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MariusLecter posted:After watching a theory video on a 'what if' the Horus heresy traitor legions swapped around with loyalist legion counterparts I'd love it if somehow the Space wolves went traitor and the World eaters were loyalist. Someone needs to go read the Dornian Heresy.
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Feb 25, 2017 17:09
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How about the Roboutian Heresy?
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Feb 25, 2017 17:50
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Isn't that the primary timeline?
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Feb 25, 2017 18:06
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Cythereal posted:Or if the Emperor had sent the War Hounds to save Angron and his slave army. Maybe he would've remained loyal through the Heresy, but the Butcher's Nails broke Angron. Even if his army had survived, even if the slave uprising had been successful, with the Nails in it's just a matter of time before something goes wrong.
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Feb 25, 2017 18:33
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Guy Goodbody posted:Maybe he would've remained loyal through the Heresy, but the Butcher's Nails broke Angron. Even if his army had survived, even if the slave uprising had been successful, with the Nails in it's just a matter of time before something goes wrong. Even so, he was in not completely terrible shape up until the Heresy. Wouldn't have been out of character for the Emperor to put Angron into stasis as his "in case of emergency, break glass" backup, or sent him first onto the traitor flagship at the finale of Terra. Then again, supposing a loyalist Angron during the Heresy requires the Emperor to be less pragmatic and more practical, as does loyalist Perturabo. Those two hated the Emperor and the Imperium on an ideological basis, they saw exactly how terrible the Imperium was and what an absolute tyrant the Emperor was, and wanted nothing to do with being space Nazis.
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Feb 25, 2017 18:52
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I haven't read enough HH from Perturabo's point of view but what's his deal anyway? From the novellas I've read he seems like a monumental dick to his own sons and a profound dufus when it came to the Imperial Fists since Alexis Polux would have destroyed Perturabo's fleet at Phall. And all Angron wanted is to be free as a bird. Nothing the Emperor did short of making him Warmaster and allowing him to rampage across the galaxy would have appeased him or kept him loyal in any alternate universe. AndyElusive fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Feb 25, 2017 |
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Feb 25, 2017 20:08
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Cythereal posted:Then again, supposing a loyalist Angron during the Heresy requires the Emperor to be less pragmatic and more practical, as does loyalist Perturabo. Those two hated the Emperor and the Imperium on an ideological basis, they saw exactly how terrible the Imperium was and what an absolute tyrant the Emperor was, and wanted nothing to do with being space Nazis. Angron was mad at the emperor because he made him fail his army and live. The Emperor teleported Angron out right before the climactic last stand, so all of his followers were killed but Angron was denied the right to die with them. He was forced to stay alive in his hellish existence, and he was forced to be a coward who failed the only people he cared about. If the Emperor had sent the War Hounds down, or even come down himself, and fought the slavers alongside Angron, Angron would've been loyal. The problem is that the Nails completely hosed him up, and any timeline where he has the Nails ends badly. Maybe he remains loyal to the Emperor, but he goes crazy and starts slaughtering loyalist worlds because he just can't control himself AndyElusive posted:I haven't read enough HH from Perturabo's point of view but what's his deal anyway? From the novellas I've read he seems like a monumental dick to his own sons and a profound dufus when it came to the Imperial Fists since Alexis Polux would have destroyed Perturabo's fleet at Phall. Perturabo just wants the Emperoer to admit that he's the smartest boy in class
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Feb 25, 2017 20:13
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Guy Goodbody posted:Angron was mad at the emperor because he made him fail his army and live. The Emperor teleported Angron out right before the climactic last stand, so all of his followers were killed but Angron was denied the right to die with them. He was forced to stay alive in his hellish existence, and he was forced to be a coward who failed the only people he cared about. If the Emperor had sent the War Hounds down, or even come down himself, and fought the slavers alongside Angron, Angron would've been loyal. The problem is that the Nails completely hosed him up, and any timeline where he has the Nails ends badly. Maybe he remains loyal to the Emperor, but he goes crazy and starts slaughtering loyalist worlds because he just can't control himself I see this said a lot, that if the Emperor had just sent the War Hounds to back up Angron at his last stand then maybe Angron would have been greatful. Or if the Emperor had allowed his gladiator friends to join the Astartes he would have remained loyal. But yeah, like you said, there's the issue with the Butcher's Nails. They don't let Angron feel anything positive from any other emotion than anger so it's more likely that Angron would have been just as peeved that he was denied that last stand by being rescued or that had he been saved with his friends they would have rejected the Imperium and would have been killed anyway. At best, maybe he would have an honor guard that he didn't hate. Either way I think betrayal was and is always in Angrons future. Guy Goodbody posted:Perturabo just wants the Emperoer to admit that he's the smartest boy in class Everyone knows that's The Crimson Nerd.
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Feb 25, 2017 20:28
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Guy Goodbody posted:Angron was mad at the emperor because he made him fail his army and live. The Emperor teleported Angron out right before the climactic last stand, so all of his followers were killed but Angron was denied the right to die with them. He was forced to stay alive in his hellish existence, and he was forced to be a coward who failed the only people he cared about. If the Emperor had sent the War Hounds down, or even come down himself, and fought the slavers alongside Angron, Angron would've been loyal. The problem is that the Nails completely hosed him up, and any timeline where he has the Nails ends badly. Maybe he remains loyal to the Emperor, but he goes crazy and starts slaughtering loyalist worlds because he just can't control himself I don't think the emperor having helped him at one point would have kept angron loyal. He saw the tyranny he fought against within all aspects of Nucirean society; that's why it had to burn. The emperium is all to similar and angron says as much when he rants at gulliman while they fight: "What would you know of struggle, Perfect Son? When have you fought against the mutilation of your mind? When have you had to do anything more than tally compliances and polish your armour?" [...] "The people of your world named you Great One. The people of mine called me Slave. Which one of us landed on a paradise of civilization to be raised by a foster father, Roboute? Which one of us was given armies to lead after training in the halls of the Macraggian high-riders? Which one of us inherited a strong, cultured kingdom? And which one of us had to rise up against a kingdom with nothing but a horde of starving slaves? Which one of us was a child enslaved on a world of monsters, with his brain cut up by carving knives? Listen to your blue-clad wretches yelling of courage and honour, courage and honour, courage and honour. Do you even know the meaning of those words? Courage is fighting the kingdom which enslaves you, no matter that their armies outnumber yours by ten-thousand to one. You know nothing of courage. Honour is resisting a tyrant when all others suckle and grow fat on the hypocrisy he feeds them. You know nothing of honour." - Angron Being part of that monolithic system angron feels like the emperium made him what he hated the most: spreading the very oppression he fought against and despises. He is the Betrayer in the title, because the emperor made him betray all he ever fought for: Freedom
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Feb 25, 2017 20:50
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Pyrolocutus posted:I ended up snagging Silent War, Path of Heaven, and Praetorian of Dorn to get back into the HH - PoH and PoD mostly because I think Chris Wraight and John French are among the better writers BL has. Path of Heaven had a really weird pace I thought. Was cool to see a conclusion to Torgun and Shiban. With the blatant foreshadowing in Scars, I thought I had it all figured out, but was happy to be surprised. Outside of the weird pace, PoH had so many moments that I thought were so loving cool. There's a passage where Eidolon teleports to the surface at the battle of the Kalium gate, and after all the build-up of his Kakophoni and his sonic device implant thingy, the chapter simply ends with: "And then the Lord Commander screamed."  Or the whole description of the station with the dark glass device in the middle of the massive warp rift. I've barely ever felt like I could see a described scenery so well and got an actual eerie feeling from it. Or the badass way that Torghun and his sayar-whatever-buddies go out. Or the Thousand Sons dude that is attached to the Scars. Just so many really cool moments. Compared to the beautifully visual descriptions in that book, the whole portrayal of the webway or throne room in Master of Mankind was really a little underwhelming. Speaking of Master of Mankind, I like when I'm still somehow surprised by plot developments that I should see coming because I know the entire 40K background. I should have seen the whole thing of the "Unspoken Sanction" coming from a mile away, what with the constant foreshadowing of the psyker-kid being abducted from its world, but it still surprised me, and then I went "Oh, that's so loving cool." Digging Eisenhorn so far. I'm thinking this Locke gentleman may not be entirely kosher at all.
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Feb 25, 2017 21:37
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So what's worth reading after going through ADB, Cain, Storm of Iron and Watson's Space Marine? Assuming one doesn't like Abnett that is.
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Feb 25, 2017 22:43
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Thousand Sons Prospero Burns Legion of the Damned Eye of Terror is old school but real good. Reads like a DnD campaign Inquisition War Did you read Helsreach and ADBS grey knight book? Of Mars series real good too Waroduce fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Feb 25, 2017 |
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Feb 25, 2017 23:47
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I keep forgetting to ask, but I was reading Legion a couple weeks ago and Grammaticus communicates with his Cabal handler through reflective surfaces, calling them "flects." Is there any connection to the flects from Ravenor or is it just a case of Abnett reusing the term for something different?
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Feb 26, 2017 01:08
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SRM posted:gently caress you for making me verify my memory of this poo poo book but here goes: That just seems like a nice nod to Dune. Not that Frank Herbert wasn't a seriously messed up in his views on women. But homages to other fantasy worlds is something WH40K needs more of, not less. Especially nowadays so I'll take what I can get.
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Feb 26, 2017 01:25
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bango skank posted:I keep forgetting to ask, but I was reading Legion a couple weeks ago and Grammaticus communicates with his Cabal handler through reflective surfaces, calling them "flects." Is there any connection to the flects from Ravenor or is it just a case of Abnett reusing the term for something different? I kinda doubt it. If I recall correctly, Grammaticus called the process "flecting", not the individual surfaces themselves. It seemed to me more like a convenience abbreviation than a nod to Ravenor. The timing would also be weird since the flects in Ravenor were from some planet that had been lost in the warp, and they were the shards of some crystal citadel from that world, all of which would have happened 10k years after the early events of the Heresy like Calth.
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Feb 26, 2017 01:34
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Kharn_The_Betrayer posted:Being part of that monolithic system angron feels like the emperium made him what he hated the most: spreading the very oppression he fought against and despises. He is the Betrayer in the title, because the emperor made him betray all he ever fought for: Freedom One of the best things about Betrayer is that nearly every single character, other than Kharn and Argal Tal, in it is a Betrayer.
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Feb 26, 2017 07:08
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Waroduce posted:Thousand Sons Yeah, I read Helsreach and the GK book. Didn't care too much for either, though the GK one was better for having some Space Wolves in it as well as inquisitor whatshername. The Templars and Knights just came across as unlikeable weirdos, which is odd considering that ADB can turn mass-murdering traitor marines into compelling characters. I'll give those recommendations a try, thanks.
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Feb 26, 2017 15:36
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Duzzy Funlop posted:I kinda doubt it. If I recall correctly, Grammaticus called the process "flecting", not the individual surfaces themselves. It seemed to me more like a convenience abbreviation than a nod to Ravenor. Grammaticus is using a reflective surface to communicate via astrotelepathy through the warp. The flects described in Ravenor are any reflective surface that was retrieved from the Mergent Worlds which had only recently come out of a several hundred year warp storm. That's all the drug is in Ravenor, shattered mirrors or glass retrieved from a world that's been immersed in the warp for several hundred years; somewhere in that trilogy it's mentioned that entire glass panes are used to trip balls at high society parties on the hiveworlds. It's also why every once in a while a person takes a "look" and their eyes melt and their head explodes, a reflective surface will have seen some poo poo after so long on a world in the warp  .So I'd say there's some tie together and Abnett didn't just use the word again out of forgetting he'd already used it previously.
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Feb 26, 2017 17:14
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when did the rest of the Imperium learn about the throne? I was under the impression that it was a secret until after the Heresy? I'm reading Pharos and one of the smurfs said "By the Throne". Was the throne common knowledge?
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Feb 27, 2017 02:51
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Isn't the throne the astronomican?
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Feb 27, 2017 03:07
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Sandweed posted:Isn't the throne the astronomican? my understanding is they are not the same construct. they are unique things that interact with each other
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Feb 27, 2017 03:30
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Waroduce posted:when did the rest of the Imperium learn about the throne? I was under the impression that it was a secret until after the Heresy? I'm reading Pharos and one of the smurfs said "By the Throne". Was the throne common knowledge? I think it's just a writer didn't think about it and the editor didn't catch it. There's a pre-Heresy story that features a Iron Hand whispering activation rites to his bolter.
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Feb 27, 2017 03:36
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I'm traveling alot for work so me and my kindle are real tight right now. I've read a bunch of different compendiums recently and I struggled through the opening portion of Pharos. The NL just hung up after asking for the planets surrender and the scouts are on the ground running around so hopefully it becomes a bit more engaging. I've always like the NLs so hopes are high but most of my exposure is through the trilogy. Got path of heaven or whatever and Prateorian of Dorn lined up next.
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Feb 27, 2017 04:33
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bloom posted:Yeah, I read Helsreach and the GK book. Didn't care too much for either, though the GK one was better for having some Space Wolves in it as well as inquisitor whatshername. The Templars and Knights just came across as unlikeable weirdos, which is odd considering that ADB can turn mass-murdering traitor marines into compelling characters.
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Feb 27, 2017 17:02
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Waroduce posted:when did the rest of the Imperium learn about the throne? I was under the impression that it was a secret until after the Heresy? I'm reading Pharos and one of the smurfs said "By the Throne". Was the throne common knowledge? There's a couple of anachronisms like that in the Heresy series that don't make much sense. I think the only way to explain it in-universe is that even pre-Heresy Terra is sometimes called the Throneworld since it's the seat of the Imperium, so it's just like saying "By Terra" or whatever. Guy Goodbody posted:I think it's just a writer didn't think about it and the editor didn't catch it. There's a pre-Heresy story that features a Iron Hand whispering activation rites to his bolter. Eh, that's not too bad. Activation rites were still a thing in the Mechanicum pre-Heresy, even if less widespread.
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Feb 27, 2017 17:21
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bloom posted:The Templars and Knights just came across as unlikeable weirdos, which is odd considering that ADB can turn mass-murdering traitor marines into compelling characters. Like SRM said, this was intentional. You have to remember, the 30K Marines that he writes (i.e. Night Lords) are very different from the "taken as a a preschooler" programmed and conditioned abominations that are 40K Marines. SMs are supposed to be weirdly proportioned, horse-faced monsters with no understanding of what relationships (or humanity in general) are like.
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Feb 27, 2017 17:31
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Mega-autist space marines are my favorite. It just fits their theme perfectly. Hyperion and grimaldus are quite different though. One is a powerful psychic with a keen curiosity that compels him to try and understand the human condition, but failing utterly because of how his mind has been enginered. The other is a chaplain of arguably the most intensely fanatical chapter which makes him the the head autist in an army of autists and makes no attempt to deviate from his conditioning.
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Feb 27, 2017 17:37
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berzerkmonkey posted:Like SRM said, this was intentional. You have to remember, the 30K Marines that he writes (i.e. Night Lords) are very different from the "taken as a a preschooler" programmed and conditioned abominations that are 40K Marines. SMs are supposed to be weirdly proportioned, horse-faced monsters with no understanding of what relationships (or humanity in general) are like. One of my favorite moments in a 40k book is when Bjorn calls a woman pretty and it just confuses the other Space Marines
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Feb 27, 2017 17:45
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That's interesting about them being deliberately autistic and does help make some sense. Out of the two I preferred Hyperion because his interactions with the inquisitor and her followers showed that he was trying (and failing) to understand humans. Grimaldus on the other hand felt kinda inconsistent. He'd have the occasional flash of humanity in giving inspirational speeches and laughing at the stormtrooper who cracked a joke at him, but would then go right back to being disgusted at fleeing civilians and calling Salamanders pussies for caring about them. IMHO it would've worked better if he'd been in full rear end in a top hat mode through the whole book. Might be because Helsreach is far more focused on the action and doesn't really spend time developing the characters.
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Feb 27, 2017 18:18
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rocket_Magnet posted:It's also why every once in a while a person takes a "look" and their eyes melt and their head explodes, a reflective surface will have seen some poo poo after so long on a world in the warp Or something from the warp is looking back at you, which would be worse. And happened at least once int he Ravener trilogy.
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Feb 27, 2017 18:25
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bloom posted:That's interesting about them being deliberately autistic and does help make some sense. Helsreach is definitely more focused on the action, as that's kinda the Space Marine Battles series' MO, but I felt like his speeches were just him going through the motions and doing his job. I feel like I remember him giving a big speech then just kind of sulking away but it's been a while.
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Feb 27, 2017 18:36
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Shazaminator posted:There's a couple of anachronisms like that in the Heresy series that don't make much sense. I think the only way to explain it in-universe is that even pre-Heresy Terra is sometimes called the Throneworld since it's the seat of the Imperium, so it's just like saying "By Terra" or whatever. Yeah I was just coming here to post about this. I'm on Book 3 of HH and they repeatedly say "Throne!" when in shock and I'm all "Wtf? You guys don't know about the Golden Throne yet!"
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Feb 27, 2017 18:45
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pubic works project posted:Yeah I was just coming here to post about this. I'm on Book 3 of HH and they repeatedly say "Throne!" when in shock and I'm all "Wtf? You guys don't know about the Golden Throne yet!" Yeah, this happens more than it should. I also found it weird when they refer to anything against the Emperor as "heretical" as the whole point of the crusade is to stamp out religion and worship of gods. It becomes really apparent later on when it's clear that some HH books are just re-jigged 40k stories to get sales  Then again, the sperg in me was annoyed when Eisenhorn makes an offhand reference to "the foul tyranid" and then years later (minor Ravenor spoiler) Ravenor encounters the great devourer years before they're known to the Imperium via chaos warp door voodoo witchery
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Feb 27, 2017 19:10
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Yo, I don't know about you guys, but in my understanding, rulers and monarchs tend to sit on thrones. Iirc, all of the primarchs have some form of oversized throne in their personal or audience chambers, and I'm fairly sure I heard throneworld or throneroom way before poo poo went south heresy-wise. On top of that, in the secular imperium, I'd assume you'd get away with saying "throne" under your breath more likely (because it's a glorified chair) than the emperor worship of the wordbearers and such.
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Feb 27, 2017 19:34
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I can't wait to see how papa smurf interacts w the Ecclesiarchy Knowing gw tho it'll be handled by some 3rd rate writer and totally glossed over if not ignored completely
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Feb 27, 2017 21:09
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Waroduce posted:I can't wait to see how papa smurf interacts w the Ecclesiarchy It's not interesting. More bolter porn!
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Feb 27, 2017 22:06
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Waroduce posted:I can't wait to see how papa smurf interacts w the Ecclesiarchy But what fake edit
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Feb 27, 2017 22:07
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Waroduce posted:I can't wait to see how papa smurf interacts w the Ecclesiarchy Theoretical: There should be no Ecclesiarchy Practical: We're all hosed anyway - let's roll with this
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Feb 27, 2017 22:08
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bloom posted:Grimaldus on the other hand felt kinda inconsistent. He'd have the occasional flash of humanity in giving inspirational speeches and laughing at the stormtrooper who cracked a joke at him, but would then go right back to being disgusted at fleeing civilians and calling Salamanders pussies for caring about them. IMHO it would've worked better if he'd been in full rear end in a top hat mode through the whole book. It makes perfect sense for him to consider non-combatants/people running away as repulsive. And displays of concern for such people a sign of weakness. It doesn't contradict him interacting positively with people who do their duty/serve a military purpose at all.
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Feb 27, 2017 22:48
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Isn't Terra considered the "Throne World of the Imperium" even during the Great Crusade and into the Horus Heresy eras? If so, it would make sense to utter "throne" under your breath during a particularly dire moment in the 30th millennium.
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Feb 28, 2017 01:13
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