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If you think the only micro in SC2 is mass clicking and moving marines, welp that's just not true. It also doesn't make sense to complain about build orders. The RTS genre is at its core: the player is given a base amount of economic and military resources. The player makes decisions to invest those resources to get more economic and military resources, or detract from villains resources. A build order is just "what's the optimal way to get X at time Y without dying". That's in every RTS with strategic resource acquisition. Edit: To be fair I'm completely on the opposite perspective. I don't give a rats behind about single-player. I just want to play fast-space-chess against a human opponent. JIZZ DENOUEMENT fucked around with this message at 08:04 on Feb 23, 2017 |
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Feb 23, 2017 08:00
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a bone to pick posted:Joining the Institute in Fallout 4 is the most logical and moral choice but the retards at Bethesda made it the only "evil" ending. I am amazed that you were able to distill what the goals of the Institute actually were beyond loving with people on the surface Anyway, it was the Minutemen ending for me, because I'm the leader. I didn't like any of the other factions.
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Feb 23, 2017 08:16
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JIZZ DENOUEMENT posted:The RTS genre is at its core: the player is given a base amount of economic and military resources. The player makes decisions to invest those resources to get more economic and military resources, or detract from villains resources. not every rts is a dune 2 clone you know games like mow and world in conflict function completely differently and men of war places a lot more emphasis on intelligent economy spending that varies wildly after your third or so purchase. plus casualties actually have long term consequences due to the way that the resource system is set up. casualties only matter in starcraft in the short term as units can be replaced indefinitely and rapidly. turtling a massive blob of tanks and attritioning your way into a base is a viable tactic. starcraft suffers from being about as deep as a puddle. I'm not saying there isn't strategic gameplay in it, but what is there pales in comparison to more modern games that aren't steeped in 2 decades of antiquated design philosophy and you have to have not played any other game besides starcraft and supcom and its clones to not see why. SpaceClown fucked around with this message at 08:28 on Feb 23, 2017 |
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Feb 23, 2017 08:23
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supcom being very close to the same game as starcraft but with a far bigger emphasis on macro and a marginally more interesting economy. it still lacks the depth and complexity of the modern RTS.
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Feb 23, 2017 08:26
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A build order isn't some magical password you're forced to input, it's just an initial plan. You know... your strategy. For the strategy game.
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Feb 23, 2017 08:29
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Zorodius posted:A build order isn't some magical password you're forced to input, it's just an initial plan. You know... your strategy. For the strategy game. the fact that there is an optimal "initial plan" thats more than the opening moves to the game is exactly why starcraft is a pathetic strategy game.
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Feb 23, 2017 08:30
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SpaceClown posted:the fact that there is an optimal "initial plan" thats more than the opening moves to the game is exactly why starcraft is a pathetic strategy game. That's exactly what it is, though - the opening moves. The plan goes off the rails as soon as someone does something unexpected.
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Feb 23, 2017 08:36
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men of war build order: -buy assault squad -buy infantry squad -if the map is 3v3, buy a IFV OTHERWISE -buy another assault squad now its not even 2 minutes in and what you buy next will depend entirely on whether or not you can get away with putting off purchasing a medium tank while your infantry hold the line starcraft 2 build order: -supply depot -barracks -barracks -barracks -marine -supply depot -orbital command -marine -marine -barracks -marine -supply depot -marine -marine -marine and so on and so forth for another 10 minutes
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Feb 23, 2017 08:38
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SpaceClown posted:the fact that there is an optimal "initial plan" thats more than the opening moves to the game is exactly why starcraft is a pathetic strategy game. Chess... a pathetic strategy game
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Feb 23, 2017 08:43
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starcraft: this blob should hold the enemy at bay long enough for my upgrades to finish  men of war: Lets see, if I position my sniper at the top of this cottage, they can get a good view of the tall grass leading up to flag B, which will allow me to see if any drat brandenburgs are trying to sneak up on my Sherman. I'll just have my marines pop some smoke to cover his entry to the building then have them take cover by their halftrack. Hmm my Pershing is running out of ammo, I really should resupply it but my truck is stuck in no-mans land, sandwiched between two heavy machine gun teams and an AT gun on the enemy side and I really can't spare the cash to buy a new one because I have to anticipate my Pershing's Sherman escort getting tracked and subsequently flanked and I sure as hell am not about to let my pershing investment go to waste. and ah hell the ranger squad just got wiped out by a single HE round from that pesky stug! 
SpaceClown fucked around with this message at 08:48 on Feb 23, 2017 |
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Feb 23, 2017 08:45
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SpaceClown posted:the fact that there is an optimal "initial plan" thats more than the opening moves to the game is exactly why starcraft is a pathetic strategy game. that's largely the reason why i'd like to see more changes in how RTSes handle base building because you might as well automate the opening moves if there's such a narrow set of optimal moves that it requires a strict flowchart & timetable - you're already basically an AI yourself if you have to follow those instructions to the letter w/o much thought
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Feb 23, 2017 08:45
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JIZZ DENOUEMENT posted:Chess... a pathetic strategy game chess is loving boring so yeah.
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Feb 23, 2017 08:46
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im serious, starcraft is stuck in the early 90s the genre has evolved so much since then. honestly supreme commander is the logical evolution of the dune clone brought into the 21st century, but for some reason blizzard would rather rehash the same game with balance tweaks and call it a day and people slurp it up. at this point ArmA is a more interesting RTS than starcraft and thats loving hilarious when you think about it.
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Feb 23, 2017 08:57
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SpaceClown posted:chess is loving boring so yeah. chess is good if you play it right 
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Feb 23, 2017 09:33
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Modern RTS games like SC2 are particularly uninteresting because there is very little room for creativity. Anything viable you can think of doing has already been done before faster and more effectively by some korean somewhere, so you're always just constantly learning how to play like people better than you unless you're at the top of the game. Everyone else is just copies of those few guys of varying quality.
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Feb 23, 2017 09:38
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SpaceClown posted:im serious, starcraft is stuck in the early 90s the genre has evolved so much since then. honestly supreme commander is the logical evolution of the dune clone brought into the 21st century, but for some reason blizzard would rather rehash the same game with balance tweaks and call it a day and people slurp it up. As someone who preferred TA, Spring, and SupCom, I still respect what Starcraft is trying to do. I just want nothing to do with its community.
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Feb 23, 2017 09:40
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MOBAs are poo poo
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Feb 23, 2017 09:44
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Jestery posted:MOBAs are poo poo
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Feb 23, 2017 10:08
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final fantasy v was the best one
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Feb 23, 2017 13:56
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Rocksmith 2014 is better than Rock Band 3.
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Feb 23, 2017 14:19
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I guess I just don't like the real time aspect of RTS games. I don't want to be rushed. I'm going back to XCOM and advance wars. I wish there was a turn based Command & Conquer. I'd kill for that. The Skeleton King fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Feb 23, 2017 |
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Feb 23, 2017 15:50
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we need more pages of this thread dedicated to talking about lovely RTS games and startegies.
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Feb 23, 2017 16:05
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The Skeleton King posted:I guess I just don't like the real time aspect of RTS games. I don't want to be rushed. try gameboy wars 3
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Feb 23, 2017 16:06
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SpaceClown posted:try gameboy wars 3
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Feb 23, 2017 17:33
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Oh man it looks pretty good, but what's up with the weird tile arrangement https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcup8dEDVN0
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Feb 23, 2017 17:36
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wtf it's a hex based *wars game that's awesome
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Feb 23, 2017 17:42
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its also got a lot more units, like commandos and CAS aircraft there's a english translation romhack somewhere.
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Feb 23, 2017 18:39
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any of you talking about RTS games being ~strategic~ with all the elite strategies have successfully tested positive for autism. RTS games are probably the most pointless form of game, and the only thing worse than being good at them is being smug about being good at them.
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Feb 23, 2017 18:50
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someone sounds upset.
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Feb 23, 2017 18:53
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Space Crabs posted:any of you talking about RTS games being ~strategic~ with all the elite strategies have successfully tested positive for autism. That was my point, there is no strategy or innovation involved, there is a defined set of "viable" builds and each one has an equally well-described counter to it and you either do it better than them or not. It all comes down to rock paper scissors in the end and there's no strategy involved in that.
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Feb 23, 2017 18:54
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Play on a really big map. That makes people have to adapt their tactics. People with their build orders and rush strategies down pat hate bigger maps because it puts more units in play and changes it from short game to mid-long game. Why do you think all the SC2 maps people play on are perfectly symmetrical things where your enemies are right across the lawn from you? Games with bigger, asymmetrical maps encourage more dynamism.
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Feb 23, 2017 18:58
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Jestery posted:MOBAs are poo poo This is the thread for unpopular videogame opinions, not nearly universally accepted facts about non-videogames.
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Feb 23, 2017 19:00
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yeah I eat rear end posted:That was my point, there is no strategy or innovation involved, there is a defined set of "viable" builds and each one has an equally well-described counter to it and you either do it better than them or not. It all comes down to rock paper scissors in the end and there's no strategy involved in that. there are certain levels of play where you can get by using a set but powerful build order to make an overwhelming army that wins just by using an optimized spreadsheet but things fall apart when the enemy understands scouting, disruption, passage of play, terrain and knows the strengths and weaknesses of the strategy you've had to double-down on it's like the equivalent of the fps dude that uses the best guns and perks who camps in a tricky spot down a busy hallway, like all multi-player games have a meta where someone can marginally succeed at middle levels by doing things not in the spirit of the match
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Feb 23, 2017 20:35
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phasmid posted:Play on a really big map. That makes people have to adapt their tactics. People with their build orders and rush strategies down pat hate bigger maps because it puts more units in play and changes it from short game to mid-long game. Why do you think all the SC2 maps people play on are perfectly symmetrical things where your enemies are right across the lawn from you? Maps are symmetrical so that the game is fair.
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Feb 23, 2017 21:30
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Wow this thread was actually fun to read and post in before the RTS nerds hosed it all up.
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Feb 23, 2017 21:37
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I thought it was a genre that everyone stopped playing in 2003 or so
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Feb 23, 2017 21:38
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SpaceClown posted:we really need a 4X Dune game. Would love a paradox game about the Landsraad. https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=701950713
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Feb 23, 2017 22:02
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JIZZ DENOUEMENT posted:Chess... a pathetic strategy game chess has lots of good openings though? its not like lovely starcraft at all
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Feb 23, 2017 22:15
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if you havent you should try wargame: red dragon. from what youve been posting here you'd enjoy it a lot. just a friendly tip to someone that seems to enjoy the S in RTS 
Das Butterbrot fucked around with this message at 09:23 on Feb 24, 2017 |
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Feb 24, 2017 09:21
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| # ? May 8, 2024 20:45 |
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Sleeping Dogs is very underrated. It's like GTA but it's a Hong Kong chopsocky movie where you can push guys' faces into table saws
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Feb 24, 2017 13:00
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