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serious gaylord posted:How about he fulfilled the will of the members of his party by opposing it then instead of three line whipping its passage in the non existent hope of chasing the leave voting working class thats hosed off to the tories/ukip. Do you have some numbers to back up the assertion that a majority of Labour members want to disregard the results of the referendum? Because "Voted Remain" and "Want to disregard the results of the referendum" are not the same thing. Whatever you do though, stay focused on attacking Corbyn rather than the actual architects of Brexit, or the tories might get upset.
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Feb 21, 2017 00:55
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baka kaba posted:Labour was already in trouble by the time it lost the GE and all of Scotland. That's why Miliband quit and that's the situation Corbyn inherited. It's really easy to pretend everything was just great until lousy Corbyn messed everything up Milliband quit because labour lost a general election. quote:It's also easy to ignore that Labour's polling was actually trending upwards for once until something happened in June last year, something about a referendum... and his own party launching a protracted public coup intended to dominate the news cycle with bad PR. Purely a coincidence that this is when Labour's polling tanked though It's easy to ignore this because it's not true. It's a lie. You've made it up. Corbyn and labour was doing badly before, during and after the referendum and leadership election. You are fake news.
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Feb 21, 2017 00:55
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serious gaylord posted:How about he fulfilled the will of the members of his party by opposing it then instead of three line whipping its passage in the non existent hope of chasing the leave voting working class thats hosed off to the tories/ukip. Recent polling showed a plurality of Labour voters backed Labour passing Brexit after the referendum. I suspect that the internal polls that reportedly triggered the three-line whip may have given Corbyn early warning of this.
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Feb 21, 2017 00:56
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Gort posted:Do you have some numbers to back up the assertion that a majority of Labour members want to disregard the results of the referendum? Because "Voted Remain" and "Want to disregard the results of the referendum" are not the same thing. Do you have some numbers to back up the assertion that labour members want to oppose the Tories? Because "voted labour" and "want to disregard the results of the general election" are not the same thing.
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Feb 21, 2017 00:57
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What policies are Corbyn's possible replacements offering other than UKIP light racism? Cos not doing the whole "Legitimate concerns" thing is what's keeping me on Corbyn's side.
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Feb 21, 2017 01:01
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baka kaba posted:It's also easy to ignore that Labour's polling was actually trending upwards for once until something happened in June last year, something about a referendum... and his own party launching a protracted public coup intended to dominate the news cycle with bad PR. Purely a coincidence that this is when Labour's polling tanked though Not quite. Labour have consistently polled around 30-35% for general election preference since mid 2015. The narrowing of the gap in the run up the referendum shows a drop in the tories and a big swing to UKIP while labours numbers remained fairly steady. Then Brexit happened, UKIP no longer had a purpose and they all flocked back to the conservatives.
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Feb 21, 2017 01:02
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Pissflaps posted:Do you have some numbers to back up the assertion that labour members want to oppose the Tories? Because "voted labour" and "want to disregard the results of the general election" are not the same thing. Ahem.
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Feb 21, 2017 01:03
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Here's that 'upward trend' as you can see Corbyn was clearly doing well bumbling along several points behind the Tories until the referendum and leadership contest happened in April 2016. gently caress off.
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Feb 21, 2017 01:04
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Point of order in that your link states only 48% of labour voters don't want to block brexit.
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Feb 21, 2017 01:07
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serious gaylord posted:How about he fulfilled the will of the members of his party by opposing it then instead of three line whipping its passage in the non existent hope of chasing the leave voting working class thats hosed off to the tories/ukip.
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Feb 21, 2017 01:07
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Is that people who did vote labour or people who intend to vote labour? Seaside Loafer posted:Fucks sake there is no parallel, it was a loving referendum, however loving stupid and mislead the whole thing is, as a democrat he had no choice but to support the motion end of So you're saying you'd expect Corbyn to support anything voted for by a referendum?
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Feb 21, 2017 01:07
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Kinda depressing how much of a mirror that UKIP/Conservative line is.
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Feb 21, 2017 01:11
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serious gaylord posted:Point of order in that your link states only 48% of labour voters don't want to block brexit. 48% versus 39%. That's a comfortable plurality to work off.
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Feb 21, 2017 01:12
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Given Blue Labour's response to everything has been to embrace more UKIP style politics I highly doubt anyone leading Labour would oppose the result of the referendum. Even Tony Blair would probably realise the way the wind was blowing and not go against it if he was leading the party rather than trying to rehabilitate himself in the eyes of anyone who doesn't think war crimes are a big deal.
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Feb 21, 2017 01:15
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Fans posted:Kinda depressing how much of a mirror that UKIP/Conservative line is. And Labour/Lib Dems
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Feb 21, 2017 01:16
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Darth Walrus's article posted:48 per cent of the party’s voters now say the Opposition shouldn’t try and overturn the referendum result. So, Corbyn acting to fulfil the will of his party on Brexit. It's a poo poo situation, but he's following what both the public and Labour voters want. Incidentally, I'm not sure what motivates someone to post in favour of the tories. Maybe if you're part of the privileged few who their destructive policies favour - those who can afford private healthcare, education and security guards to keep the poor away - then I can see it maybe through sheer selfishness? For the vast majority of people, however, I can't get my head around the mindset where you look at the tories and think "That's the party for me - the one that'll destroy the NHS and public education in order to funnel tax money to those who donate to their party, the one that caused Brexit, the one that's sucking up to Trump, the one responsible for the demonisation of the victims of Hillsborough, the one that's courting the far right - they represent me perfectly! Better attack their political rivals so they can destroy my rights more swiftly!"
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Feb 21, 2017 01:16
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Pissflaps posted:So you're saying you'd expect Corbyn to support anything voted for by a referendum? Assuming he voted to put the issue to the public with a referendum in the first place, then yes.
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Feb 21, 2017 01:17
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Gort posted:Incidentally, I'm not sure what motivates someone to post in favour of the tories. Maybe if you're part of the privileged few who their destructive policies favour - those who can afford private healthcare, education and security guards to keep the poor away - then I can see it maybe through sheer selfishness? For the vast majority of people, however, I can't get my head around the mindset where you look at the tories and think "That's the party for me - the one that'll destroy the NHS and public education in order to funnel tax money to those who donate to their party, the one that caused Brexit, the one that's sucking up to Trump, the one responsible for the demonisation of the victims of Hillsborough, the one that's courting the far right - they represent me perfectly! Better attack their political rivals so they can destroy my rights more swiftly!" It's good that no-one here is doing that then.
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Feb 21, 2017 01:20
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jabby posted:Assuming he voted to put the issue to the public with a referendum in the first place, then yes. So he could ignore democratic decisions if he wasn't the one to ask for them in the first place? Interesting.
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Feb 21, 2017 01:21
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serious gaylord posted:It's good that no-one here is doing that then. Somebody's voting for them. They're a corrupt party that exists purely to reinforce privilege for the few at the expense of the many, and they're tearing down the best institutions in the country - their supporters are ill-informed, misled, or just plain vindictive. Gort fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Feb 21, 2017 |
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Feb 21, 2017 01:21
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Gort posted:Somebody's voting for them. Did you mean to say 'vote' rather than 'post'?
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Feb 21, 2017 01:22
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serious gaylord posted:It's good that no-one here is doing that then. Well, we do get the occasional kapparomeo poo poo-and-run.
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Feb 21, 2017 01:24
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Plenty of people in this thread voted Lib Dem.
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Feb 21, 2017 01:25
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serious gaylord posted:And Labour/Lib Dems Even more depressing Tories + UKIP have more than half of the electorate in absolute numbers. That's going to be really really hard to break. e: I suppose in theory it could split 25/25 uniformly distributed and let labour in eventually, but somehow that doesn't seem very likely. While technically UKIP may never have won a proper election they still are a sizable group of voters who support the current Tory policies at the very least. Private Speech fucked around with this message at 01:45 on Feb 21, 2017 |
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Feb 21, 2017 01:26
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serious gaylord posted:Not quite. Labour have consistently polled around 30-35% for general election preference since mid 2015. The narrowing of the gap in the run up the referendum shows a drop in the tories and a big swing to UKIP while labours numbers remained fairly steady. Then Brexit happened, UKIP no longer had a purpose and they all flocked back to the conservatives. I'm not talking about the Tories, I'm talking about Labour's raw numbers. I can pop out some graphs when I'm at a computer but e.g. 
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Feb 21, 2017 01:50
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Pissflaps posted:Here's that 'upward trend' Haha yeah keep moving those goalposts pissflaps
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Feb 21, 2017 01:51
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Seaside Loafer posted:Fucks sake there is no parallel, it was a loving referendum, however loving stupid and mislead the whole thing is, as a democrat he had no choice but to support the motion end of, how many times do we have to go over it As a democrat he had the options of calling for a second referendum because the situation has changed... and also asking his MPs to vote according to their constituents' wishes and not whip. If this isn't lead-up to him resigning and making way for a better leader, he's deluded, and this is as someone who quite likes socialism and jam alike.
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Feb 21, 2017 03:28
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endlessmonotony posted:As a democrat he had the options of calling for a second referendum because the situation has changed... and also asking his MPs to vote according to their constituents' wishes and not whip. If this isn't lead-up to him resigning and making way for a better leader, he's deluded, and this is as someone who quite likes socialism and jam alike. 'Voting according to their constituents' wishes' would have resulted in him voting No while 70% of his MPs were forced to vote Yes, likely against their own wishes. So, the same outcome but even messier - this way at least gave it all a bit of direction and solidarity.
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Feb 21, 2017 03:33
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If you think Labour is demonstrating solidarity and direction....
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Feb 21, 2017 03:35
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Fangz posted:If you think Labour is demonstrating solidarity and direction.... Compared to the apocalyptic catastrofuck of a 'vote how your constituencies did' order? Yeah. This way, Labour actually has a concrete policy on Brexit that the leadership and the vast majority of MPs are on record as supporting, rather than the leadership voting one way and the majority of their MPs being asked to vote the other way.
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Feb 21, 2017 03:43
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They are on record for helping to push the hardest of Brexit through parliament with a loving whip. It will only work against Labour when they try to capitalize on the post-Brexit mess. But hey, not even half the electorate voted for some Brexit, so hard Brexit is obviously correct on the democratic principle 
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Feb 21, 2017 05:40
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Junkozeyne posted:They are on record for helping to push the hardest of Brexit through parliament with a loving whip. It will only work against Labour when they try to capitalize on the post-Brexit mess. But hey, not even half the electorate voted for some Brexit, so hard Brexit is obviously correct on the democratic principle We've been over this before, but Labour would have been savaged in the press for "defying the democratic process" if they hadn't whipped for Article 50. And they would have been savaged every time they spoke out against an aspect of negotiation or new trade deal. And they would have been savaged by UKIP and Tory candidates in every by-election for the next 10 years. And the vote to invoke Article 50 would still have passed. And sure, not even half the electorate voted for Brexit, but the 28% of people who didn't vote don't count, that's how a referendum works.
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Feb 21, 2017 07:36
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Apple auto-correct is fighting me over Corbyn
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Feb 21, 2017 07:59
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baka kaba posted:Haha yeah keep moving those goalposts pissflaps You've just posted a chart showing labour polling since 2010 in response to a post abut polling since 2015.
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Feb 21, 2017 08:03
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^^^I know it's early but come on. Close your left eye or something dratendlessmonotony posted:As a democrat he had the options of calling for a second referendum because the situation has changed... and also asking his MPs to vote according to their constituents' wishes and not whip. If this isn't lead-up to him resigning and making way for a better leader, he's deluded, and this is as someone who quite likes socialism and jam alike. He can call for a second referendum later, when the situation actually has changed. Like what exactly do you think has happened yet? Absolutely nothing. Everything about brexit is completely nebulous and promises everything to everyone. There's nothing to fight, no specifics to build a case against. We already had the general 'things will be bad' argument and how well did that go? The only thing that's changed since the referendum is that a larger majority now support going ahead with some form of brexit - not exactly fertile ground for a second referendum to save us all. Until the terrible, terrible details of what's actually in store begin to emerge from these negotiations, there's not really much anyone can do baka kaba fucked around with this message at 08:18 on Feb 21, 2017 |
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Feb 21, 2017 08:15
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Pissflaps posted:So he could ignore democratic decisions if he wasn't the one to ask for them in the first place? Interesting. Don't be loving stupid, you know what they mean.
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Feb 21, 2017 08:16
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Dead Goon posted:Don't be loving stupid, you know what they mean. Yes I know what they mean. They're tailoring scenarios demonstrating 'principle' to match up with what Corbyn happened to do. baka kaba posted:^^^I know it's early but come on. Close your left eye or something drat I'd rather use both eyes to see the chart of polling data since 2015 which I posted earlier. Looking forward to your charts that show baka kaba posted:Labour's polling was actually trending upwards for once until something happened in June last year, this though. Pissflaps fucked around with this message at 08:25 on Feb 21, 2017 |
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Feb 21, 2017 08:20
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We will know how hosed they are on thursday when the Copeland byelection happens. It's looking like a 80 year old labour safe seat is about to go Tory and I would expect that's going to be the trigger for any leadership challenges, which makes all this arguing over poles and Corbyn in the general election a bit pointless.
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Feb 21, 2017 08:39
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I still don't think labour will lose either by-election but even if it were to happen, and there was to be a leadership challenge, I don't think it could happen until the same time of the year as the last one, and Corbyn's supporters will still vote for him anyway because the parliamentary fortunes of the Labour Party are a secondary concern.
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Feb 21, 2017 08:49
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You literally want Labour to lose the next election so you can rub Corbyn's nose in it like a naughty puppy
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Feb 21, 2017 08:59
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