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Dachshundofdoom posted:Wait, don't they generally immediately call it quits on Zell if you don't play by their rules too? And admit that they need help?
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Feb 22, 2017 21:37
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PoptartsNinja posted:You guys realize only the Clans are going to do the one target thing. You can fight whoever and concentrate fire like normal. Maybe these players want to get into The Remembrance?
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Feb 22, 2017 21:37
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PoptartsNinja posted:And admit that they need help? That's a good point, anyone driving around a loving monster Dire Wolf in the clans has got to have an ego big enough to know they can take on a lance of Inner Sphere machines no problem. (And of course, when you can unload with as many weapons as that thing has, it might be able to do it, too, with a couple good rolls).
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Feb 22, 2017 21:41
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Got ourselves a Mechican stand-off. 
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Feb 22, 2017 22:06
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My initial thought is to wait one more turn in the north. Even if the northernmost battlecobra stands on height 3 terrain we should still be masked by the height 5 terrain.
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Feb 22, 2017 22:09
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Did we establish if these Cloud Cobras would hold to Zell even if fighting Dezgra, or do they drop Zell in that situation? I know it was posted that they will hold strict to their interpretation of Zell; I don't have my source books handy to check, and even if I did, I don't know if the Cloud Cobras views have changed in this universe.
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Feb 22, 2017 22:10
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Remember though, if a Clanner hits you before you hit a target, they can freely attack you regardless of whoever you actually want to fight. Also, any Clanner who isn't engaged is almost certainly going to attack the the Green Knight, unless she attacks something first. Also, I wasted a bunch of time trying to figure out whether it would be better for the players to stay in partial cover or move in at full speed, but it turns out that the odds are pretty much even for being hit (assuming that the player mech is facing sideways, and that the enemy mech is running and gunning at medium range); so unless you really want a -2 modifier on your own rolls and a small boost in cooling in exchange for not moving, it doesn't really seem to matter. As a side note, this is actually pretty standard for a "clan must obey their own bullshit rules" style of game: they have 32,331 BV, the players have 14,677 (18,881 with the Green Knight). If the players don't cheese Zell, there's almost no way to actually win. Edit: CourValant posted:I know it was posted that they will hold strict to their interpretation of Zell; I don't have my source books handy to check, and even if I did, I don't know if the Cloud Cobras views have changed in this universe. Cloud Cobra was listed as Opportunistic in the regular universe, which means that "the warriors follow zellbrigen unless mitigating circumstances dictate otherwise (they are outnumbered/outgunned, they think they can get away with it, and so on)." Considering the circumstances here, they would probably follow Zell even in the vanilla universe. thetruegentleman fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Feb 22, 2017 |
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Feb 22, 2017 22:14
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C'mon it's just on the last page.PoptartsNinja posted:You guys realize only the Clans are going to do the one target thing. You can fight whoever and concentrate fire like normal.
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Feb 22, 2017 22:15
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thetruegentleman posted:If the players don't cheese Zell, there's almost no way to actually win. Don't ignore the massive advantage of always winning initiative. That's not reflected in the BV. But yes, the players should "cheese" Zellbringen by deliberately focus firing for maximum effect where needed, while goading individual clanners into disadvantageous one-on-ones where possible.
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Feb 22, 2017 22:26
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As the lowest weight friendly unit, I'm okay waiting for another turn in the north.  With any luck, next turn we should be able to pop that Battle Cobra straying close to us with some focus fire. That'll even the odds a bit.
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Feb 22, 2017 22:27
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Y'all are in a good position to squish them between your lances. Look for opportunities to shoot past the 'mech actually facing you to hit someone else in the back. Even clan 'mechs won't just shrug off a couple good hits to the rear.
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Feb 22, 2017 22:35
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Plek posted:Y'all are in a good position to squish them between your lances. Look for opportunities to shoot past the 'mech actually facing you to hit someone else in the back. Even clan 'mechs won't just shrug off a couple good hits to the rear. I wonder if it's feasible to wait in ambush until the clan mechs are entirely past you then jump out for all rear shots. Otherwise that assault star by itself has enough firepower to wipe out the friendly force.
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Feb 23, 2017 00:31
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Holy poo poo. This isn't modern strict Zell. This is 3049 strict Zell. You're about to see poo poo that doesn't even EXIST anymore.
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Feb 23, 2017 00:40
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Defiance Industries posted:Holy poo poo. This isn't modern strict Zell. This is 3049 strict Zell. You're about to see poo poo that doesn't even EXIST anymore. This is the kind of Zell where their response to you breaking Zell against them is to call you stupid barbarians and confidently assert they can destroy you no matter how many there are or how dishonorable your tactics are, isn't it?
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Feb 23, 2017 00:43
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Night10194 posted:This is the kind of Zell where their response to you breaking Zell against them is to call you stupid barbarians and confidently assert they can destroy you no matter how many there are or how dishonorable your tactics are, isn't it? Yes, it's the kind that the Clans used when they VERY VERY first invaded. It's basically from the same school of thought as the Clanners in canon who got the Dragoons' reports on how they fought in the Inner Sphere and refused to believe that the Inner Sphere, with whom they had had no contact, didn't follow their dueling rules.
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Feb 23, 2017 00:46
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Did the fluff ever attempt to explain the absurdity of that notion?
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Feb 23, 2017 00:48
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Yeah, that's why it's being called strict Zell, I suspect.
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Feb 23, 2017 00:49
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Fuzzy Mammal posted:Did the fluff ever attempt to explain the absurdity of that notion? Clanners are incredibly stupid and more importantly, strongly indoctrinated. This is interesting! This will be the fight the designers kind of intended for IS versus Clans, won't it? Where the outmatched IS pilots have to exploit the idiocy of Clanners to overcome superior piloting and equipment.
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Feb 23, 2017 00:51
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Defiance Industries posted:Yes, it's the kind that the Clans used when they VERY VERY first invaded. You sure about that? As someone posted above: thetruegentleman posted:Cloud Cobra was listed as Opportunistic in the regular universe, which means that "the warriors follow zellbrigen unless mitigating circumstances dictate otherwise (they are outnumbered/outgunned, they think they can get away with it, and so on)." And from my recollection, the Cloud Cobras are 'Liberal' in their adherence to Zell, so if we break Zell first, maybe they'll do the same? They're not The Jade Turkeys after all. That being said, nothing about how we would engage them changes. Emerge from surprise just as they pass, isolate and focus fire on their rears, call them names on the comms.
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Feb 23, 2017 00:55
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Understanding the Clan Mindset 101 The average member of the Warrior Caste is a brainwashed drone capable of deviating only marginally from standard Clan doctrine. This is true from the base Mechwarrior all the way up to the highest rungs of their leadership with only the rare exceptionally dangerous individual, such as Marthe Pryde, Ulric Kerensky, Dawn Moffat, and Jez Howell (you'll notice neither Natasha Kerensky nor Aidan Pryde are on this list), stand out from the pack. These individuals aren't necessarily ristars but the most canny of them parlay their superior understanding into either a battlefield or a political advantage. They are "winning bidders" who tend to force their bidding opponents into situations where they cannot win a battle without a concession. These individuals are also prone to slipping into and out of the Clan Warrior paradigm at a moment's notice, which makes them difficult to predict. Clan Warriors are raised from birth to believe that good warriors don't lose battles. Not that good warriors win most battles, that good warriors are literally incapable of losing an even fight. As such, because every member of the Warrior Caste believes somewhere deep down that they are the best warrior of their generation, they are incapable of conceptualizing a scenario in which they might lose. This makes them both incredibly aggressive in battle (because they're certain of victory) and also means they tend to bounce back from a loss very quickly (because the fight was uneven / the fight was lost in the bidding stage / the enemy cheated), but it does mean they are incapable of planning for or even envisioning a scenario--on either the tactical or strategic scale--in which they might lose. This inability to plan or compensate for failure means that their losses tend to snowball as they perform the same actions over and over again and are more than willing to throw their forces into costly attacks that have no chance of actually winning in the long term. For a society that claims to abhor waste, the Clans as a whole consider the bidding process sufficient for conserving their resources and any forces that are committed they will expend casually without any thought to future battles or maintaining unit cohesion. This has a huge impact on their operations at a strategic level, but it ultimately boils down to a complete inability to properly recognize when they've been suckered into a war of attrition. An enemy that can win by losing battles is a completely anathema to the Clans who will happily win battle after costly battle only to lose a war. On an individual level, what the Clan mindset means is that (aside from the rare exceptions mentioned above) a member of the warrior caste cannot conceive of interfering in another warrior's fight. To kill another warrior's Zell target is one of the gravest of insults in Clan culture, because it means, and I'm emphasizing this for a reason: The kill-stealer does not believe that the warrior whose fight they are interfering with is capable of winning fights. In other words: It's tantamount to calling the party being rescued a poor warrior, a slight no member of the Warrior Caste can afford to tolerate because it means the slighted party will not be given opportunities to advance. Interfering with a fight is virtually guaranteed to generate a Trial of Grievance after the battle, and only a unit's Star Colonel or Galaxy Commander is able to step in and say "No, the help was needed, drop it." Clan Warriors aren't afraid of getting involved in Trials, but as a general rule those who provoke a lot of unnecessary Trials die before advancing.
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Feb 23, 2017 00:58
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PoptartsNinja posted:Understanding the Clan Mindset 101 Thanks for the explanation, appreciate the insights. So, how does Dezgra fit in? My understanding is, if an opponent is Dezgra, either through reputation or action, then Clan Warriors don't have to follow Zell. As in, they don't deserve to die by honorable combat, so its 'weapons-free' on everyone.
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Feb 23, 2017 01:15
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Reminds me of your Ghost Bear's Legacy run where at one point your commander's commander says "Well yeah your moron CO would've lost us everything but you DID disobey a direct order so INTO THE CIRCLE OF EQUALS YOU GO. Don't gently caress it up!"
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Feb 23, 2017 01:18
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CourValant posted:So, how does Dezgra fit in? My understanding is, if an opponent is Dezgra, either through reputation or action, then Clan Warriors don't have to follow Zell. Killing a disgraced opponent is a task beneath every member of the Warrior Caste. Since there's no honor at stake, nothing is lost or gained by just gunning down the opponent expediently. However: because there's no honor in actually killing dezgra targets, most Clan Warriors won't typically want to bother doing so and will instead leave killing bandits and the like to warriors still in/just out of training. Experienced warriors forced to fight honorless opponents will bitch and moan endlessly about being forced to do so, and making the same warriors do so regularly will absolutely destroy the unit's morale since they're being treated like a Solamha unit. There are a few things to remember about "the Inner Sphere is dishonorable trash" edict: 1) Every Clan interpreted it differently, with most deciding that defeating Inner Sphere units was still honorable and that everyone who participated in doing so shared in that honor, even though defeating individual Inner Sphere `Mechs was not worthy of honor or praise. and 2) The entire thing was actually an attempt by Ulric Kerensky to destabilize the Clans, which is why the Jade Falcons just doubled down on the Clan Honor and eventually go the slaughter-all-prisoners route.
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Feb 23, 2017 01:27
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Wait, who is Ulric Kerensky? And really, the key to remember about Clanners is they're the idiot pubbies from every online competitive shooter you've ever played.
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Feb 23, 2017 01:30
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Night10194 posted:Wait, who is Ulric Kerensky? Prepare for some reading: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ulric_Kerensky
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Feb 23, 2017 01:34
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PoptartsNinja posted:Understanding the Clan Mindset 101 I remember one of those guys from one of the few BTech novels I read. I think it was a Clan Wolverine galaxy commander, I wanna say with the name of Radik? Apparently there's a rule where a commander can call the last asset they've bid away back into the fight when needed. It's seen as somewhat dishonourable, but still better than losing altogether. So what this guy did was to take over bidding for his entire galaxy, and then he bid away a whole trinary at once. So when then things turned bad for him, he was able to get a full trinary of reinforcements, thus outnumbering his enemies about 1.5:1, without ever violating the letter of the law. In the end he still lost, though, because the opposing Ghost Bear commander engaged in similar shenanigans. She just bid the entirety of the continent she was on as the battlefield and set no particular time of engagement, allowing her to conduct a full vietnam-style guerilla campaign on the poorly-supplied invaders. It was interesting to see both of them game the system as far as it would go, but it never seemed to even occur to them to ever outright step over the line and just break the rules entirely.
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Feb 23, 2017 01:39
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Looking at the map while waiting another turn does get the clanners closer and in a better position for being attacked at the same time it also brings them closer to the Green Knight and the buildings where we need to gather the data and people from. Is there a big enough risk of the buildings taking damage and stopping our objectives from being carried out to justify springing some sort of ambush now?
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Feb 23, 2017 01:40
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PoptartsNinja posted:
Seems like it worked then?
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Feb 23, 2017 01:55
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PoptartsNinja posted:2) The entire thing was actually an attempt by Ulric Kerensky to destabilize the Clans, which is why the Jade Falcons just doubled down on the Clan Honor and eventually go the slaughter-all-prisoners route. I always find it hilarious that the other clans decide to get the leader of the only clan to vote against the invasion to be the ilKhan.
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Feb 23, 2017 04:13
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CalvinandHobbes posted:I wonder if it's feasible to wait in ambush until the clan mechs are entirely past you then jump out for all rear shots. Otherwise that assault star by itself has enough firepower to wipe out the friendly force. I would worry about waiting too long because they might decide to paste the Green Knight when they spot her.
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Feb 23, 2017 04:54
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CourValant posted:You sure about that? It's what PTN said they would do and he doesn't lie to us. Plus, the Cobras are liberal in their Zell interpretation in the 3060s, and these guys are clearly not Clan Canon Cloud Cobra.
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Feb 23, 2017 05:06
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Weissritter posted:I always find it hilarious that the other clans decide to get the leader of the only clan to vote against the invasion to be the ilKhan. The Clans are prisoners of their stupid mindset. The Wolves had taken the most territory so they're the best, ergo the leader of the Wolves has to be the best leader. Despite his not even all that well hidden desire to stop the invasion by any means necessary. Clanner is as Clanner does. 
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Feb 23, 2017 05:13
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Weissritter posted:I always find it hilarious that the other clans decide to get the leader of the only clan to vote against the invasion to be the ilKhan. As expected of a Stackpole antagonist plot, but if Conal Ward had taken Ulric's spot after he was elevated to ilKhan then he has no influence over the Wolves and becomes a warlord without an army, or last among equals in the land of the honor-bound strongmen. Later ilKhans don't even bother with replacing the leadership vacuum in their old Clan and act like super-Khans of their Clan, though a few of those were busy trying not to die in their short time in office.
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Feb 23, 2017 06:29
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Weissritter posted:I always find it hilarious that the other clans decide to get the leader of the only clan to vote against the invasion to be the ilKhan. To be honest, it wasn't a terrible plan; the idea was that if Ulric was ilKhan he'd have to appoint his Clan's Loremaster, who was a committed Crusader, as the new Khan of the Wolves, at which point even if the ilKhan thinks the invasion is stupid he's the only one that thinks so and so there's nothing he can really do about it. Except Ulric then said "nah, I'm not gonna do that, I'm gonna appoint Natasha Kerensky instead." Basically he was able to turn the hidebound nature of the Clans' reverence for tradition against them by saying "I don't give a gently caress if it's traditional, it's not actually the law." The plan would have worked if Ulric had been the same kind of hidebound traditionalist that the Clans constantly churn out - though had he been that kind of hidebound traditionalist the issue never would have arisen in the first place, so.
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Feb 23, 2017 07:47
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But does it really matter if Clan Wolf's Khan was a Crusader? They were taking the most territory anyway. And it seems like the clan standard doctrine is a lot more... nebulous than what PTN said - what with the Warden/Crusader split, their adherence to Zell, how each clan has different views on the other castes, trueborn/freeborn views and what not.
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Feb 23, 2017 08:25
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Doctrine and standard operating procedure changes from Clan to Clan, just as it does with modern militaries, but they all teach their kids the way Nicky K intended: that good warriors only lose one fight (the one that kills them).
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Feb 23, 2017 08:31
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They did not indoctrinate the invasion-era Kerenskys well, I think. Ulric, Natasha, Ranna and Katya.
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Feb 23, 2017 08:36
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Rana wasn't on the list of dangerous individuals, not because she's not dangerous, but because she's fully bought-into the warrior caste kool-aid. It's why Ulric used her to indoctrinate Phelan. Rana is dangerous because she takes that Warrior Caste paradigm and makes it obscenely dangerous by being a 0/1 pilot in a Warhawk C. Assuming she's running (which is something she typically doesn't need to bother with since enemy targets have to come to her or they're dead) Her average to-hits at long range against Clan heavies are (0 base + 3 range (thanks, Warhawk quirks!) + 2 movement + 3 enemy movement - 1 targeting computer = 7), or 5s with her pulse lasers. If she's standing still she needs 5s with her PPCs and 3s with her pulse lasers, and again that's at long range. At short range she can freely eat the +3 aiming penalty to always attack Punch Hit or shoot rear armor or blow legs off and just murder anyone who gets too close. Or just TarComp bore through the center torso without a care in the world. She doesn't play the game any differently, she's too murderous to need to. PoptartsNinja fucked around with this message at 08:53 on Feb 23, 2017 |
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Feb 23, 2017 08:45
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Fair points, though for me she seems too reasonable for someone who fully buys into the warrior caste kool-aid. Her romance with Phelan to me is an indication, but maybe it is not explicitly forbidden for someone of the warrior caste to fall in love?
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Feb 23, 2017 09:11
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Weissritter posted:Fair points, though for me she seems too reasonable for someone who fully buys into the warrior caste kool-aid. Her romance with Phelan to me is an indication, but maybe it is not explicitly forbidden for someone of the warrior caste to fall in love? It's not that it's forbidden, it's that there's no reason to care about it since marriage and child rearing don't exist in the Clans. She's just a weirdo. PoptartsNinja posted:Masakari C stuff This is also why Reinhardt Steiner's last stand was just him parking his Masakari at the top of a hill and why he killed like 15 Blakists before he went down. Defiance Industries fucked around with this message at 09:31 on Feb 23, 2017 |
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Feb 23, 2017 09:28
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