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Bel_Canto posted:this. apologetics is not theology. also c. s. lewis is not a theologian nor a particularly good apologist. his best works are imaginative rather than argumentative: The Great Divorce, The Screwtape Letters, and Till We Have Faces are all excellent, Mere Christianity not so much. Wikipedia describes him as a lay theologian, and I've felt edified by the same works that you've mentioned so I'm willing to give him the title as well. The presence of an imaginative element does nothing to dissuade me from applying that label. I think it may have been Met. Kallistos Ware who said something to the effect that a theologian is someone who prays sincerely and well, and someone who prays sincerely and well is a theologian. Just a paraphrase, to be sure.
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Feb 20, 2017 23:42
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CountFosco posted:Wikipedia describes him as a lay theologian, and I've felt edified by the same works that you've mentioned so I'm willing to give him the title as well. The presence of an imaginative element does nothing to dissuade me from applying that label. I think it may have been Met. Kallistos Ware who said something to the effect that a theologian is someone who prays sincerely and well, and someone who prays sincerely and well is a theologian. Just a paraphrase, to be sure. I think you at least need some sort of degree to claim that you are a "lay theologian" otherwise all of us here qualify. Also, I wouldn't rely on wiki in a situation where you are having a discussion with someone with a degree in the subject.
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Feb 20, 2017 23:46
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Josef bugman posted:I know. I wish there was an easily accessible universal moral code. At least then it's just be the practical matter of how to apply it, rather than the "what is it in the first place" thing that I am poo poo at. I know it's purely selfish to think of things in this way, but it always feels like I have nowhere concrete to stand and make decisions from. allow me to introduce you to a man called marx
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Feb 20, 2017 23:46
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Any belief system that has an ethical component, whether it is centred around religious or political convictions, or largely removed from either, is inherently at odds with how the world is on account of being an ideal that is worth striving towards and not merely descriptive of how the world is, I think.Tias posted:If you could spare some, I'm in need of prayers. My depression and anxiety is coming back something fierce, the city refuses my disability claims, and I'm really worried for my future, which in turn is becoming a kind of spiritual crisis. It feels like all I can do not to despair completely I'm not sure if it would be useful to you, or if you are already aware of it, but I seem to remember that a few of the Danish thread regulars in the Scandinavian thread has practical experience with disability claims, including, I think, possibly the exact same municipal venue that you may be dealing with. It might be a possible venue of support.
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Feb 20, 2017 23:48
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Josef bugman posted:I think you at least need some sort of degree to claim that you are a "lay theologian" otherwise all of us here qualify. two, actually really needed to qualify for the nothing i've done so far
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Feb 20, 2017 23:51
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Senju Kannon posted:two, actually Oh dear! Sorry about me being a tit and not mentioning that.
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Feb 20, 2017 23:53
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Senju Kannon posted:allow me to introduce you to a man called marx tfw u wanted a universal moral code and got an immortal dialectical science
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Feb 21, 2017 00:09
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Josef bugman posted:I think you at least need some sort of degree to claim that you are a "lay theologian" otherwise all of us here qualify. Excuse me, have you heard of the #Reformation? Get your bourgeois expertise out of my church. 
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Feb 21, 2017 00:11
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Josef bugman posted:I know. I wish there was an easily accessible universal moral code. At least then it's just be the practical matter of how to apply it, rather than the "what is it in the first place" thing that I am poo poo at. I know it's purely selfish to think of things in this way, but it always feels like I have nowhere concrete to stand and make decisions from. Pick one and run with it. I like utilitarianism myself. Don't recommend going with the weird Bentham school of it though, he strikes me as some kind of weird sex pest trying to justify his weirdness. Or if none of them suit you you can make up your own, I figure that's what most of the people who now have a school of ethics named after them did. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 01:42 on Feb 21, 2017 |
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Feb 21, 2017 01:40
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Josef bugman posted:I think you at least need some sort of degree to claim that you are a "lay theologian" otherwise all of us here qualify. I for one am not willing to exclude the autodidacts from being given a certain title. If you really insist on maintaining a division, feel free to say, "ahem, I believe you mean amateur lay theologian."
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Feb 21, 2017 03:05
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CountFosco posted:I for one am not willing to exclude the autodidacts from being given a certain title. If you really insist on maintaining a division, feel free to say, "ahem, I believe you mean amateur lay theologian." you remind me of a guy i met in seminary who was really annoyed about having to take all these academic classes and read people who talk about all kinds of academic things about religion when really all you need to do is love god and all that nonsense he was in a phd program for biblical languages jesus wept
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Feb 21, 2017 03:18
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somewhere, bel_canto wakes up in a cold sweat, and reaches for his gun
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Feb 21, 2017 03:39
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Senju Kannon posted:you remind me of a guy i met in seminary who was really annoyed about having to take all these academic classes and read people who talk about all kinds of academic things about religion when really all you need to do is love god and all that nonsense This would be one of the reasons why I never took any religion classes in college.
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Feb 21, 2017 04:03
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Cythereal posted:This would be one of the reasons why I never took any religion classes in college. be...cause you... don't want to be around people like that or... are... people like that?
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Feb 21, 2017 04:17
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Senju Kannon posted:be...cause you... don't want to be around people like that or... are... people like that? The former. While I sympathize with that person's point, if you're in a program like that then you should know what you're in for and as such I feel the anti-intellectual approach to theology is woefully misplaced. Got enough of that kind of thing in the history program, people who seemingly want to study history but object to the entire principle of the course or want to demonstrate how much more enlightened they are. The really bad ones were the Holocaust deniers and Armenian Genocide deniers during my History of Genocide class. That was a fun semester.
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Feb 21, 2017 04:26
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Cythereal posted:The former. While I sympathize with that person's point, if you're in a program like that then you should know what you're in for and as such I feel the anti-intellectual approach to theology is woefully misplaced. Got enough of that kind of thing in the history program, people who seemingly want to study history but object to the entire principle of the course or want to demonstrate how much more enlightened they are. The really bad ones were the Holocaust deniers and Armenian Genocide deniers during my History of Genocide class. That was a fun semester. I mean I am no fan of Academic circle jerks (looking at you "introduction to historiography class and the pissing French revolution") but there does need to be a base line of both knowledge and expertise if you are going to approach something this massive.
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Feb 21, 2017 08:06
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Josef bugman posted:"introduction to historiography class and the pissing French revolution"
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Feb 21, 2017 08:16
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HEY GAIL posted:my favorite is the guy who said it was because of a bunch of overeducated underemployed writers who had no way to rise socially so they all lived in paris writing angry porno That was my course too! I have never been more irritated with a subject matter than someone saying "well it's because of either pamphlets or books!" The utter minutiae is not what you want in your first year at uni when you are trying to make sense of what you have in front of you.
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Feb 21, 2017 08:40
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Josef bugman posted:That was my course too! I have never been more irritated with a subject matter than someone saying "well it's because of either pamphlets or books!"
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Feb 21, 2017 08:41
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HEY GAIL posted:no dude, what i am sayin is i disagree with you, historiography classes are fascinating Oh, sorry. I just found that really, not dull neccesarily but the fact that it all felt so small. I like learning the facts first and then going into the minutiae if you need to. Otherwise it's just feels like arguing about nothing.
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Feb 21, 2017 08:43
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Josef bugman posted:Oh, sorry. I just found that really, not dull neccesarily but the fact that it all felt so small. I like learning the facts first and then going into the minutiae if you need to. Otherwise it's just feels like arguing about nothing.
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Feb 21, 2017 08:46
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HEY GAIL posted:once you know the facts, how they were interpreted, how they were told to you--even which facts the various people explaining them focus on--becomes a thing See the first introduction to the revolution was "read the Darnton debate". That was it. I liked the other bit if we ever got round to it. But then I didn't really have a very good time at Uni in general, maybe it might be that that's colouring it a bit.
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Feb 21, 2017 08:49
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Josef bugman posted:See the first introduction to the revolution was "read the Darnton debate". HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 08:55 on Feb 21, 2017 |
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Feb 21, 2017 08:52
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HEY GAIL posted:once you know the facts, how they were interpreted, how they were told to you--even which facts the various people explaining them focus on--becomes a thing That does eventually turn into circular historiography though, like what happened to anthropology: Step one, write about those exotic peoples you just learned about and ponder how best to civilize them. Step two, write about how those primitive peoples are actually better and more pure than your own decadent selves. Also possibly closer to the ancient natural matriarchy, why not. Step three, write about how attitudes one and two are actually tools of the colonialist oppressor and need to be denounced. Step four, write about the development of postcolonial anthropology, possibly criticise that if you feel like being controversial. Definitely namedrop done Derrida. Increasingly pat your colleagues on the back and increasingly waste my precious tax dollars. Don't actually talk to anybody in those other cultures you write about, because who cares about that.
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Feb 21, 2017 08:55
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in the 1400s, armies were one way. in the 1700s, they were different. something happened in the middle, but what? and when
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Feb 21, 2017 08:57
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I like all historiography because it is sure to give me interesting insights, either into the topic it is presenting or indirectly into what the author believed it wanted others to believe. Like when you go back far enough in the purported ancestry of Queen Elizabeth you end up with mythical giants from Norse legend, that's really cool. The only historiography I don't like is stuff like the article I read the other day about the perception of dialects in early modern France: way too verbose and complicated in its writing and when you finally decipher it it's 90% filler bullshit you've just wasted your time with 
System Metternich fucked around with this message at 09:56 on Feb 21, 2017 |
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Feb 21, 2017 09:21
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Senju Kannon posted:I'm implying Scott Hahn is read a lot but Scott Hahn is poo poo and the people who read him are probably poo poo Whatever they do to you in Calvinist seminaries must scramble your brains pretty good. Hahn converted and brought the typical Reformed obsession with covenants with him. Seeing the sacraments as covenants isn't wrong, per se, but it really strikes me as something that a cradle Catholic or someone who went to a Catholic seminary wouldn't really say. I think that it would've been fine if he had stayed as "the guy who writes about Catholicism from a Protestant convert's point of view" but nope, he broke out of that niche and now he's all over Catholic Men's circles and is even doing the Ignatius Study Bible now. He's everywhere. Letting people who go to Protestant seminaries write material for Catholics/Orthodox seems like it always ends up weird because they bring that unique brand of legalism into everything they touch. Look at the Orthodox Study Bible for an example; it's blindingly obvious to me that the study notes were written by converts, because people who were raised Eastern Orthodox don't use that kind of language. One of the essays basically has an altar call in it!
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Feb 21, 2017 11:33
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Tias posted:If you could spare some, I'm in need of prayers. My depression and anxiety is coming back something fierce, the city refuses my disability claims, and I'm really worried for my future, which in turn is becoming a kind of spiritual crisis. It feels like all I can do not to despair completely Peace be with you, Brother Tias. I wish there was more I could do to speed you past the moments of worry and despair, but if it helps you to know that others pray for you somewhere in this wide world, then you can know I'm praying for you.
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Feb 21, 2017 11:50
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The Phlegmatist posted:...he broke out of that niche and now he's all over Catholic Men's circles and is even doing the Ignatius Study Bible now. He's everywhere. So you're saying they also bring an idolatrous obsession with the Bible, too?
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Feb 21, 2017 17:03
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WerrWaaa posted:So you're saying they also bring an idolatrous obsession with the Bible, too? Sometimes they do. There's definitely an obsession with proving that Catholic/Orthodox doctrines are biblically-based, and I can't speak for the Orthodox, but most Catholics don't generally think in those terms. It's very uncommon in Catholic circles to hear the Bible described as "the word of God," whereas that's very common among Protestants. Even in the Roman liturgy, when the reader closes the OT or epistle with "The word of the Lord" it's understood to refer to the oral utterance rather than the written text.
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Feb 21, 2017 17:34
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I was just flipping through an old compilation of Greek mythology, and the preface starts with, "the people of ancient Greece created these stories to explain the natural world around them. Unlike the Hebrews, they lacked access to a perfectly accurate account of the world's creation."
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Feb 21, 2017 18:36
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WerrWaaa posted:So you're saying they also bring an idolatrous obsession with the Bible, too? Eh, that is sorta the point of the Didache Bible, which is a study Bible that basically points out where statements in in the Catechism reflect the Biblical text. Plus there are apologetic inserts that essentially provide scriptural defenses for Catholic teachings; sometimes they are kinda tenuous. Purgatory is really hard to proof-text from scripture, and don't I think intercession of the saints is actually possible to get out of scripture. I wouldn't say they engage in Bibliolatry very often though, not in the same way that Baptists do (The Word of God is the Bible! The Word of God is Jesus! The Bible is Jesus! is definitely a thing in evangelical circles if you poke around enough.) e: of course, I have also seen some Catholics engage in a similar level of fundamentalism, but I can only assume that's just influence from evangelical Protestants. Vatican II said historical and literary criticism of scripture was totally fine. The Phlegmatist fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Feb 21, 2017 |
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Feb 21, 2017 18:40
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P-Mack posted:I was just flipping through an old compilation of Greek mythology, and the preface starts with, "the people of ancient Greece created these stories to explain the natural world around them. Unlike the Hebrews, they lacked access to a perfectly accurate account of the world's creation." How old is the book? Because that is either really deep sarcasm or just standard for the time period.
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Feb 21, 2017 19:07
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P-Mack posted:I was just flipping through an old compilation of Greek mythology, and the preface starts with, "the people of ancient Greece created these stories to explain the natural world around them. Unlike the Hebrews, they lacked access to a perfectly accurate account of the world's creation." I had that book as a kid. I got to that part, laughed my rear end off, and went back to my Edith Hamilton's Mythology. Josef bugman posted:How old is the book? Because that is either really deep sarcasm or just standard for the time period. Neither, unless it's not the one I'm thinking of.
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Feb 21, 2017 19:18
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I e-mailed my deacon a blog post about Reasons Millennials Don't Go to Church or Something Like That. I got the snarkiest, annotated response back. It was fun. In essence, the argument went that the Church is catering to older generations, not listening to the young, and not engaging important social causes. My deacon was irritated at the selfishness of the blogger and lashed back with something like, "Well no poo poo, I said the same stuff in the 70s. The church isn't for you. You aren't more important than the older members of the congregation. You want the church to change? Show up an participate. 95% of your problems stem from right-leaning megachurches, anyway. STFU and GTFO." I enjoyed her response and think, for the most part, she isn't wrong. BUT our church is still small, and it is kinda boring. So what do we do? We've mentioned in this thread (maybe the last one?) the very serious impact of changing social and geographic dynamics-- no one is expected to go to church anymore, so they don't. This of course dovetails with the conversation a day or two ago about physical spaces and the necessity of church for discipleship. So I wonder, is there a way to communicate to people that the church is here, serious, progressive, and is the best place to give shape to your spiritual impulses? Doors closing all over the country makes me sad. 
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Feb 21, 2017 22:22
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Stop pissing on LGBT people, don't shelter pedos, maybe a monthly pancake breakfast? I dunno.
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Feb 21, 2017 22:49
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WerrWaaa posted:BUT our church is still small, and it is kinda boring. So what do we do? We've mentioned in this thread (maybe the last one?) the very serious impact of changing social and geographic dynamics-- no one is expected to go to church anymore, so they don't. This of course dovetails with the conversation a day or two ago about physical spaces and the necessity of church for discipleship. So I wonder, is there a way to communicate to people that the church is here, serious, progressive, and is the best place to give shape to your spiritual impulses? Doors closing all over the country makes me sad. As Senju Kannon pointed out. If you don't want me here, why should I show up to tell you that you should? Plus, I am not sure if most people have spiritual impulses. Even in Church, a lot of it simply seems to be based on "will I see the people I know there" and "Society expects me to give up my time for this". The latter is why a lot of churches are closing, people don't want to be sermonised to. Most people never have, but this particular time period is even less into it than others.
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Feb 21, 2017 22:55
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most people are actually spiritual, they believe in some higher power, pray, and try to live decent lives. they're just not as religious anymore. don't mistake a lack of participation in rituals for a lack of belief
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Feb 21, 2017 23:08
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Well in the 70s, mainline Protestant churches weren't literally facing the prospect of dying out in 20 years. Outreach to the younger generation really needs to be the first priority for a lot of churches. If the average age of your congregation is 60+ what the heck do you think is going to happen to your church in thirty years? That said, Millenials seem to either flock to super low-church rock concert style worship services like in megachurches or go really traditional. The average age at the Latin Mass in our parish seems like it's around 28. They're not crazy rad trads either, they just enjoy doing something different with a long history behind it. I don't know what mainline Protestant churches can really do here, since they constantly seem like they're stuck in this middle-church mode that doesn't really excite anyone. Boring sermons will Protestant churches faster than anything, since that's pretty much the focal point of the service for a lot of them. Sermons should be challenging but also offer hope that you can meet the challenge with God's help. I do not want to hear personal anecdotes from the pator's life, because I am not a pastor and I can't relate to what you''re talking about. I don't want to hear sports analogies either. I think they must train pastors in both of those things during seminary because they're just constant. Small actionable things that your congregation can actually do are good to. Last Sunday's reading was a difficult one, but the homily urged us to actively pray for our enemies so that we can receive the grace to forgive them. I think it's like the 30 day challenge or something? Pray for someone who has hurt you for 30 days and you'll begin to feel pity rather than anger. That's a good example of how you can give a congregation an actionable thing that they can do that relates to the Gospel message and helps enrich them spiritually. Volunteer opportunities. This is a nasty death spiral for smaller, aging churches because the types of volunteering that millenials are interested in are different from what retirees are interested in. No I don't want to help the thrift store, I'd rather go pass out meals to the homeless or something. Smaller churches also have less resources available for these, but one good side-effect of mainline Protestant churches becoming smaller is that there are more para-church ministries available for volunteering. Volunteering also gives millenials something to talk about when they're talking about church, because it represents a concrete example of what the church is doing in the community, which allows millenials to easily deflect accusations of "well yeah you sit in church every Sunday but what are you doing?" Service times. Also tends to be harder for smaller churches to pull off since they don't have enough congregants to make it worth it, but a lot of younger people are working on Sundays now. That makes it hard to attend church on a regular basis. My last church had its Bible study at 10 AM on a Wednesday. Like, great, I know most of the congregation is retired and all but I'll never be able to attend because I'm working. Having more opportunities for small group study outside of Sunday is definitely important for helping millenials feel more connected to the church community, and a lot of churches are neglecting that. Someone seriously needs to set up a para-church singles ministry. I have literally never seen this. When millenials *do* wander back into church it's usually because they're raising kids and want to give them a religious upbringing. Actually facilitating Christian couples seems like it would be such a great asset in actually retaining younger members.
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Feb 21, 2017 23:09
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WerrWaaa posted:I e-mailed my deacon a blog post about Reasons Millennials Don't Go to Church or Something Like That. I got the snarkiest, annotated response back. It was fun. In essence, the argument went that the Church is catering to older generations, not listening to the young, and not engaging important social causes. My deacon was irritated at the selfishness of the blogger and lashed back with something like, "Well no poo poo, I said the same stuff in the 70s. The church isn't for you. You aren't more important than the older members of the congregation. You want the church to change? Show up an participate. 95% of your problems stem from right-leaning megachurches, anyway. STFU and GTFO." I enjoyed her response and think, for the most part, she isn't wrong. BUT our church is still small, and it is kinda boring. So what do we do? We've mentioned in this thread (maybe the last one?) the very serious impact of changing social and geographic dynamics-- no one is expected to go to church anymore, so they don't. This of course dovetails with the conversation a day or two ago about physical spaces and the necessity of church for discipleship. So I wonder, is there a way to communicate to people that the church is here, serious, progressive, and is the best place to give shape to your spiritual impulses? Doors closing all over the country makes me sad. P-Mack posted:Stop pissing on LGBT people, don't shelter pedos, maybe a monthly pancake breakfast? I dunno. More social events, especially catered to young adults and kids. Similarly, get the church more involved in local events, organizations, and outreach programs. Churches can't be insular and expect people to come to them, I think you have to actively reach out and make your presence felt in the community and people will come to you. You're right, younger people don't feel obligated to attend church and I think most non-religious types don't think about the community, social, and service aspects of it. Do I want to sit through a liturgy and eat coffee and donuts with old people? Ehhhh. Do I want to participate in after school programs for kids, feeding the homeless, outreach to LGBTQ youth in schools or something? Yeah that sounds more appealing. I think the message can't be "come to Church" but rather something like "come participate in the Church community like you see the Church doing in the broader community." Like, get a group together with signs "ANGLICANS WELCOME ALL!" or whatever and go to your next Pride parade. Get your name out there. Social media might help but I don't think it's going to draw many people who wouldn't otherwise be interested. Edit: I don't think trying to cater directly to millenials by having Jesus rock "contemporary" services is the right approach, either. You still have the problem that you're just asking people to come to Church, only with different music, and music that's heavily associated with Evangelical Christianity and all the baggage that entails. A major problem is that young people associate being religious in America with right-wing politics, and millenials are far more progressive than older generations so that's toxic. That's basically why I was non-religious, I'd describe myself as deist even, for several years. In college, the only church services that had any significant youth attendance were of various Evangelical and Charismatic flavors. I'm not really a fan of their services but moreso I was turned off by the associated politics. Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Feb 21, 2017 |
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Feb 21, 2017 23:09
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