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emdash posted:why would there have been a lot of those in 2016 you doofus Because the narrative is that establishment democrats can't motivate any voters with spineless centrism, but pure progressives like Bernie would be able to motivate these voters and therefore win more elections. But the progressives that earned the Bernie seal of approval didn't actually outperform establishment democrats (Clinton) anywhere, so the narrative is dubious at best.
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Feb 21, 2017 23:09
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snyprmag posted:And it that's all it took for it to not work then it never loving will. Except these things have consequences. So while people are hamstringing about purity and not wanting support a lesser evil candidate: families are being broken up, people are dying, etc. I also hate using that, because for many people, Hillary Clinton was their candidate. It wasn't about lesser evil for them. If I would have had to vote for Bernie Sanders, it would have been supporting the "lesser evil"
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Feb 21, 2017 23:13
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blackguy32 posted:Except these things have consequences. So while people are hamstringing about purity and not wanting support a lesser evil candidate: families are being broken up, people are dying, etc. My point it more that we need to find out why people aren't voting, not just shaming them.
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Feb 21, 2017 23:18
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Yeah, find out. Not just tell them "the reason you aren't voting is insufficient purity in Dems, and cause of Joe Manchin and Corey Booker".
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Feb 21, 2017 23:22
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Fulchrum posted:Protecting gay marriage, trans equality, abortion rights, opposing police brutality. The things that won the North Carolina governorship. Gay Marriage is settled unless of course you mean putting bakers out of business is protecting it. Trans rights. Yeah considering that it doesn't actually bring the votes out I don't see how it helps. Opposing police brutality? How can that not be coupled with people having better economic standards so they don't live in decaying urban or suburban wastelands? (I know the answer you don't want your taxes to go up). Abortion rights? Maybe. Didn't win the Dems Texas. Actually lost them votes in 2014. I mean when the GOP runs guys who start question rape you can win on it. But when they just talk about how they love life. It becomes a hard sell. Here is the thing though. Politics is about people having their interests catered to. How do you ensure this cover 51% of the population that you need to win an election>DOes this actually cover the interests and needs of 51% of the population. If it doesn't you'll lose. Now on the other hand alot of the population needs more pay. ALot of the population needs more healthcare. Why not aso cater to them, rather then do as you call for and ignore their plight? To the question itself. Tammy Baldwin and Maggie Hansan were both endorsed by Sanders and won their elections. Sorry you hate Sanders so much. Also I'll tell you what makes a true leftist dem. Someone who doesn't instinctive attack any one who wants better rights for workers, or better access to healthcare. Also Maybe if your sainted Corey wants to keep his seat he'll show concerns for anyone outside of Wall Street and the pharmacutical industry.
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Feb 21, 2017 23:23
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snyprmag posted:Deportations, arrests, police brutality and war happened under democratic governance. Democrats keep running on those issues and then not fixing them and then wonder why people don't show up to vote for them. Aw boo hoo, you didn't get everything you wanted. No one ever gets everything they wanted. That doesn't mean you take your ball and go home. You support the person who gives you most of what you want and then keep pressuring them? Do you think the LGBT groups abandoned Obama en masse because when he ran in 2008 he wasn't in favor of gay marriage? No. They kept the pressure up and then hey guess what, the dude endorsed gay marriage. If these issues are so drat precious to you then run yourself or get active in your party or write letters or do something. Unironically engaging in No True Scotsman contests doesn't help anyone, except it does help you feel smugly superior...so congrats on that I guess?
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Feb 21, 2017 23:25
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So that's your way of saying you aren't a leftist dem? Or is this you sticking like glue to a no true Scotsman, saying that anyone who doesn't run on full communism now isn't really fighting for better worker rights and better healthcare. And BTW, since Perez is probably the number one fighter for worker rights in America today and you keep instinctively fighting him, you wanna walk the hypocrisy back? And trans rights did motivate people to the polls. North. Carolina. Governorship. The whole thing was a proxy on HB2.
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Feb 21, 2017 23:30
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axeil posted:Aw boo hoo, you didn't get everything you wanted. No one ever gets everything they wanted. That doesn't mean you take your ball and go home. You support the person who gives you most of what you want and then keep pressuring them? Do you think the LGBT groups abandoned Obama en masse because when he ran in 2008 he wasn't in favor of gay marriage? No. They kept the pressure up and then hey guess what, the dude endorsed gay marriage. Well I am intending to keep the pressure up. I am also intending to if necesery primary blue state dems that do not show any love of the people being hurt and let Trump and the GOP further wreck this country. Of course some people here like to claim that that makes me the equivalent of Hitler. Because apparently making sure dems actually stand for something, actually ensure that people don't get hurt ensures people actually get hurt. Fulchrum posted:So that's your way of saying you aren't a leftist dem? Or is this you sticking like glue to a no true Scotsman, saying that anyone who doesn't run on full communism now isn't really fighting for better worker rights and better healthcare. Because Elision has a better record at organizing people in getting out the vote? ALso are you sure the fact that the previous governor had screwed up a environmental crisis where he gave metaphorical head to duke energy didn't have anything to do with his defeat? Further on the issue of workers rights why do you not consider them worthy of campaigning on? I mean as I just pointed out Abortion can be argued against Trans rights can be argued against. if they were not then that election wouldn't have been so close. Why not campaign on people not having drinking water? Why not campaign on what effects everyone. People want their needs met. That's the number one thing that motivates them. WHy do you think that is the worst thing in the world? I mean if it really is that you don't want your taxes going up, or your prices at whole foods. just say so. Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Feb 21, 2017 |
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Feb 21, 2017 23:31
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axeil posted:Aw boo hoo, you didn't get everything you wanted. No one ever gets everything they wanted. That doesn't mean you take your ball and go home. You support the person who gives you most of what you want and then keep pressuring them? Do you think the LGBT groups abandoned Obama en masse because when he ran in 2008 he wasn't in favor of gay marriage? No. They kept the pressure up and then hey guess what, the dude endorsed gay marriage.
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Feb 21, 2017 23:32
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axeil posted:Aw boo hoo, you didn't get everything you wanted. No one ever gets everything they wanted. That doesn't mean you take your ball and go home. I mean, when the news runs stories about someone setting up black sites using the local police, I have a lot of trouble seeing that guy as the lesser evil, even if his opponent is really, really evil.
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Feb 21, 2017 23:33
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snyprmag posted:Deportations, arrests, police brutality and war happened under democratic governance. Democrats keep running on those issues and then not fixing them and then wonder why people don't show up to vote for them. Ok, I guess that is a simple answer for a complex problem. But the alternative of that was basically more of those things. But I think there are plenty of reasons that people aren't voting, and while not being left leaning enough is one of them, I think it is far from the only one, especially in a country that is known for making it extremely difficult for certain groups to vote. Crowsbeak posted:Gay Marriage is settled unless of course you mean putting bakers out of business is protecting it. Abortion is health care. More pay doesn't matter if you are trangender and can't get hired or dead. But I fail to see how economic issues were not catered to this past election.
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Feb 21, 2017 23:34
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Also, Tammy Baldwin was a loving Incumbent and Maggie Hansan is a beloved ex governor who won by less than a percentage point. How in the gently caress does either represent either the supressed left that the Establishment has opposed, or this unstoppable wave of support for pure leftists?
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Feb 21, 2017 23:36
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Fulchrum posted:Also, Tammy Baldwin was a loving Incumbent and Maggie Hansan is a beloved ex governor who won by less than a percentage point. How in the gently caress does either represent either the supressed left that the Establishment has opposed, or this unstoppable wave of support for pure leftists? YOu asked for endorsements and I gave you them. Sorry you can't stand Sanders helping dems get elected (I actually meant Duckworth). It seems like you're the one who has a purity regime going on. @ BLackguy. Yes Trump did play to peoples economic issues. Albeit he lied about it. But he at least campaigned on the hurting that people of all skin tones in the center of the country have felt. And before you go "WELL HER PLATFORM AND WEBSITE". No one besides people on this site read the platform or the website.
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Feb 21, 2017 23:41
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blackguy32 posted:Ok, I guess that is a simple answer for a complex problem. But the alternative of that was basically more of those things. But I think there are plenty of reasons that people aren't voting, and while not being left leaning enough is one of them, I think it is far from the only one, especially in a country that is known for making it extremely difficult for certain groups to vote. I absolutely agree and think better access to voting may be even more important than lefty economic positions. It certainly did a lot more damage to Clinton's electoral chances than anyone of the left. But once the dems can win elections again, they need to create governing institutions and policies that help people and that people like; and governing in a more left fashion is the only way I can see that happening.
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Feb 21, 2017 23:44
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Fulchrum posted:Yeah, find out. Not just tell them "the reason you aren't voting is insufficient purity in Dems, and cause of Joe Manchin and Corey Booker". Well when you want something done its best to have unity in the party. What doesn't help unity is when you have people in safe seats not showing unity. So they must be given the choice to either change. Or leave. Hey can you also explain how putting pressure on a elected representative through grass roots means is bad? Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Feb 21, 2017 |
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Feb 21, 2017 23:47
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Fulchrum posted:Also, Tammy Baldwin was a loving Incumbent and Maggie Hansan is a beloved ex governor who won by less than a percentage point. How in the gently caress does either represent either the supressed left that the Establishment has opposed, or this unstoppable wave of support for pure leftists? And even if we grant that Hassan is a true pure non-establishment progressive, the important question isn't if she won or lost, it's did she outperform Hillary in NH? The margin of victory was very tight in both races, but Hillary's margin was 0.2% larger.
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Feb 21, 2017 23:51
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snyprmag posted:Deportations, arrests, police brutality and war happened under democratic governance. Democrats keep running on those issues and then not fixing them and then wonder why people don't show up to vote for them. With over 40 per cent of voters in my generation describing themselves as independent, our future as a party will depend on reminding people how their lives have been improved by good Democratic policies, and when a voter thinks that isn’t true in her life, we had better listen closely and try to understand why. When it comes to my part of the country, we will recover our ability to reach people only when we take them seriously, connecting our plans to their actual, personal lived experience rather than focusing on The Show. We need to invite individual people to assess how their individual lives changed — how their safety, their income, their access to health care, their gun rights, their marriages — have actually been affected, if at all, by what goes on in Washington. Taking people seriously also means treating the constituency groups that traditionally support Democrats as more than a disconnected patchwork of interests to cater to, served by a great political salad bar of something different for everyone. The various identity groups who have been part of our coalition should be there because we have spoken to their values and their everyday lives — not because we contacted them, one group at a time and just in time for the next election, to remind them of some pet issue that illustrates why we expect them to support us. Laundry lists will not inspire.
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Feb 21, 2017 23:55
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Oh I get it now because she didn't win a large enough margin it means Bernie hurt her. Got to love you purity centrists. Can't let Bernie have helped in anyway. Main Paineframe posted:With over 40 per cent of voters in my generation describing themselves as independent, our future as a party will depend on reminding people how their lives have been improved by good Democratic policies, and when a voter thinks that isn’t true in her life, we had better listen closely and try to understand why. I know me and you, really don't agree on alot. ALso I know I fit a bit outside any group> But this is a great idea. It has to be a message that unites all together.
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Feb 21, 2017 23:58
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Fulchrum posted:Also, Tammy Baldwin was a loving Incumbent and Maggie Hansan is a beloved ex governor who won by less than a percentage point. How in the gently caress does either represent either the supressed left that the Establishment has opposed, or this unstoppable wave of support for pure leftists? Why are you, ostensibly a Democrat, trying so hard to counter the idea that the American people support left wing politics? If you have evidence that America prefers center-right policy, then great but it seems like you're also talking yourself out of a job, so to speak.
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Feb 21, 2017 23:58
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Isn't that a Butt Mayor quote? That name is meant to be said with the most amount of respect btw, I just can't remember how to spell or say his real name. 
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Feb 21, 2017 23:58
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Crowsbeak posted:Well when you want something done its best to have unity in the party. What doesn't help unity is when you have people in safe seats not showing unity. So they must be given the choice to either change. Or leave. Hey can you also explain how putting pressure on a elected representative through grass roots means is bad? Because it's not loving grass roots. Booker, Manchin and Heitkamp all have high approval ratings in their constituency. You want Dems to mount a campaign to depose them against the will of their voters just cause you hate that anyone disagrees with you. And unity means you stop loving attacking people on your side. Honestly, you're almost as bad as Trump "We must come together and have unity, we're going to love each other. Except for anyone who disagrees with me who are the enemy of the American people."
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Feb 22, 2017 00:02
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Party unity means you vote the party line or you get out.
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Feb 22, 2017 00:06
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Crowsbeak posted:Oh I get it now because she didn't win a large enough margin it means Bernie hurt her. Got to love you purity centrists. Can't let Bernie have helped in anyway. She underperformed Hillary. So, if Hillary losing means anything remotely related to her must be purged from the party forever, if Hansan did worse than her, then by your logic that means? Come on, I'm sure you can figure this out.
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Feb 22, 2017 00:06
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Fulchrum posted:Because it's not loving grass roots. Booker, Manchin and Heitkamp all have high approval ratings in their constituency. You want Dems to mount a campaign to depose them against the will of their voters just cause you hate that anyone disagrees with you. Fulchrum posted:She underperformed Hillary. So, if Hillary losing means anything remotely related to her must be purged from the party forever, if Hansan did worse than her, then by your logic that means? Come on, I'm sure you can figure this out. I don't know what it means. You're the once who claims it means Sanders hurt her.
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Feb 22, 2017 00:13
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No I loving didn't you insane blathering rear end in a top hat. I said that being pure leftists is not the instant win condition you seen to be utterly convinced it is.
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Feb 22, 2017 00:16
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Fulchrum posted:No I loving didn't you insane blathering rear end in a top hat. I said that being pure leftists is not the instant win condition you seen to be utterly convinced it is. nobody thinks this
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Feb 22, 2017 00:18
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Crowsbeak posted:Ah so because they have high approvals ratings no one should try to get them to change their vote. Also Booker only has a 51% approval rating. Turns out being a whore for finance and the pharmaceuticals is not good (Or as Trump would say sad. ALso Manchin is at 45%. (BTW I found it rather interesting that the greens in West Virginia got over 40K votes in the last governor race, now I mostly cannot stand that group but for a group that is openly antagonistic to coal to do that well in WV is quite impressive) Please don't talk about WV like you know anything about the politics of it. The Mountain Party ran a former Democratic Governor Nominee, Charlotte Pritt who has relatively high name recognition. There were people who were reluctant to support either Jim Justice (who is even less of a Democrat any Manchin) and weren't going to vote for the odious used-car salesman Republican. Bill Cole. That won't translate to another race and there's literally no one in the state party who could challenge Manchin, end of story.
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Feb 22, 2017 00:20
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Fulchrum posted:No I loving didn't you insane blathering rear end in a top hat. I said that being pure leftists is not the instant win condition you seen to be utterly convinced it is. Why did you make a big deal that she didn't win as much as Hillary did in New Hampshire. BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Please don't talk about WV like you know anything about the politics of it. Was I suggesting it would lead to a challenge to Manchin? No. I was suggesting it suggests the state could be shooken up. If the Mountain party ever does better what will likely happen would be the Democrats become the Democratic Mountain party.
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Feb 22, 2017 00:23
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Crowsbeak posted:I know me and you, really don't agree on alot. ALso I know I fit a bit outside any group> But this is a great idea. It has to be a message that unites all together. Lightning Knight posted:Isn't that a Butt Mayor quote? Yeah, it's a direct Buttigieg quote. I think it's exactly where the party needs to be going...but the last time I posted it, someone got real mad at it because it mentions guns 
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Feb 22, 2017 00:23
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Crowsbeak posted:Was I suggesting it would lead to a challenge to Manchin? No. I was suggesting it suggests the state could be shooken up. If the Mountain party ever does better what will likely happen would be the Democrats become the Democratic Mountain party. It won't.
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Feb 22, 2017 00:24
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Main Paineframe posted:Yeah, it's a direct Buttigieg quote. I think it's exactly where the party needs to be going...but the last time I posted it, someone got real mad at it because it mentions guns Uh oh. Yeah the next ten pages are going to be a even bigger derail now. BI NOW GAY LATER posted:It won't. Why would they not merge with another party to increase their number of voters? WV has some huge problems that are not going away. Are you suggesting the malaise that affects the sate will just get worse and worse with no one ever even trying to adress them? Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Feb 22, 2017 |
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Feb 22, 2017 00:24
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Main Paineframe posted:Yeah, it's a direct Buttigieg quote. I think it's exactly where the party needs to be going...but the last time I posted it, someone got real mad at it because it mentions guns and also think we can reshape our gun policies to both address gun violence and not scare off gun owners.
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Feb 22, 2017 00:28
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Crowsbeak posted:Why would they not merge with another party to increase their number of voters? WV has some huge problems that are not going away. Are you suggesting the malaise that affects the sate will just get worse and worse with no one ever even trying to adress them? I am saying the Mountain Party doesn't exist as a thing and Charlotte Pritt getting 40k votes was an electoral anomaly because of unique set of circumstances in the governor's race.
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Feb 22, 2017 00:30
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snyprmag posted:I also agree with it and hope Buttigieg runs for IN governor in '18. The letter D scares gun owners just as a Pavlovian response thanks to years of NRA conditioning. I would have thought we would have learned that after their response after Obama did absolutely nothing on guns for his first term was " 'BAMA CUMMIN FER ARE GUUUUUUNNNS!!" Crowsbeak posted:Why did you make a big deal that she didn't win as much as Hillary did in New Hampshire.
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Feb 22, 2017 00:35
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Fulchrum posted:
I Never said Hansan was running on my defiinition. ALl I said was that Bernie endorsed her and she won. Also Being that your golden girl lost and couldn't be bothered to visit states she lost in the mid west we have reason to question you guys who keep saying we need to not change anything. @snypermag you did it. Now Fulchrum is going to go on a GUNZ ARE EVUL rant. @bi. Fair enough. However you don't in anyway think that the people who voted for her could never translate into voting for state legislators that could help in moving wv to some more sane policies on say things like preventing companies from poisoning the water supply? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 22, 2017 00:45
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Crowsbeak posted:Oh I get it now because she didn't win a large enough margin it means Bernie hurt her. Got to love you purity centrists. Can't let Bernie have helped in anyway. No that's not the point at all. If centrism is what turned voters off, and pure progressivism is what will motivate them again, you'd expect the progressive candidate to do better than the centrist candidate in a given state or district, but we don't actually see that anywhere. It's not that Bernie hurt her, it's that centrism didn't hurt Clinton, and indeed it may have given her an advantage.
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Feb 22, 2017 00:50
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Crowsbeak posted:@bi. Fair enough. However you don't in anyway think that the people who voted for her could never translate into voting for state legislators that could help in moving wv to some more sane policies on say things like preventing companies from poisoning the water supply? The people who voted for her are already pushing people to do that; the Mountain Party isn't a thing. It's a kind of jokey bunch of Stein-supporters. People voted for Pritt as a protest vote. Justice meanwhile is proposing a whole poo poo load of new taxes and infrastructure spending in stead of further cuts to the state budget. And, for the record, WV had the opportunity in the primary to select a much more left candidate who supported Bernie. He came in a distant third to Justice and a more centrish Establishment Dem. BI NOW GAY LATER fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Feb 22, 2017 |
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Feb 22, 2017 00:52
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Fulchrum posted:The letter D scares gun owners just as a Pavlovian response thanks to years of NRA conditioning. I would have thought we would have learned that after their response after Obama did absolutely nothing on guns for his first term was " 'BAMA CUMMIN FER ARE GUUUUUUNNNS!!" Also it seem like down ticket races will normally under-perform the main show. Minimum wage increase did out perform Hillary in AZ.
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Feb 22, 2017 00:57
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JeffersonClay posted:No that's not the point at all. If centrism is what turned voters off, and pure progressivism is what will motivate them again, you'd expect the progressive candidate to do better than the centrist candidate in a given state or district, but we don't actually see that anywhere. It's not that Bernie hurt her, it's that centrism didn't hurt Clinton, and indeed it may have given her an advantage. its not about progresivism or centrists actually. Its about if the policies appeal to the basic self interest of voters. FOr that is why people choose to vote. Hillary had at one point boosted TPP, which frankly wouldn't have been bad for the most part in concerns to manufacturing. However to people in the midwest still remembering the damage done in the 80s and 90s by trade policies it was not something they could back. Meanwhile the orange rear end in a top hat offers to bring their jobs back. Many didn't believe him, but also couldn't vote for someone who had supported more trade policies that were not in her interest. (Didn't help that Kaine was saying she really supported it either). Meanswhile the people in these towns and cities all over the Midwest were being told by orange asshoel he wanted America to be great again. Some thought that would mean better lives. others knew he couldn't or being great wouldn't help them. But then HRC said everything was great and they knew that was a lie. So they either vote fro Trump or stay home. Trump played to their self interest and won. @BI I hope justice is successful then if he is trying to do things differently.
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Feb 22, 2017 01:01
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:It was a meaningless vote, but by all means go find someone to challenge him. I get what you're trying to say here, but this is a dumb argument. "Well can you think of a specific person who can win? No? Then you can't criticize this person!" edit: It's like the political version of "You don't like this movie? Well can you make your own movie that's better??"
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Feb 22, 2017 01:03
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