg) Chuka Umunna would be much better for a lot of people than the Tories and think Corbyn leading Labour to defeat is bad, and others just think that if Labour's not led by Corbyn then we may just as well have the Tories in power so why is everyone complaining? I may be wrong.
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Feb 20, 2017 22:52
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Coohoolin posted:The PLP is the best thing that's happened to the Tory party. Ah yes each one of those successfully elected members of parliament are definitely the Tory's best friend and not your mangled parroting of somebody else's opinion. Paxman posted:I may be wrong. That's the long and short of it. They're wrong.
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Feb 20, 2017 22:52
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Paxman posted:I think that behind a lot of the circular debate about polls and Corbyn the real difference might be that some of us think a Labour government led by (eg) Chuka Umunna would be much better for a lot of people than the Tories and think Corbyn leading Labour to defeat is bad, and others just think that if Labour's not led by Corbyn then we may just as well have the Tories in power so why is everyone complaining? That's how I see it. Too many in the PLP think that running towards what is popular is both good and necessary. Which is fine if Corbyn is leader of Labour, because he doesn't agree with that. But someone like Umunna does, so what you'd get, is to watch Labour double-down on anti-immigration rhetoric, all-in on NHS charges, propping up the housing market and more. At which point, not only are lots of things not demonstrably better, but now you're not even challenging any of the narratives the Tories have got.
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Feb 20, 2017 23:02
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Paxman posted:I think that behind a lot of the circular debate about polls and Corbyn the real difference might be that some of us think a Labour government led by (eg) Chuka Umunna would be much better for a lot of people than the Tories and think Corbyn leading Labour to defeat is bad, and others just think that if Labour's not led by Corbyn then we may just as well have the Tories in power so why is everyone complaining? Some people want Labour to be a socialist party, some people don't care what they are as long as they're a fraction less bad than the Tories. If the PLP really thought Corbyn supporters were a cult of personality they'd approve the rule change allowing another left-wing candidate to be nominated so he could step down. Except they know what Corbyn supporters really support is socialism, and they would just as happily fall behind another leader with the same policies.
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Feb 20, 2017 23:07
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kingturnip posted:Which is fine if Corbyn is leader of Labour, because he doesn't agree with that. This doesn't really wash in light of his article 50 vote decisions. jabby posted:Some people want Labour to be a socialist party, some people don't care what they are as long as they're a fraction less bad than the Tories. I want labour to be a competent, plausible centre left alternative to the Tory party. One that is ready to form a government.
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Feb 20, 2017 23:08
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kingturnip posted:That's how I see it. This was all well and good but Corbyn just whipped his MPs to support the tories on brexit, the biggest single issue of the current parliament, as it would apprently be unpopular to oppose it. That's a bit of a shot to the foot for the principles and values pitch.
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Feb 20, 2017 23:11
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learnincurve posted:Corbin OK
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Feb 20, 2017 23:12
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Pissflaps posted:
Centre left is a bunch of horseshit, because it doesn't exist. There is only 'centre', and that means they swing centre right as well. We want a proper lefty government.
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Feb 20, 2017 23:13
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Miftan posted:Centre left is a bunch of horseshit, because it doesn't exist. There is only 'centre', and that means they swing centre right as well. We want a proper lefty government. It doesn't exist. I see. Jherembe is better isn't it.
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Feb 20, 2017 23:14
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Pissflaps posted:This doesn't really wash in light of his article 50 vote decisions. And because the Tories will never be described as far-right, to be described as centre-left Labour just have to be fractionally less evil. Which is what I said.
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Feb 20, 2017 23:22
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jabby posted:And because the Tories will never be described as far-right, to be described as centre-left Labour just have to be fractionally less evil. Which is what I said. I don't think the last labour government was fractionally less evil than this Tory government.
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Feb 20, 2017 23:25
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Pissflaps posted:I'm talking about the death of labour in Scotland. Pissflaps posted:The days of Ed Miliband now seem like a golden age compared to Labour in 2017. 🤔
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Feb 20, 2017 23:28
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There's no incongruity: Corbyn is overseeing the same happening to labour in the uk as a whole.
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Feb 20, 2017 23:30
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Rustybear posted:This was all well and good but Corbyn just whipped his MPs to support the tories on brexit, the biggest single issue of the current parliament, as it would apprently be unpopular to oppose it. Or you could listen to what he said about the issue and realise it was about the principle of upholding a democratic vote. At the end of the day, attacking Corbyn is just the rights way to draw attention away from the awful mess they're making of governing the country. There's a strange sort of fatigue when it comes to criticising the tories, Trump and UKIP - everyone knows they're dreadful and morally indefensible, so the criticism gets brought up, everyone nods, and then the conversation moves on. Actually having principles to criticise is a weird sort of weakness.
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Feb 20, 2017 23:30
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Gort posted:Actually having principles to criticise is a weird sort of weakness. Do you equally laud Theresa May for her 'principled' support for Brexit?
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Feb 20, 2017 23:32
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Why have principles when you can ride to Eternal Electoral Victory by simply not being a Tory?* *Offer not valid after 2010
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Feb 20, 2017 23:34
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learnincurve posted:Corbin 
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Feb 20, 2017 23:46
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Ed would've won if he had been handled less by the PLP and left to be Ed. He was at his best off script, and would probably be doing quite well now he's up against a far less polished Tory leader.
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Feb 20, 2017 23:56
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LemonDrizzle posted:It's conceivable - the most contentious provisions of the 2015 welfare bill were killed after the Labour and Lib Dem Lords kicked it back to the Commons saying "not good enough, try again." However, I doubt that the Tories will concede on passing the article 50 bill without amendment, and if the government chooses to make a fight of things with the Lords, the government wins. Given Theresa May chose to sit-in on the House of Lords opening speeches, presumably to glower at any Tory Lords who didn't tow the line, I think you're dead right. They'll go for a fight rather than concede anything, with the strength of a double mandate (public ref, and parliamentary vote) to beat the Lords down with. Paxman posted:The abstains were votes they were whipped to abstain on. Eg SNP amendments which said things Labour didn't exactly disagree with but came from the SNP and therefore must be bad in some way. That's some strange voting right there. I, for one, would be very interested in an assessment of the financial liability so the 60bn Euro figure can be assessed.
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Feb 20, 2017 23:58
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Gort posted:Or you could listen to what he said about the issue and realise it was about the principle of upholding a democratic vote. You've just swapped the word 'popular' here for 'upholding a democratic vote' - it's still the same thing.
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Feb 21, 2017 00:01
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Rustybear posted:You've just swapped the word 'popular' here for 'upholding a democratic vote' - it's still the same thing. Do you believe it's always a popular move to implement the results of a democratic vote?
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Feb 21, 2017 00:10
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learnincurve posted:Corbin is the best thing that's happened to the Tory party since Kinnock. That is severely insulting to Kinnock. Kinnock was a bad choice to run the party for many reasons for so long, but he is not Corbyn bad. Their really isn't anyone in British political history as bad a leader as Corbyn. The country is falling apart, outside of Brexit, and yet the Conservatives are storming at the polls all thanks to Corbyn - as he has a VERY negative image with the general populous, so even if he was a natural leader, which he is far from, he would still not be able to lead the Labour party.
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Feb 21, 2017 00:24
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ukle posted:That is severely insulting to Kinnock. Kinnock was a bad choice to run the party for many reasons for so long, but he is not Corbyn bad. Anyone opposing moneyed interests in Westminster would be under the same amount of attack from the right-wing press. It's not unique to him.
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Feb 21, 2017 00:29
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Gort posted:Or you could listen to what he said about the issue and realise it was about the principle of upholding a democratic vote. Ive noticed this in others, general discourse online and in the media, and in myself frankly. Keeping track of politics now is exhausting. You get saturated with endless information and emotion. Maybe thats one reason for the success of fake news; its kitsch enough it doesnt require too much thought from the consumer and can pass scrutiny hidden in the constant flow. We need a break from constantly shifting perspectives with the grinding advance of business interests the only consistency. Demand for politics as an infotainment product itself will probably become a key decider of success
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Feb 21, 2017 00:33
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I still think Corbyn should have done the honorable thing and resigned after the brexit vote. His and Cameron's shared failure to lead the British people away from the precipice are damning indictments of both of them. People jumped down my throat about it back then, but it was because they didnt want corbynismo to end just because of Cameron's stupid referendum. But corbynismo has been a disaster since then.
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Feb 21, 2017 00:34
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Gort posted:Do you believe it's always a popular move to implement the results of a democratic vote? Sorry I really dont understand this question, it won't be very popular with remain voters no. I think the jury is out on the leave side until we've actually gone fully over the cliff edge.
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Feb 21, 2017 00:34
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hakimashou posted:I still think Corbyn should have done the honorable thing and resigned after the brexit vote. No, he should continue to fulfil the will of the members of his party, who have clearly indicated they want him as leader. The membership is sovereign in the Labour party, not rich donors like in UKIP and the tory party. quote:His and Cameron's shared failure to lead the British people away from the precipice are damning indictments of both of them. Cameron is entirely to blame for Brexit occurring in the first place. Corbyn convinced his party to vote overwhelmingly for Remain, but is principled enough to see through Leave as it has a democratic mandate. Cameron engineered Brexit and then resigned like a coward when the chickens came home to roost. quote:People jumped down my throat about it back then, but it was because they didnt want corbynismo to end just because of Cameron's stupid referendum. But corbynismo has been a disaster since then. More like the PLPs sabotage of the Labour Party has been bad for the polling of the Labour Party.
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Feb 21, 2017 00:39
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Paxman posted:I think that behind a lot of the circular debate about polls and Corbyn the real difference might be that some of us think a Labour government led by (eg) Chuka Umunna would be much better for a lot of people than the Tories and think Corbyn leading Labour to defeat is bad, and others just think that if Labour's not led by Corbyn then we may just as well have the Tories in power so why is everyone complaining? Some of us think that the PLP's positions are not tenable in the long run and would simply be forestalling the inevitable. The labour party already lost two elections for being lovely middle of road idiots and you can't keep seeking the middle between yourself and the right. Eventually they'll run out of space to run and I would argue they already have.
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Feb 21, 2017 00:39
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Gort posted:Corbyn convinced his party to vote overwhelmingly for Remain, Horseshit. Labour has been a pro-European party for years. The disappointment is that the Remain vote among labour voters was so low. OwlFancier posted:Some of us think that the PLP's positions are not tenable in the long run and would simply be forestalling the inevitable. The labour party already lost two elections for being lovely middle of road idiots and you can't keep seeking the middle between yourself and the right. Eventually they'll run out of space to run and I would argue they already have. Boo loving hoo. Two whole elections lost you say? One of which came after three labour governments? Better gently caress up the Labour Party for at least the next fifteen years just to be sure. Pissflaps fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Feb 21, 2017 |
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Feb 21, 2017 00:47
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Gort posted:No, he should continue to fulfil the will of the members of his party, who have clearly indicated they want him as leader. The membership is sovereign in the Labour party, not rich donors like in UKIP and the tory party. How about he fulfilled the will of the members of his party by opposing it then instead of three line whipping its passage in the non existent hope of chasing the leave voting working class thats hosed off to the tories/ukip. Or does he get to pick and choose what parts of the members will he follows?
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Feb 21, 2017 00:47
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Pissflaps posted:There's no incongruity: Corbyn is overseeing the same happening to labour in the uk as a whole. Labour was already in trouble by the time it lost the GE and all of Scotland. That's why Miliband quit and that's the situation Corbyn inherited. It's really easy to pretend everything was just great until lousy Corbyn messed everything up It's also easy to ignore that Labour's polling was actually trending upwards for once until something happened in June last year, something about a referendum... and his own party launching a protracted public coup intended to dominate the news cycle with bad PR. Purely a coincidence that this is when Labour's polling tanked though
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Feb 21, 2017 00:52
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