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Alter Ego posted:...because their voters are single-issue idiots. I thought we were better than that, no? Twice now we have seen that no matter how awful the other guy is, you cannot stand solely in opposition to him--you must give people a reason to vote for you. Why is this such a hard thing to grasp? I mean the 2006 gains in the House and Senate were basically predicated on "Stop Bush." I am not saying we shouldn't have a message of what we'd do with power, but I think y'all are understating how being the actual opposition party is a hell of a lot easier to organize around than being de jure party in power (even if we were only nominally in power then.)
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# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:29 |
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# ? Jun 10, 2024 10:56 |
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JeffersonClay posted:If yo're running against president trump, "fix what trump broke" is in fact a message of positive change. Okay, and how you do that is by countering the attempted repeal of Obamacare with declaring that healthcare rights must be expanded further, you counter right-to-work by reaffirming your support for organized labor and a high minimum wage, etc. etc.
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# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:29 |
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Alter Ego posted:Oh yay, back to a poll-driven campaign. Better than whatever gut feeling strategy you're advocating. Fiction posted:That's only the tip of the spear, though. You still need an overarching message for the campaigns or you can't win. Where are you getting "more" from? It may be a slam dunk issue but there's no proof that it's enough of a unifying message among non-Democrats to be enough on its own. 53% of independents think Russia definitely interfered and 66% think it's an important issue. 41% of republicans think it's an important issue FFS. I know y'all have trouble embracing a strategy that would even in some small way validate Hillary Clinton but you need to get over it, this poo poo is gold.
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# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:31 |
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JeffersonClay posted:
I'm not contesting that. I'm saying you need more meat than that. It's not a governing message. To ape a certain politician, will impeaching Trump enact campaign finance reform? Will it stop the Republican stranglehold on state houses fueled by gerrymandering and voter suppression? Fiction fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Feb 24, 2017 |
# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:31 |
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Paracaidas posted:The waiver required, among other things, consistent training of CS staff on their legal and ethical obligations and forced them to submit to enhanced oversight to ensure that they were playing by the rules and not engaging in shady illegal schemes. Training, though generally useless, is critical in this waiver process- it denies the banks, executives, and employees any opportunity to escape prosecution by pointing to the "knowingly" portion of relevant statutes (their typical, and wildly effective, defense). enhanced oversight would make me feel better if this wasn't the same industry caught hiring prostitutes for the people charged with overseeing them. they should not have been managing pensions period. the magnitude of their crimes in recent memory was well beyond probationary poo poo like enhanced oversight.
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# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:32 |
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Fiction posted:The Republicans responded to Obama by driving further right because that was the message they got from town halls and primaries from their constituents who opposed them. It's natural that if you seek to fight Trump, you must also seek to have a set of defining issues you can battle them on that Trump is directly threatening. In 2006 we elected a whole bunch of House members but weren't focused on using those seats in a way that could push the party's vision forward, and we got the watered down ACA for it. Do you have any idea what a big loving deal even getting the watered down ACA was? Like passing legislation of that scope really was a big loving deal dude.
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# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:33 |
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Do you have any idea what a big loving deal even getting the watered down ACA was? Like passing legislation of that scope really was a big loving deal dude. I'm well aware. I contend that it could have been even better with a more coherent ideological framework for the 50-state strategy.
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# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:34 |
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Fiction posted:Okay, and how you do that is by countering the attempted repeal of Obamacare with declaring that healthcare rights must be expanded further, you counter right-to-work by reaffirming your support for organized labor and a high minimum wage, etc. etc. I can't fathom why you'd think I would oppose incremental movement left in conjunction with anti-trump messaging, but let me assure you I do not. WampaLord posted:That's not nearly enough. Obama didn't run on "Fix what W broke." Yes, he did! Fiction posted:I'm not contesting that. I'm saying you need more meat than that. It's not a governing message. Yes, because we can weaponize it in the election in 18 months.
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# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:36 |
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Fiction posted:I'm well aware. I contend that it could have been even better with a more coherent ideological framework for the 50-state strategy. And your contention is largely wrong.
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# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:36 |
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JeffersonClay posted:Yes, he did! No, he ran on Hope and Change you loving goddamned moron.
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# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:37 |
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And good lord yes, Obama ran on a big message of "Fix What Republicans Have Broken."WampaLord posted:No, he ran on Hope and Change you loving goddamned moron. What do you think Hope and Change were directly about? Do you think Hope and Change was about enacting a far-left buffet of policies? Hope and Change was basically "look at how lovely things have gotten under the Bush Administration and Republican Governance."
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# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:37 |
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:I mean the 2006 gains in the House and Senate were basically predicated on "Stop Bush." I didn't say it wasn't easier to organize, but if we do what we did in 2006 again, we'll end up with another short stint in power followed by years of irrelevancy because we pissed it all away again. It's not a coincidence that the greatest Presidential speeches in history make no mention of their opponents. People respond best when they hear what you're going to do for them in exchange for them voting you into office. Better jobs, better schools, improved infrastructure, more affordable health insurance--these are things that will sink into the consciousness of the voting populace. Give them a reason to vote for you. BI NOW GAY LATER posted:And good lord yes, Obama ran on a big message of "Fix What Republicans Have Broken." Funny, I have like a dozen rally signs from his campaign and none of them say "Fix What Republicans Have Broken". Obama ran on a positive message of change. I'm not going to argue about whether he was specific about it, but the fact is that he gave people a reason to show up on election day.
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# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:38 |
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:I mean the 2006 gains in the House and Senate were basically predicated on "Stop Bush." Letting the GOP gently caress over the entire world for a period of six years as opposed to eight doesn't sound like the greatest of victories. BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Do you have any idea what a big loving deal even getting the watered down ACA was? Like passing legislation of that scope really was a big loving deal dude. Neither do big loving deals that are going to be scrapped because the New Democrats are a bunch of incompetents.
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# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:38 |
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:You very clearly don't know a whole lot about Chuck Schumer. He's my senator, I know plenty about him. My point is that if Captain Neoliberal is doing everything he can to pretend to be progressive, that should be an indicator of where the party winds are blowing.
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# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:38 |
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"Bush bad, this my fight song pokemon go to the polls" - Barack Hussein Obama
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# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:38 |
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"vote for clinton"- Bernie Sanders
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# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:39 |
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:And good lord yes, Obama ran on a big message of "Fix What Republicans Have Broken." Hope and Change was not the "I am not Republican" message, it was a positive message of, well, hope and change.
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# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:40 |
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Alter Ego posted:I didn't say it wasn't easier to organize, but if we do what we did in 2006 again, we'll end up with another short stint in power followed by years of irrelevancy because we pissed it all away again. I think you're misreading what I, at least, am specifically saying. WampaLord posted:Hope and Change was not the "I am not Republican" message, it was a positive message of, well, hope and change. It was "we're different from Republicans."
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# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:40 |
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WampaLord posted:No, he ran on Hope and Change you loving goddamned moron. Hope for a glorious civil bipartisan consensus and change from disasterous Bush policies. That's what he ran on, and it worked.
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# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:41 |
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JeffersonClay posted:Hope for a glorious civil bipartisan consensus and change from disasterous Bush policies. That's what he ran on, and it worked. So why are you arguing that he ran on "I'm not Bush"? JeffersonClay posted:53% of independents think Russia definitely interfered and 66% think it's an important issue. 41% of republicans think it's an important issue FFS. I know y'all have trouble embracing a strategy that would even in some small way validate Hillary Clinton but you need to get over it, this poo poo is gold. Then let Congress investigate him for it. In the meantime, Democrats need to go back to the drawing board and craft a message that isn't "vote for me or the other guy wins". The Russia thing isn't unimportant, but ask a single mother of 3 living in the inner city which issue she cares about more--the fact that she works two jobs and still can't make ends meet or the fact that Donald Trump may have colluded with Russia--and see which answer you get. Congressional Democrats should keep pushing the Russia angle in the press when asked about it, but when it comes time to go home and campaign, that CANNOT be their only talking point. They NEED a cohesive, positive message. Fritz Coldcockin fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Feb 24, 2017 |
# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:41 |
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JeffersonClay posted:Yes, because we can weaponize it in the election in 18 months. Weaponize it to enact what policies? You need both.
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# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:42 |
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JeffersonClay posted:Hope for a glorious civil bipartisan consensus and change from disasterous Bush policies. That's what he ran on, and it worked. Look, we can talk about Campaign Obama versus President Obama all day, but Campaign Obama loving won and won hard.
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# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:43 |
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I am still not sure who y'all think is saying we should advocate for policies that we believe make America better?
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# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:45 |
What is the voting schedule like for the DNC positions and such? The chair is tomorrow, officers are today, right? Also looking at the list of delegates, it is absolutely loving shameful that there's four delegates from Wyoming, and only six from Wisconsin. Wisconsin has ten times the population and has (had ) a long history of progressive and labor union activism.
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# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:46 |
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SKULL.GIF posted:What is the voting schedule like for the DNC positions and such? The chair is tomorrow, officers are today, right? Y'all are being punished for giving the country Scott Walker
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# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:47 |
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"im going to dronestrike a wedding" said presidential candidate barack obama, cackling like a hellfiend
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# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:47 |
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Calibanibal posted:"im going to dronestrike a wedding" said presidential candidate barack obama, cackling like a hellfiend Go away.
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# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:48 |
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So the race for VA Governor this year should be interesting. You have incumbent Lt. Governor Ralph Northam going up against former Congressman Tom Perriello. A lot of people are trying to re-cast it as another re-fight of the Endless Primary but Perriello at least is trying really hard to push back against it. As a Virginian I was definitely leaning Northam before, but after reading Perriello's interview here I'm now more undecided. I'm curious how this primary race ends up going. I think it also has good thoughts and ideas on how the party moves forward and what to do (re-fighting the Endless Primary not being one of them). Again, for Democrats to take control of VA they only need to pick up 18 Delegates, 1 Senator and retain the Governor's Mansion. I'm hopeful that it'll happen. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/02/tom_perriello_wants_to_prove_that_the_party_s_best_bet_is_moving_left.html Slate posted:
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# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:49 |
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This Perriello fellow seems like A Good Guy, and you should vote for him.
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# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:51 |
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Fiction posted:Weaponize it to enact what policies? You need both. The 2016 democratic platform. WampaLord posted:Look, we can talk about Campaign Obama versus President Obama all day, but Campaign Obama loving won and won hard. Campaign Obama was not some leftist firebrand he ran on reversing bush policies and bipartisan consensus solutions. "But he had some vague platitudes" is not evidence to the contrary.
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# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:53 |
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Alter Ego posted:This Perriello fellow seems like A Good Guy, and you should vote for him. He's cool and I am jealous of having good people to vote for in 2018.
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# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:53 |
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if Perez wins this Perriello guy will likely turn up dead in a ditch somewhere. how dare he bicker with his fellow democrats
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# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:54 |
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JeffersonClay posted:Campaign Obama was not some leftist firebrand he ran on reversing bush policies and bipartisan consensus solutions. "But he had some vague platitudes" is not evidence to the contrary. He also had charisma and that extra "oomph" that gets people motivated and voting. He made people BELIEVE that he was running as a firebrand, that's what matters.
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# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:55 |
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https://newrepublic.com/article/140847/case-tom-perez-makes-no-sense
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# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:57 |
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axeil posted:So the race for VA Governor this year should be interesting. You have incumbent Lt. Governor Ralph Northam going up against former Congressman Tom Perriello. A lot of people are trying to re-cast it as another re-fight of the Endless Primary but Perriello at least is trying really hard to push back against it. I wish he wouldn't. You don't get to say "this is nothing like the primary" when you're a progressive black sheep candidate primarying the DNC establishment from the left. Just go with it, man.
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# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:58 |
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Calibanibal posted:"im going to dronestrike a wedding" said presidential candidate barack obama, cackling like a hellfiend Campaign Obama supported the use of drones and said he'd violate Pakistan's sovereignty to blow up terrorists so yeah, pretty much.
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# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:58 |
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That was posted yesterday and I generally agree, though again it was written by an Ellison supporter so add that into your framing.
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# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:58 |
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Why do liberals desire 8 years of.Trump? Why do Democrats desire to be as irrelevant as the Greens?
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# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:59 |
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JeffersonClay posted:Better than whatever gut feeling strategy you're advocating. I get that it polls well but the Russia thing does not matter. Once it stops being daily news coverage those numbers are guaranteed to drop down. If it actually did matter then Trump wouldn't have been president. People were willing to overlook extremely obvious collusion because there is no direct, tangible consequence of our president being a Russian puppet. We can imagine all sorts of scenarios but ultimately everyone will come to their own conclusion about what that actually means. Most of the time it won't be as important as food, shelter, and money in your pocket. On the other hand, heavy infrastructure spending and a promise to bring back jobs is something that has actual meaning to people. So does medicare for all, 15 bucks an hour, etc. The Democrats need to message around things that people can understand, not nebulous concepts like "our president is incompetent lol" or "our president is a traitor" and assuming all voters will arrive at the same conclusion.
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# ? Feb 24, 2017 18:59 |
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# ? Jun 10, 2024 10:56 |
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nachos posted:I get that it polls well but the Russia thing does not matter. Once it stops being daily news coverage those numbers are guaranteed to drop down. If it actually did matter then Trump wouldn't have been president. People were willing to overlook extremely obvious collusion because there is no direct, tangible consequence of our president being a Russian puppet. We can imagine all sorts of scenarios but ultimately everyone will come to their own conclusion about what that actually means. Most of the time it won't be as important as food, shelter, and money in your pocket. Medicare for All was a bad policy and we need to stop saying it's something we should advocate for.
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# ? Feb 24, 2017 19:00 |