World of Darkness Megathread: Curse of the Were-Poster

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Sion: Oct 16, 2004; "I'm the boss of space. That's plenty."

Josef bugman posted:

Okay, so quick thing OPP brought out beast and Paradox/ NWW are acting like bastards.

Is the press release from paradox or from NWW?

Nothing from Paradox. They're kind of saying 'it's nothing to do with us! We just own them, we don't operate them.'

The LGBT flag on their twitter account is super loving cute too

# ? Feb 23, 2017 01:12

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 15:01

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Kai Tave posted:

But to be serious for a moment if whatsisname the Dracula guy is really a diehard oWoD fanboy then it totally makes sense that he cares about canon because the old World of Darkness was very much a product of the metaplot days of TRPGs where a bunch of people decided that someone's incredibly lovely ongoing storyline actually mattered, so if he views Onyx Path as some sort of pretenders to the throne it follows that he's going to disavow everything they've done as non-canon if for no other reason than he doesn't want anyone else to have a say-so in the metaplot he undoubtledly plans on charting through this revival.

Metaplot: Still ruining loving everything decades later!

# ? Feb 23, 2017 01:13

Basic Chunnel: Sep 21, 2010; Jesus! Jesus Christ! Say his name! Jesus! Jesus! Come down now!

So how is that IT-enabled future LARP coming along

# ? Feb 23, 2017 01:15

Axelgear: Oct 13, 2011; If I'm wrong, please don't hesitate to tell me. It happens pretty often and I will try to change my opinion if I'm presented with evidence.

Kurieg posted:

It also has Rose attached to it, if not at the helm, meaning things are a lot better. It's even got Valkyries who don't give two shits about what you're packing between your legs as long as you identify as a woman.

Was there anything like that in Norse mythology?

That isn't me being pithy, I'm curious if it's something I've never heard about. The Norse, if I recall correctly, had some pretty severe (and bizarre) gender roles, like how the receptive partner in man-on-man intercourse was guilty of some terrible and unmanly sin, whereas the penetrating partner was just proving how manly he was. On the other hand, I've heard that a lot of their worshiping of their gods was via emulating said god, which involved dressing and acting like said god.

Anyone know anything about this? If it's a reference to an actual myth, that'd be pretty badass.

# ? Feb 23, 2017 02:38

neaden: Nov 4, 2012; A changer of ways

Axelgear posted:

Was there anything like that in Norse mythology?

That isn't me being pithy, I'm curious if it's something I've never heard about. The Norse, if I recall correctly, had some pretty severe (and bizarre) gender roles, like how the receptive partner in man-on-man intercourse was guilty of some terrible and unmanly sin, whereas the penetrating partner was just proving how manly he was. On the other hand, I've heard that a lot of their worshiping of their gods was via emulating said god, which involved dressing and acting like said god.

Anyone know anything about this? If it's a reference to an actual myth, that'd be pretty badass.

My understanding is that pretty much all of our sources for Norse Myths were written down a couple generations after Christianization by people who didn't actually believe in them. That said what we do have indicates the Norse were pretty big on gender roles and were pretty terrible to men who were seen as acting unmanly. That said I don't think it is particularly important for a game to stay true to how some dudes a thousand years though we should act especially if it helps people see themselves in fiction.

# ? Feb 23, 2017 02:51

Loomer: Dec 19, 2007; A Very Special Hell

That being said, their conception of unmanly was a little more complex than is often given credit for, and not quite as harsh. One thing that gets trotted out a lot is the idea that you could be killed for being the receptive partner, and it's true that you could, but not without the other guy being liable for the killing if you had someone who was inclined to prosecute. 'He's gay so he can be killed' wasn't so much the law. Where it gets interesting is that saying someone is gay opens up the possibility for you yourself to be killed in retaliation for the insult, which shows their overall attitude to the idea of being ergi - but it also doesn't automatically mean that you have to kill them or you'll face terrible penalties yourself like some people interpret it to mean. There's also a question of honour involved, and at a certain point there's no honour involved. Most of the evidence of it is where there was honour involved, where someone responded violently and started some poo poo, so that complicates our hand-me-down perspective. We have a couple of more or less shrugged off references too.

I suspect, and this is just supposition without strong evidence, that there were probably more than a few gay fellas and transpeople who just shrugged at the accusation, accepted that they were 'unmanly', and went on with their lives while their partner/family/powerful patron if they had one protected them from anything more serious - just like most of europe at the time.

# ? Feb 23, 2017 03:06

The Unlife Aquatic: Jun 17, 2009; Here in my car
I feel safest of all
I can lock all my doors
It's the only way to live
In cars

neaden posted:

That said I don't think it is particularly important for a game to stay true to how some dudes a thousand years though we should act especially if it helps people see themselves in fiction.

This. This is why "but that's how it was!!!" or "HISTORICAL ACCURACY" are terrible things to bring up in a game. We have an opportunity to be better people, and so we should be. The exactitudes of history are for historians.

# ? Feb 23, 2017 03:08

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

The Unlife Aquatic posted:

This. This is why "but that's how it was!!!" or "HISTORICAL ACCURACY" are terrible things to bring up in a game. We have an opportunity to be better people, and so we should be. The exactitudes of history are for historians.

The other reason is the guy screaming HISTORICAL ACCURACY has usually, at best, read a wikipedia article about the subject.

# ? Feb 23, 2017 03:13

Loomer: Dec 19, 2007; A Very Special Hell

Or half-remembers a two-hour lecture in high school.

# ? Feb 23, 2017 03:15

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Loomer posted:

Or half-remembers a two-hour lecture in high school.

And only the parts that say a woman belongs in the kitchen and Game of Thrones is sooooo realistic.

# ? Feb 23, 2017 03:16

Mors Rattus: Oct 25, 2007; FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

There is also some strong evidence that Norse gender roles weren't nearly as strict as we've been led to believe, given the number of women buried with weaponry and the stories about Norse shieldmaidens.

# ? Feb 23, 2017 03:16

neaden: Nov 4, 2012; A changer of ways

Mors Rattus posted:

There is also some strong evidence that Norse gender roles weren't nearly as strict as we've been led to believe, given the number of women buried with weaponry and the stories about Norse shieldmaidens.

True, but just because a society permits women to take up men's duties at times like combat doesn't mean it would be OK with the reverse. The Chevalier D'Eon was able to claim and find a degree of acceptance as a woman who had masqueraded as a man but probably would have been killed or imprisoned if it was known that they were biologically male who sometimes presented as a woman.

# ? Feb 23, 2017 03:22

Lightning Lord: Feb 21, 2013; $200 a day, plus expenses

As an OWoD fan I have to say that OPP were and are better stewards of that through the 20th Anniversary stuff than original White Wolf ever were, with the possible exception of the best of the Revised periods. Like Vampire the Dark Ages 20 is a work of goddamn art.

I have zero hope for Paradox, especially after the bullshit they've done lately.

Late to the party I know but I just started reading non D&D parts of SA again :3:

# ? Feb 23, 2017 03:41

The Unlife Aquatic: Jun 17, 2009; Here in my car
I feel safest of all
I can lock all my doors
It's the only way to live
In cars

Mors Rattus posted:

There is also some strong evidence that Norse gender roles weren't nearly as strict as we've been led to believe, given the number of women buried with weaponry and the stories about Norse shieldmaidens.

Fun fact: Many modern Asatru interpret Odin as a trans masculine person and as the God of Transpeople. He is the Man Who Made Himself. He practices magic usually reserved for women, his 12th great name is The Castrate. There is a lot of interesting evidence on the subject. Also, hanging himself from the tree is a really resonate trans-narrative: Killing one version of yourself to become a better, wiser one.

# ? Feb 23, 2017 03:58

Lightning Lord: Feb 21, 2013; $200 a day, plus expenses

The Unlife Aquatic posted:

Fun fact: Many modern Asatru interpret Odin as a trans masculine person and as the God of Transpeople. He is the Man Who Made Himself. He practices magic usually reserved for women, his 12th great name is The Castrate. There is a lot of interesting evidence on the subject. Also, hanging himself from the tree is a really resonate trans-narrative: Killing one version of yourself to become a better, wiser one.

I have several trans nerd friends who would love love love this. Thank you for posting it.

# ? Feb 23, 2017 03:59

The Unlife Aquatic: Jun 17, 2009; Here in my car
I feel safest of all
I can lock all my doors
It's the only way to live
In cars

Lightning Lord posted:

I have several trans nerd friends who would love love love this. Thank you for posting it.

Have an article that goes into intense detail. Warning: outdated terminology.

Basically, Odin is extremely tied to gender-variant behavior at minimum.

# ? Feb 23, 2017 04:00

Axelgear: Oct 13, 2011; If I'm wrong, please don't hesitate to tell me. It happens pretty often and I will try to change my opinion if I'm presented with evidence.

neaden posted:

That said I don't think it is particularly important for a game to stay true to how some dudes a thousand years though we should act especially if it helps people see themselves in fiction.

Yeah, was not in the least bit saying otherwise, I was just curious if there was something I didn't know about.

I've now got this mental image of a pair of Valkyries dressed in super 80s anarcho-punk rocker get-ups, carrying punks who got beat-down fighting skinheads up to Valhalla.

Somewhere, there's an electric guitar decorated with a wolf pelt, called the Bearded Axe.

# ? Feb 23, 2017 04:02

Kurieg: Jul 19, 2012; RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20

Loomer posted:

That being said, their conception of unmanly was a little more complex than is often given credit for, and not quite as harsh. One thing that gets trotted out a lot is the idea that you could be killed for being the receptive partner, and it's true that you could, but not without the other guy being liable for the killing if you had someone who was inclined to prosecute. 'He's gay so he can be killed' wasn't so much the law. Where it gets interesting is that saying someone is gay opens up the possibility for you yourself to be killed in retaliation for the insult, which shows their overall attitude to the idea of being ergi - but it also doesn't automatically mean that you have to kill them or you'll face terrible penalties yourself like some people interpret it to mean. There's also a question of honour involved, and at a certain point there's no honour involved. Most of the evidence of it is where there was honour involved, where someone responded violently and started some poo poo, so that complicates our hand-me-down perspective. We have a couple of more or less shrugged off references too.

I suspect, and this is just supposition without strong evidence, that there were probably more than a few gay fellas and transpeople who just shrugged at the accusation, accepted that they were 'unmanly', and went on with their lives while their partner/family/powerful patron if they had one protected them from anything more serious - just like most of europe at the time.

There's also a section on Loki's pronouns and how they're happy that modern gender politics have caught up with them. Scion 2e appears to be operating on the conceit that not only has society advanced slightly differently due to the fact that the gods and the supernatural are around and active, the gods and supernatural have all changed in meaningful ways due to the fact that mortal society is aware of them and they don't need to hide away in insular communities. One of the bits that we were given in the Kickstarter preview mentioned that nations were having to revive "Centuries old Lycanthropy Laws" to deal with the resurgence in werewolves.

# ? Feb 23, 2017 04:02

Loomer: Dec 19, 2007; A Very Special Hell

The Unlife Aquatic posted:

Have an article that goes into intense detail. Warning: outdated terminology.

Basically, Odin is extremely tied to gender-variant behavior at minimum.

This is part of why I actually do include Odin in my personal pantheon. A lot of people go 'lol odinists' in the heathenry community because half the time Odinism is either white supremacists or fuckwits being edgy, but since I practice various forms of sorcery and don't quite align comfortably with heteronormativity, Odin is my poo poo.

From a syncretist perspective, his tree and the Kabbalistic tree metaphor are basically tailormade to work together too.

# ? Feb 23, 2017 04:11

Mormon Star Wars: Aug 13, 2005; It's a minotaur race...

Desiden posted:

I'm actually surprised that only one dipshit apologist has shown up here so far. RPG.net's been playing whack-a-mole with the cronies for a few days now. Apparently we're not as important (though apparently no forum that points out what a piece of poo poo Zak is is important, if you believe the barrage of posts in those forums by his lackeys).

It's not that we aren't as important, it's that he tried it once and came off as such a clown that GBS noticed and decided to go after him, which is a much bigger consequence than doing it on other forums.

# ? Feb 23, 2017 04:22

Daeren: Aug 18, 2009; YER MUSTACHE IS CROOKED

Loomer posted:

This is part of why I actually do include Odin in my personal pantheon. A lot of people go 'lol odinists' in the heathenry community because half the time Odinism is either white supremacists or fuckwits being edgy, but since I practice various forms of sorcery and don't quite align comfortably with heteronormativity, Odin is my poo poo.

From a syncretist perspective, his tree and the Kabbalistic tree metaphor are basically tailormade to work together too.

May everything that you pay homage to bless you, you weird and wonderful motherfucker.

# ? Feb 23, 2017 05:04

Rubix Squid: Apr 17, 2014

All this Odin-talk makes me even more secure of making the celestine that calls itself Odin in my own brand of shenanigans the spirit-god of crossing boundaries and mucking up taboos for power.

# ? Feb 23, 2017 05:04

The Unlife Aquatic: Jun 17, 2009; Here in my car
I feel safest of all
I can lock all my doors
It's the only way to live
In cars

Rubix Squid posted:

All this Odin-talk makes me even more secure of making the celestine that calls itself Odin in my own brand of shenanigans the spirit-god of crossing boundaries and mucking up taboos for power.

Add a heaping helping of :drugnerd:

: and you've checked off most of Odin's boxes.

# ? Feb 23, 2017 05:12

Loomer: Dec 19, 2007; A Very Special Hell

Just don't forget simultaneously being an absolute fatalist and a perpetual optimist. Odin knows he is doomed, but he's not going to die without giving it one hell of a fight to try and avoid it. What better way to die well than to make your enemies really have to work for it!

# ? Feb 23, 2017 05:16

RandallODim: Dec 30, 2010; Another 1? Aww man...

Loomer posted:

This is part of why I actually do include Odin in my personal pantheon. A lot of people go 'lol odinists' in the heathenry community because half the time Odinism is either white supremacists or fuckwits being edgy, but since I practice various forms of sorcery and don't quite align comfortably with heteronormativity, Odin is my poo poo.

From a syncretist perspective, his tree and the Kabbalistic tree metaphor are basically tailormade to work together too.

Daeren posted:

May everything that you pay homage to bless you, you weird and wonderful motherfucker.

Yeah, wanna add my voice to saying you're a good sort, Loomer, and your in-depth posts about this stuff are super cool.

Also guess I'm just gonna buy Scion when it drops to support OPP instead of Mage, specifically because gently caress White Wolf, and secondarily because I'm very down with anything that embraces Loki's gender fluidity.

# ? Feb 23, 2017 05:26

Lightning Lord: Feb 21, 2013; $200 a day, plus expenses

I think Vampire the Dark Ages 20th Anniversary Edition is the best World of Darkness product. Anyone else think so?

# ? Feb 23, 2017 05:28

Alien Rope Burn: Dec 5, 2004; _{I wanna be a saikyo HERO!}