Edible Hat posted:

So, is installing Ellison a mere '"symbolic gesture" or will the Perez win lead to the permanent installation of corporate stooges in key positions of the Democratic Party's apparatus? Maybe you should move on, fight for leftist candidates in the primaries, and not believe that potential for a worldwide socialist revolution has collapsed because your preferred candidate is not in a "symbolic" role.

WampaLord posted:

The DNC chair isn't the top floor.

Edible Hat posted:

I can speak for myself: I supported Ellison in this race and have followed his career since his House campaign in 2006 and I'm not pissed off. Additionally, I can't imagine any Ellison supporter caring about this beyond next week or beyond, to the 2018 midterm. (I can also mention the people who would have been pissed off if Ellison had won, like the ADF.)

Condiv posted:

it's the same thing bernie tried to do, cleaning up after the dems lovely choices. too bad it won't be enough this time

if the centrists were actually unified with us, it might be different, but this vote shows they aren't

Fulchrum posted:

It's amazing how your definition of "like peers" actually means 'give us everything, don't even talk back, have absolutely no say and be blamed for everything bad ever."

JeffersonClay posted:

Shorter Richard Nixon: why are the democrats so mad about me breaking into the watergate if the poo poo we stole wasn't true.

Kilroy posted:

Your side has really lost the plot, you know? The left is both irrelevant electorally and responsible for Hillary's loss. Ellison and Perez would perform nearly identically as chairman, but it's Very Important that Perez win. Leftists don't get involved and deserve to be shut out of power, and when you block our candidates and undermine our positions we're just ineffectual whiners if we complain.

Best of luck for 2018. You're really, really going to need it.

Argas posted:

Progress doesn't get made by giving up.

readingatwork posted:

Is it really so unreasonable to expect a party to at least pretend to care about you if they're going to demand your vote like it was their God damned birthright? If they won't even make symbolic gestures to people like me why should I make any effort to support them in turn?

readingatwork posted:

Is it really so unreasonable to expect a party to at least pretend to care about you if they're going to demand your vote like it was their God damned birthright? If they won't even make symbolic gestures to people like me why should I make any effort to support them in turn?

Main Paineframe posted:

They don't care. The party thinks there are more important demographics to win right now than "dedicated leftists". That's the secret. The Democratic Party is more complicated than just "the left" and "the center". There are certainly important demographics that voted for Bernie that the Dems are worried about losing, but "leftists" aren't one of them. That's why they didn't bother to throw a bone to progressives.

Main Paineframe posted:

They don't care. The party thinks there are more important demographics to win right now than "dedicated leftists". That's the secret. The Democratic Party is more complicated than just "the left" and "the center". There are certainly important demographics that voted for Bernie that the Dems are worried about losing, but "leftists" aren't one of them. That's why they didn't bother to throw a bone to progressives.

Condiv posted:

oh? someone needs to tell the dems that fast!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG7w3Oey3xs

Probably Magic posted:

Trump won by campaigning to literally the absolute fringe of his base despite being a Hollywood socialite. Bush barely won in 2000 by running as a compromiser, then won solidly by, again, appealing to the base.

Going for your base works, so why are the Dems afraid of it.

Foreploy posted:

No, not at all. I think it's a good thing to be vocal and agitate. Staying involved and constantly present is how you turn an enormous party operation like the DNC towards your preferred heading.

All I'm saying is that it's a pretty clear admission that symbolism and identity are hugely motivating forces in politics to it can't be an error for Clinton to have played "identity politics", despite what the Sanders wing often argues; the problem is she played it poorly, not that she played it at all.

Probably Magic posted:

Trump won by campaigning to literally the absolute fringe of his base despite being a Hollywood socialite. Bush barely won in 2000 by running as a compromiser, then won solidly by, again, appealing to the base.

Going for your base works, so why are the Dems afraid of it.

Emanuel Collective posted:

close and gas this dumb thread

fsif posted:

WampaLord posted:

They think their base is only Clintonites/Third Way/New Dems/whatever the term is now.

Fulchrum posted:

And Romney and McCain were just so very liberal and trying to reach across the aisle?

Main Paineframe posted:

They don't care. The party thinks there are more important demographics to win right now than "dedicated leftists". That's the secret. The Democratic Party is more complicated than just "the left" and "the center". There are certainly important demographics that voted for Bernie that the Dems are worried about losing, but "leftists" aren't one of them. That's why they didn't bother to throw a bone to progressives.

Probably Magic posted:

Trump won by campaigning to literally the absolute fringe of his base despite being a Hollywood socialite. Bush barely won in 2000 by running as a compromiser, then won solidly by, again, appealing to the base.

Going for your base works, so why are the Dems afraid of it.

Argas posted:

Progress doesn't get made by giving up. Every single step of progress is made against opponents just as driven as you and probably more resourceful than you. We see it every time regressive policies get swept back in. But if you give up, progress doesn't get made. It is understandable why some people give up and go home. But if they're just done, then they can retire quietly instead of trying to drag down others with them. The fight against regressives needs to keep going on, whether it's small steps made by talking to friends and strangers and changing their minds, or big steps with leaders and policies.

Edible Hat posted:

I don't disagree. That's why I'm saying that throwing up your hands and saying that organized leftism is done in America because Ellison lost is a destructive mindset.

Main Paineframe posted:

They don't care. The party thinks there are more important demographics to win right now than "dedicated leftists". That's the secret. The Democratic Party is more complicated than just "the left" and "the center". There are certainly important demographics that voted for Bernie that the Dems are worried about losing, but "leftists" aren't one of them. That's why they didn't bother to throw a bone to progressives.

Edible Hat posted:

I don't disagree. That's why I'm saying that throwing up your hands and saying that organized leftism is done in America because Ellison lost is a destructive mindset.

quote:

Cutter: So I don’t buy into we need to move left, we need to move right. We just need to be relevant to them, and there’s room in the party for all different types of specific policies. But we have to agree that we have to talk about things that matter to them.

Druke: So on the issues, there’s no change? From health care to immigration to trade, is there anything in terms of issues that you would advise the Democratic Party, “Rethink this”?

Cutter: Tell me where you’re coming from in the question. Give me something specific.

Druke: Here’s an example: We’ve talked to progressives as part of this series, and they said: “The [Affordable Care Act] was a little misguided all along. We should have pushed more for single payer, and that’s what we’re going to be pushing for going forward.” Do you think a move like that on the part of the Democratic Party would be misguided?

Cutter: There’s lots of people out there, including mainstream health care experts, who believe we need to ultimately get to a single-payer system. And that’s a legitimate debate to have, but I think if you’re talking about appealing to voters, who are also everyday Americans, that’s not what they’re thinking about. They’re not sitting back and thinking, “God, I really wish I had single payer.” They’re wondering how they’re going to pay for their health care. So that’s a policy discussion. That’s not a discussion about where the Democratic Party needs to be politically.

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

Feingold also outspent Johnson.

Probably Magic posted:

...you know money was stolen during that, right?

So Deep Throat leaking the truth would've been bad news if he were paid by Russians to do it?

Lightning Knight posted:

And what was that "fake ideology?"

You can keep on posturing about how you're the only real leftist or whatever, it's cute.

Edible Hat posted:

I don't disagree. That's why I'm saying that throwing up your hands and saying that organized leftism is done in America because Ellison lost is a destructive mindset.

Probably Magic posted:

This is like the Republicans saying that Romney appealing to William F Buckley Republicans is a winning strategy, they just need to execute it with less foreign intervention from, I dunno, China.


From a diehard Republican stance, extremely, yes? I mean, I know listening to Republican talking heads is painful to listen, it is for me too, but they regularly looked down on those two as RINOs.

readingatwork posted:

If that's the way they want to play it then fine I guess? However if they're really going to dump the left in favor of chasing Republican votes then they don't have the right to bitch and moan when the left dumps them in turn.

Fulchrum posted:

Considering they gave Ellisson a loving position and "leftists" are acting like the DNC just executed him live on stage while cackling, I think the reason they aren't throwing them a bone is pretty clear.

Confounding Factor posted:

Cutter: So I don’t buy into we need to move left, we need to move right. We just need to be relevant to them, and there’s room in the party for all different types of specific policies. But we have to agree that we have to talk about things that matter to them.

Druke: So on the issues, there’s no change? From health care to immigration to trade, is there anything in terms of issues that you would advise the Democratic Party, “Rethink this”?

Cutter: Tell me where you’re coming from in the question. Give me something specific.

Druke: Here’s an example: We’ve talked to progressives as part of this series, and they said: “The [Affordable Care Act] was a little misguided all along. We should have pushed more for single payer, and that’s what we’re going to be pushing for going forward.” Do you think a move like that on the part of the Democratic Party would be misguided?

Cutter: There’s lots of people out there, including mainstream health care experts, who believe we need to ultimately get to a single-payer system. And that’s a legitimate debate to have, but I think if you’re talking about appealing to voters, who are also everyday Americans, that’s not what they’re thinking about. They’re not sitting back and thinking, “God, I really wish I had single payer.” They’re wondering how they’re going to pay for their health care. So that’s a policy discussion. That’s not a discussion about where the Democratic Party needs to be politically.

JeffersonClay posted:

While stealing money is bad, the real issue in the watergate scandal was stealing documents and bugging the phones-- illegally acquiring confidential information is archetypal ratfucking. Stop falling for it.

readingatwork posted:

If that's the way they want to play it then fine I guess? However if they're really going to dump the left in favor of chasing Republican votes then they don't have the right to bitch and moan when the left dumps them in turn.

Lightning Knight posted:

I'm fairly sure the ideal Democratic base is the working poor and lower middle class blue collar types in urban areas, and that "progressives," which in our context means overwhelmingly younger and college educated people, aren't being factored in because we already don't vote in large numbers to begin with.

The voters they shed in the Midwest aren't generally self-identified ideological progressives, and I think there's a huge blind spot on SA in assuming that we, I.e. College educated political nerds in their 20s-early 30s are "the base" when we are not, numerically.

Which is to say "I'm taking my ball and going home" doesn't work for people like most of us in this thread because statistically people like us already overwhelmingly don't vote.

Main Paineframe posted:

They don't care. The party thinks there are more important demographics to win right now than "dedicated leftists". That's the secret. The Democratic Party is more complicated than just "the left" and "the center". There are certainly important demographics that voted for Bernie that the Dems are worried about losing, but "leftists" aren't one of them. That's why they didn't bother to throw a bone to progressives.

Dead Cosmonaut posted:

At the core of her campaign were polling and analytics which served as this self contained feedback loop inside of a self contained anechoic chamber of false information which was then fed out to the public in snippets. Everything from her tweets to the amount of seconds she would spend on policy platforms. If you ask a Clinton supporter about how her lackluster economic policies, they’d probably point to some meaningless statistic about the amount of time she blurted out a robot speech that usually ended with “go to my website”, where you would get a bombarded with a list of policies (some contradicting) arranged in neatly in alphabetical order with no real central message or priority given to one over the other. She even copy/pasted her 2008 “Farmers for Hillary” campaign to attract rural voters as if she suspected they were none the wiser.

Since her entire campaign, and thus her political message, were run on fake data, it is appropriate to call it a fake political ideology.

WampaLord posted:

No one is doing that, many of us are now realizing we can't rely on the Democratic party for help with our fight.

Lightning Knight posted:

Which is to say "I'm taking my ball and going home" doesn't work for people like most of us in this thread because statistically people like us already overwhelmingly don't vote.

Confounding Factor posted:

Good grief.