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MaxxBot posted:Why does the "woke" left have such a hateboner for white gay men? I don't see this level of vitriol from these people aimed at any other subset of any minority group, white or not. Firstly, I'm sorry, but being gay doesn't prevent you from being racist and sexist as any other white guy, duder. I've been groped by more gay guys than straight guys, and I've heard just as much racist bullshit out of white gay people as any other category of white person. Secondly, "I assume you're probably racist" is not hate. It's exhaustion. It's maybe pre-emptive self defense. No one is owed the benefit of the doubt, though. When we talk about racism/sexism/opression/etc we're talking about power, and frankly, white men, gay or straight, still have way better access to it than the rest of us do. I don't think we give white lesbians enough flack for our racism and transphobia either. e: I do imagine that this is more true in urban areas, than say, your town of 4,000, an hour from a major city, where cultural christian values have a lot more sway. Octatonic fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Feb 23, 2017 |
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Feb 23, 2017 22:55
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So if someone tweeted "I assume white Jews are problematic and/or racist/transphobic/biphobic until they prove otherwise" that would be OK too? I don't see that getting the same level of acceptance from other leftists, or any other minority inserted in there. There seems to be an underlying assumption that somehow white gay men are singularly bad.
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Feb 23, 2017 22:58
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MaxxBot posted:Yeah that's the part I find confusing, I recognize that racism is a serious issue that needs to be worked on and I've certainly meet white gays with terrible views but they're certainly not singularly bad in that regard. I don't see these same people attacking "white male Jews" or anything like that with such vitriol. I literally don't think I have ever seen one of these "woke" people go after white lesbians. boy you have not seen antisemitism in the "social justice community" then. jewish issues are rarely discussed, and when hate crimes happen to jews there's a lot of hemming and hawing about how "well jews are really white so..." going on. not to mention pro-palestinian people have an unfortunate tendency to slide into antisemitism, sometimes intentionally, sometimes unintentionally. i haven't seen "white lesbians" so much, but i would assume "white feminism" and "white girls" would overlap with that a lot i don't know, it's probably partially confirmation bias and partially white gay dudes are more likely to be visible in mass media than jews or lesbians EDIT: MaxxBot posted:So if someone tweeted "I assume white Jews are problematic and/or racist/transphobic/biphobic until they prove otherwise" that would be OK too? I don't see that getting the same level of acceptance from other leftists, or any other minority inserted in there. There seems to be an underlying assumption that somehow white gay men are singularly bad. yeah no there's definitely a lot of homophobia with the way gay dudes get singled out (same with lesbians from asexual tumblr, which is a sentence fragment i hate that i am able to write), but the fact is that there is a lot of antisemitism and misogyny at play too you're just less likely to notice it because confirmation bias
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Feb 23, 2017 23:00
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MaxxBot posted:Yeah that's the part I find confusing, I recognize that racism is a serious issue that needs to be worked on and I've certainly meet white gays with terrible views but they're certainly not singularly bad in that regard. I don't see these same people attacking "white male Jews" or anything like that with such vitriol. I literally don't think I have ever seen one of these "woke" people go after white lesbians. You're being disingenuous. People call out white gay men specifically because they are part of the queer community and are happy to milk that when it benefits them, but aren't happy to carry the load when other portions of the community need help. Jews have nothing to do with the queer community.
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Feb 23, 2017 23:01
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cis autodrag posted:You're being disingenuous. People call out white gay men specifically because they are part of the queer community and are happy to milk that when it benefits them, but aren't happy to carry the load when other portions of the community need help. Jews have nothing to do with the queer community. Why would a white gay man be more racist than a white lesbian, or more transphobic than a black gay man?
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Feb 23, 2017 23:04
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MaxxBot posted:Why would a white gay man be more racist than a white lesbian, or more transphobic than a black gay man? Do you literally not understand words? White gay men have a unique position of privilege that causes them not to comprehend the issues other queer people struggle with. Consequently, they're seen as ignorant of or in opposition to queer issues. It is not any kind of affirmative statement of lesbians or black people or anything else. It is instead a specific statement about the shortcomings of white gay men. Please keep the goalposts exactly where they belong.
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Feb 23, 2017 23:09
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MaxxBot posted:So if someone tweeted "I assume white Jews are problematic and/or racist/transphobic/biphobic until they prove otherwise" that would be OK too? I don't see that getting the same level of acceptance from other leftists, or any other minority inserted in there. There seems to be an underlying assumption that somehow white gay men are singularly bad. I think it's a pretty big misstep to compare homophobia to antisemitism! There are completely different histories here, particularly in a time when there's been a big uptick of threats directed at jewish cultural and religious centers! Moreover, there's been plenty of ink spilled over sexism and racism in hasidic communities. I think that white people are white people, and men are men, and your sexuality doesn't influence it that much. I have known so many gay dudes who say they can't be sexist because they're gay, and in the same breath have really inappropriate, unwanted, contact with their female friends, or say really misogynist things about female genitals. You've got to have seen the legions of shirtless torsos on grindr going "no fats no fems no asns." Gay men and women have a gently caress ton of unexamined privilege. If you'd like us to start calling out white lesbians our terrifying amount of biphobia and transphobia and racism too, I'm down, though I see a decent bit of it in my social media circles. Octatonic fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Feb 23, 2017 |
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Feb 23, 2017 23:09
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MaxxBot posted:Why would a white gay man be more racist than a white lesbian, or more transphobic than a black gay man? If you use intersectionality to calculate their oppression score, you'll see that white lesbians are a 4.2 (down three points from just a year ago), black gay men are a 8.9, but white gay men are only a 2.3.
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Feb 23, 2017 23:12
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cis autodrag posted:Do you literally not understand words? White gay men have a unique position of privilege that causes them not to comprehend the issues other queer people struggle with. Consequently, they're seen as ignorant of or in opposition to queer issues. It is not any kind of affirmative statement of lesbians or black people or anything else. It is instead a specific statement about the shortcomings of white gay men. Please keep the goalposts exactly where they belong. That's not how things tend to work in real life though, people do not automatically have empathy for other minority groups just because they are a minority or oppressed in some way. Do you literally think that someone being black or female automatically makes them more likely to support trans rights?
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Feb 23, 2017 23:21
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MaxxBot, you are succumbing hardcore to some hardcore masculine/white fragility right now, and I think you should take a step back and really examine why you feel singled out. Have a coffee, go for a walk in the snow.
Octatonic fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Feb 23, 2017 |
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Feb 23, 2017 23:24
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Octatonic posted:MaxxBot, you are succumbing hardcore to some hardcore masculine/white fragility right now, and I think you should take a step back and really examine why you feel singled out. Have a coffee, go for a walk in the snow. I was writing another reply to him but honestly this is what it is. If you can't understand how being part of the queer community but then being willfully blind to its struggles is a problem for gay white men but not some random black person, you're just being dense.
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Feb 23, 2017 23:29
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The argument that being part of a minority group automatically makes you more likely to support rights for other minority groups literally isn't true though. There's reams of social issue polling out there with crosstabs that breaks it all down. Sometimes one minority will support another at higher rates than average and sometimes they don't, there's no clear trend in the polling.cis autodrag posted:I was writing another reply to him but honestly this is what it is. If you can't understand how being part of the queer community but then being willfully blind to its struggles is a problem for gay white men but not some random black person, you're just being dense. You're the one who just accused me of "not understanding words." It wasn't "random black person" I was asking why you would assume that a white gay man on average would have worse opinions on trans issues than a black gay man. MaxxBot fucked around with this message at 23:32 on Feb 23, 2017 |
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Feb 23, 2017 23:30
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MaxxBot posted:The argument that being part of a minority group automatically makes you more likely to support rights for other minority groups literally isn't true though. This is what you're not getting. Gay white men allow themselves to be grouped into the same minority group as trans people, lesbians, etc when it suits their needs, but are able to distance themselves from that group when it advantages them. They get to have it both ways and that's hosed up. What you're advocating, essentially, is just to say that gay white men no longer get to place themselves under the larger LGBTQ umbrella. What we're saying is that gay white men have a habit of picking their queer advocacy issues a la carte, which other subsections of the queer umbrella can't do as easily.
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Feb 23, 2017 23:34
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it's more like a black gay man at least would have a better understanding of anti-black racism than the white gay man. it's more the perfect storm of everything than that black gay dudes are better about gendercis autodrag posted:This is what you're not getting. Gay white men allow themselves to be grouped into the same minority group as trans people, lesbians, etc when it suits their needs, but are able to distance themselves from that group when it advantages them. They get to have it both ways and that's hosed up. i kinda disagree with this cause the dude's saying that this is also true of black gay dudes and of lesbians of any race (true), so it's more like "why is it always the white GAY dudes instead of white LESBIAN ladies" and the answer to that is that it is also true of them, it's just the dude's not a white lesbian or jewish or any of that so dude's not really feeling it when it's said like i said it's confirmation bias mixed with homophobia, internalized or otherwise
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Feb 23, 2017 23:37
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cis autodrag posted:This is what you're not getting. Gay white men allow themselves to be grouped into the same minority group as trans people, lesbians, etc when it suits their needs, but are able to distance themselves from that group when it advantages them. They get to have it both ways and that's hosed up. I'm not advocating it at all, I'm just stating the fact that from looking at a ton of polling crosstabs being part of minority X does not automatically make you aware and sensitive to the plight of minority Y.
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Feb 23, 2017 23:39
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Senju Kannon posted:
A little maybe, but the reality is that a white gay man can, if push comes to shove, hide the fact that he's gay. A black person can never stop being black. Intersectionality is complicated and I'm probably not expressing it well, but being a white man does a lot to overcome the difficulties of being queer. But like I said, the way some people online are like "every white gay is a *phobe and a jerk and abloobloo" is insanely out of proportion and people need to take a chill pill. The real message is that white gay guys need to stop sometimes and think about how their experiences are different from other queer people and how they fit into that community, because they are part of that community.
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Feb 23, 2017 23:41
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As a white bisexual man, I've had almost countless good experiences with lesbians, whereas gay men have across the board been pretty sexually aggressive and mean to me. This is entirely anecdotal though.
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Feb 23, 2017 23:45
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cis autodrag posted:A little maybe, but the reality is that a white gay man can, if push comes to shove, hide the fact that he's gay. A black person can never stop being black. Intersectionality is complicated and I'm probably not expressing it well, but being a white man does a lot to overcome the difficulties of being queer. To complete strangers, sure, but not to anyone you interact with on a regular basis. There are many, many examples from history of governments and private agencies being able to expose and fire/jail gays en masse even though their sexuality was probably their most closely kept secret. Unless you're really good at lying and deceiving people anyone who wants to know can find out. Or you can look at modern Russia, etc. Many stories of beatings and murders even of deeply closeted gays.
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Feb 23, 2017 23:49
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I just think it's really hypocritical for someone to complain about white people being racist and then in the same breath admit to making character judgements about people based on nothing more than their skin color.
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Feb 24, 2017 00:22
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Join us this time next week for "no, you are the real racist!"
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Feb 24, 2017 00:37
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Keeshhound posted:I just think it's really hypocritical for someone to complain about white people being racist and then in the same breath admit to making character judgements about people based on nothing more than their skin color. Wow.
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Feb 24, 2017 00:56
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AriadneThread posted:Join us this time next week for "no, you are the real racist!" It's me, I am the most racist racist that ever racisted.
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Feb 24, 2017 01:04
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cis autodrag posted:wait, did you think i was implying we should kill trans kids or something? i was making the standard "<x> wouldn't be a problem for <y> if they were armed". im trans my dude, i want to protect all the adorable trans kids. It looked like you were advocating trans suicide at first, not for trans people to defend themselves
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Feb 24, 2017 02:10
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MaxxBot posted:To complete strangers, sure, but not to anyone you interact with on a regular basis. There are many, many examples from history of governments and private agencies being able to expose and fire/jail gays en masse even though their sexuality was probably their most closely kept secret. Unless you're really good at lying and deceiving people anyone who wants to know can find out. You are basically a walking illustration of the inability to recognize your own privilege. You're not going to get it so I am giving up on this chat.
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Feb 24, 2017 02:46
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cis autodrag posted:This is what you're not getting. Gay white men allow themselves to be grouped into the same minority group as trans people, lesbians, etc when it suits their needs, but are able to distance themselves from that group when it advantages them. They get to have it both ways and that's hosed up. Is it intentional or just ironic that you've just used the primary argument biphobic people everywhere use to try and push bi folks out of queer spaces?
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Feb 24, 2017 02:49
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cis autodrag posted:You are basically a walking illustration of the inability to recognize your own privilege. You're not going to get it so I am giving up on this chat. privilege is a bad social theory imho
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Feb 24, 2017 02:53
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Liquid Communism posted:Is it intentional or just ironic that you've just used the primary argument biphobic people everywhere use to try and push bi folks out of queer spaces? Bi people not standing up for the queer community doesn't seem to be much of a problem so I'm not sure why you're trying to undercut me by pointing out a superficial similarity to biphobic nonsense.
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Feb 24, 2017 02:54
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cis autodrag posted:Bi people not standing up for the queer community doesn't seem to be much of a problem so I'm not sure why you're trying to undercut me by pointing out a superficial similarity to biphobic nonsense. are you seriously saying gay dudes don't "stand up" for the queer community like just cause trans rights are getting a rollback doesn't mean it's easy to be gay in this country. like you're deviating from "white gay dudes are likely to be racist, biphobic, and transphobic" (which i assume the tweet means because they're raised in a racist, biphobic, and transphobic community) and edging towards "gay people are barely queer and don't face oppression" which is dumb as heck like nuance is good and cool and privilege theory won't get you there
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Feb 24, 2017 03:00
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I think I'm feeling piled on and I am explaining myself really badly here. All I am trying to say is gay guys who are white often haven an easier time than other queer people (not an easy time, just easier, I am absolutely not trying to invalidate the struggles of white gay men) and it can blind them to the struggles of others. I know way too many people that got marriage equality and then just stopped caring about any of the issues their friends still face.
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Feb 24, 2017 03:12
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Senju Kannon posted:like nuance is good and cool and privilege theory won't get you there It's possible to apply it in a nuanced manner but a lot of people just don't, you can't distill complex issues down to nothing but more privilege vs less privilege.
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Feb 24, 2017 03:15
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I think it comes down to an unfortunate fact: queer people can be lovely people, too.
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Feb 24, 2017 04:07
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*looks at hugegantic stack of problems facing the LGBT community* Yes I admit "white men gets undeserved hurt feels when looking at Twitter" is a real and legitimate problem in our community, and I'm going to put it riiiiiiiiiight here where its severity warrants it. *sticks it two pages from the bottom, right above "If Bigfoot were real he might eat gays sometimes" and "would the Pride flag be more fabulous with 7 colors" and right below "that one problematic Star Trek episode where Riker defied gender norms by dating a straight woman from the Planet of Androgynous Lesbians"*
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Feb 24, 2017 04:44
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Maybe we just hate white gay men now because when asked why, they refuse to accept any answer given because they've decided that it's super-secret homophobia in action and that's all they want to hear?
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Feb 24, 2017 11:34
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Oh wow. Using the closet as a sign of privilege in the QUILTBAG thread. I would not want to find out cis autodrag's opinion on bisexuals and especially bi men. Using hideability as privilege is a common biphobic argument and if I reached conclusions like that tweet that was linked I would assume that people with <insert cis autodrag's identity> is problematic and biphoic until proven otherwise.
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Feb 24, 2017 12:46
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From the DnD picture thread but what is the story behind this?
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Feb 24, 2017 17:05
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Hollismason posted:From the DnD picture thread but what is the story behind this? How the gently caress is blocking someone bullying them?
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Feb 24, 2017 17:14
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Short story: Cathy Brennan is a poo poo. Longer story: Apparently there's a thing with Facebook's algorithm where if sufficient people block a person within a timeframe then you can't block them, because it interprets it as an attack or something, therefore people aren't allowed to stop Cathy Brennan doxxing them. I'd hope most people have anything they care about not being public set to private or friends only anyway, but some people do not and people like her exist.
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Feb 24, 2017 17:16
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a woman who outed a teenager to her school complaining about being bullied is about the level of self awareness i'd expect from a fake goth
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Feb 24, 2017 17:17
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What's the story behind Cathy Brennan, or what's the story behind the facebook thing? Brennan is an infamous TERF who runs around outing trans folk, sending harassing letters to their doctors, and getting into fights with other feminists and LGBTQIA members over how all trans people are just crazy and/or malicious and it's misogyny to believe otherwise. She's also lovely to sex workers. I'm guessing some trans group sent out a warning about her which sent a bunch of people over to her page to block her, triggering the algorithm.
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Feb 24, 2017 17:27
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I still cannot fathom a possible reason for Facebook to block someone from blocking someone. That makes no sense. So, somebody can no longer view a bunch of other people's profiles. So, what? Someone please provide a legitimate reason for this algorithm to exist that isn't grasping at straws. Also, I 100% had privilege when I was in the closet about being transgender and about being bisexual. I also hated myself and wanted to die. It was not worth it just be accepted as "normal" everywhere.
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Feb 24, 2017 17:34
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