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The Phlegmatist posted:Letting people who go to Protestant seminaries write material for Catholics/Orthodox seems like it always ends up weird because they bring that unique brand of legalism into everything they touch. Look at the Orthodox Study Bible for an example; it's blindingly obvious to me that the study notes were written by converts, because people who were raised Eastern Orthodox don't use that kind of language. One of the essays basically has an altar call in it! 
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Feb 21, 2017 23:19
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P-Mack posted:Stop pissing on LGBT people, don't shelter pedos, maybe a monthly pancake breakfast? I dunno. Yes, so what's ailing the Episcopal and other left leaning mainliners? We're super cool, and all that, but still no one cares. Or notices. I don't know.
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Feb 21, 2017 23:57
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you also need that timeless sense of communication with an ancient tradition, and an appreciation of mystery, which most of the mainliners do not and theological rigor, which is not the same as being right wing
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Feb 22, 2017 00:05
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WerrWaaa posted:Yes, so what's ailing the Episcopal and other left leaning mainliners? We're super cool, and all that, but still no one cares. Or notices. I don't know. My local Episcopal church is super chill, but if I go there Henry VIII wins...
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Feb 22, 2017 00:56
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P-Mack posted:Stop pissing on LGBT people, don't shelter pedos, maybe a monthly pancake breakfast? I dunno. Open and affirming churches are the ones that are dying the quickest, though, which nobody really has a good explanation for. I think this is mainly a demographic issue though. Liberal churches tend to skew older, their members have less kids than conservatives and they're less likely to be gung-ho about regular church attendance.
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Feb 22, 2017 01:18
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The Phlegmatist posted:Open and affirming churches are the ones that are dying the quickest, though, which nobody really has a good explanation for.
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Feb 22, 2017 01:20
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religions that require more personal sacrifice in general do better than ones where you don't even need to show up, because if you're good as you are why come? this isn't to say being affirming is the problem, so much as it correlates with a liturgical and theological "looseness" that doesn't demand much of people. if the catholic church changed nothing aside from permitting LGBT people to exist without condemnation the church would probably gain more members and lose fewer. this doesn't compromise anything, it just opens up the fullness of the catholic family to other people who are historically excluded. but this is equated to loose liturgical rites, less strict spirituality, and essentially moral relativism so it won't happen, but if open and affirming congregations and MCC saw this less as a grand ecclesial statement and more traditionally you might not see the losses they have how many in this thread have said liturgically conservative, socially liberal, and how impossible it is to toe that line?
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Feb 22, 2017 01:29
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Senju Kannon posted:how many in this thread have said liturgically conservative, socially liberal, and how impossible it is to toe that line?
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Feb 22, 2017 02:44
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HEY GAIL posted:because the same people who have good opinions about life have poo poo opinions on ritual and what is the proper size of your silly hat I don't think young people like lame ritual either. Trying to make Mass more contemporary just left us with hymns and decor trapped in the post-Vatican II 70's, so it's still out of date but it doesn't have the cachet of a thousand years of tradition. Like what do teenagers like? WH40K and Game of thrones and anime and stuff, right? Why not lean into the Latin chanting and weird looking angels with a hundred wings and eighty mouths breathing holy fire. Anyway, a priest once told me something along the lines of "Maybe the decline in attendance continues in a straight line forever. Maybe two hundred years from now the Church is a tiny organization that meets in member's basements and the general public thinks we're crazy at best and dangerous at worst. So what? We've been there before."
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Feb 22, 2017 03:15
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Personally, at least speaking as an American in the South, I think a large part of why millenial attendance of church is declining is because in most American culture, when you say "Christian" people think of the Republican party and the Religious Right. I generally don't identify as Christian in public anymore unless I'm in a situation where I can clarify that I'm firmly left-wing.
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Feb 22, 2017 03:43
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Thanks to Francis people seem to finally be noticing that the Catholic Church is left wing on social and economic issues when they don't deal with sex, gender, and reproduction. My dad (actual dad, not poster) said his priest read out a letter from the bishop before the election going on about how Catholics need to vote with [ISSUE] foremost in mind and wink wink nudge nudge we all know which candidate that means. Why even bother repealing the Johnson Act?
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Feb 22, 2017 03:56
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Repealing the Johnson Amendment is just a wink and a nudge to conservative Christians. The drat thing's never enforced anyway, at least not against churches. There's even an event every year where evangelical pastors blatantly violate it to endorse specific candidates and essentially dare the IRS to come after them. Nothing happens. Most churches seem to shy away from endorsing specific candidates as a matter of decorum rather than being afraid of the Johnson Amendment, but everyone knows what an evangelical pastor means when he tells you to "vote for the most Biblical candidate" or whatever. It's also eye-rolling when churches suddenly take strong stances on stuff like tax reform. Oh, okay, where's that in the Bible? Or did you get your political views mixed up with your religious ones again.
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Feb 22, 2017 04:10
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The Phlegmatist posted:It's also eye-rolling when churches suddenly take strong stances on stuff like tax reform. Oh, okay, where's that in the Bible? "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's"
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Feb 22, 2017 05:40
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I agree that high buy in is important. At a retreat once we read through a bunch of church membership agreements-- our Bishop was insulted by the most demanding, highly committed statement, only to find out afterward that it was from one of the biggest, most thriving, liberal parishes in California. Clearly I need to start a D&D Adevnturers League for my parish, though.
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Feb 22, 2017 05:41
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when i converted to orthodoxy, i was pleasantly surprised by how small most orthodox parishes are, you really get to know people and make friends. maybe catholic and episcopalian parishes should be smaller?
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Feb 22, 2017 05:52
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well unfortunately a number of catholic dioceses had to pay millions of dollars in lawsuits so there's not much money left to keep smaller parishes afloat i wonder what it was that caused that
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Feb 22, 2017 05:54
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HEY GAIL posted:when i converted to orthodoxy, i was pleasantly surprised by how small most orthodox parishes are, you really get to know people and make friends. maybe catholic and episcopalian parishes should be smaller? for catholics that's just not feasible: we've already got a major shortage of priests, and more parishes to contain the same number of people would only compound the problem. currently over 15% of parishes in the U.S. are without a resident pastor. i think that going the route of our eastern and orthodox sisters and brothers and opening the priesthood up to married men would help a lot, and restoring women to the diaconate would further help to increase the quality of pastoral care and ease everyone's burdens. but until a major change like that is made and brings a lot more men to the seminary, we simply can't afford to multiply the number of parishes.
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Feb 22, 2017 06:05
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It's even worse outside of the US. Technically we're not really doing that bad here, and seminary enrollment is rising for whatever reason (bad economy maybe? dunno.) We've got one priest for every 2,000 Catholics. Manila has one priest for every 20,000. The Philippines in general have one for every 8,000 which is similar to Mexico's numbers. Parishes are a lot smaller in Europe, seemingly, but when you combine that with the vocation shortage you wind up in situations where in some areas you'll have like one priest for ten+ parishes and he just travels around.
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Feb 22, 2017 06:46
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The Phlegmatist posted:Parishes are a lot smaller in Europe, seemingly, but when you combine that with the vocation shortage you wind up in situations where in some areas you'll have like one priest for ten+ parishes and he just travels around. Also he's originally from India, which may be a good thing because it makes old church ladies less racist. Over here the church rarely says anything about sex and relationships, but they go on at length about why we should be nice to refugees. The reason for that is pretty obvious. Churches here can't really perform a marriage, the ceremony is just for members' own amusement, and if you want the various legal benefits of marriage you have to get a permit at a state office. But the church is really big in the art, music and charity business, so that's what they care about. Das Sein bestimmt das Bewusstsein 
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Feb 22, 2017 08:21
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today i found out that not only can you write theology in kanji, but you can write liberation theology in kanji as well 解放の神学. 素晴らしい
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Feb 22, 2017 20:21
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Senju Kannon posted:well unfortunately a number of catholic dioceses had to pay millions of dollars in lawsuits so there's not much money left to keep smaller parishes afloat which solves the "the diocese does not have money" problem but creates problems of its own edit: i think it was keromaru5 who mentioned that priests' kids sometimes end up resenting their parents HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Feb 22, 2017 |
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Feb 22, 2017 22:10
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 Patriarch Theodoros II of Alexandria and All Africa consecrates deaconesses ITS LIT and it was the Eastern Orthodox Theodoros not the Coptic one because there are two in Alexandria and it's confusing. Edit also I'm super late but it's fine to punch Nazis. Killing them is less fine, but St. Alexander Nevsky didn't greet the Livonian knights with bouquets of flowers. God understands if it is truly the only option your lovely mortal brain can accept in dire straits. It's not good though Rodrigo Diaz fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Feb 23, 2017 |
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Feb 23, 2017 00:52
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I can't even imagine how it's possible to be bi-vocational. The pastor at my last church put in 70 hr weeks pretty easy between all the church administrative stuff, sermon prep, hospital visits, Bible studies, endless Presbyterian bureaucratic nonsense, solving drama between the congregants, ecumenical outreach, coordinating volunteers, attending para-church functions... Burnout's insane for pastors who have it as their sole job, adding another one on top of that seems like it'd drive you insane.
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Feb 23, 2017 00:54
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The Phlegmatist posted:Burnout's insane for pastors who have it as their sole job, adding another one on top of that seems like it'd drive you insane. on the other hand, most orthopriests are married, so all but one of the things they have to do, they have someone to share the load edit: on the other other hand, that means if you want kids, now you have to think about raising kids on top of those billion jobs HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 01:48 on Feb 23, 2017 |
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Feb 23, 2017 01:43
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HEY GAIL posted:edit: i think it was keromaru5 who mentioned that priests' kids sometimes end up resenting their parents In both cases, it's as if, for better or worse, your dad isn't just your dad, he's the entire community's dad.
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Feb 23, 2017 02:01
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Rodrigo Diaz posted:Edit also I'm super late but it's fine to punch Nazis. Killing them is less fine, but St. Alexander Nevsky didn't greet the Livonian knights with bouquets of flowers. God understands if it is truly the only option your lovely mortal brain can accept in dire straits. It's not good though
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Feb 23, 2017 02:02
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The American president has finally issued the executive order that rescinds protections for trans children in public schools. Please offer prayers to God or to St. Nicholas the Wonderworker for the protection of these children: they really, really need it now.
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Feb 23, 2017 02:09
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Rodrigo Diaz posted:
What does 'Deaconess of the Missions' mean?
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Feb 23, 2017 02:41
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Bel_Canto posted:The American president has finally issued the executive order that rescinds protections for trans children in public schools. Please offer prayers to God or to St. Nicholas the Wonderworker for the protection of these children: they really, really need it now. this season of america took a weird turn
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Feb 23, 2017 03:11
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Paladinus posted:What does 'Deaconess of the Missions' mean? I'm not exactly sure the full range of allowances it makes but at the very least they are able to help conduct marriages, adult baptisms, etc. at the monastery of Kolwezi in the DRC. Who knows what this will mean for future recognition of the order outside of Africa but this is the first step and hopefully not the last.
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Feb 23, 2017 05:09
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HEY GAIL posted:insanely enough, it was loving devos who was on the right side here i mean she didnt actually do poo poo about it its funny how fast ive gone from voting for mitt romney to reading dorothy day and thinking "yeah checks out"
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Feb 23, 2017 05:27
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StashAugustine posted:i mean she didnt actually do poo poo about it Senju Kannon posted:allow me to introduce you to a man called
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Feb 23, 2017 05:42
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not quite leftist enough yet, check back in a year or so
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Feb 23, 2017 05:58
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wasn't dorothy day an anarchist
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Feb 23, 2017 06:05
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Senju Kannon posted:wasn't dorothy day an anarchist She's with catholic worker, which most anarchists recognize as part of the club, yeah. I don't think she'd necessarily call herself that, but the issues advocated are close to big A anarchism. E: quote:Discussing the term anarchism, she wrote: "We ourselves have never hesitated to use the word. Some prefer personalism. But Peter Maurin came to me with Kropotkin in one pocket and St. Francis in the other!"
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Feb 23, 2017 07:58
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HEY GAIL posted:insanely enough, it was loving devos who was on the right side here Who is devos? I mean, other than a rocking new wave band.
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Feb 23, 2017 11:35
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Betsy DeVos, the woman now responsible for education and the school system who coincidentally also hates the very idea of public, state-run schools with the fury of a thousand suns
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Feb 23, 2017 12:38
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http://www.themarysue.com/pope-a-plus-twitter-game/ This "Heaven is doing ~~extreme vetting~~ too" meme is just the loving worst 
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Feb 23, 2017 16:14
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System Metternich posted:http://www.themarysue.com/pope-a-plus-twitter-game/ i will never get tired of white hetero dudes making themselves look ridiculous in front of the entire world by trying to mansplain christianity to the pope
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Feb 23, 2017 17:58
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Bel_Canto posted:i will never get tired of white hetero dudes making themselves look ridiculous in front of the entire world by trying to mansplain christianity to the pope Is it even mansplaining if it's toward another man? Here, like nowhere else, the word patronise would make much more sense, imo.
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Feb 23, 2017 18:18
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