|
Lightning Knight posted:I don't think you can reasonably demonstrate that in general, ads are so ineffective that we could suffice buying consistently, substantially less ads than the opposition party. they are if we have to run away from our party's message in them, which is the problem with corporate funded ads for the dem party. how can you say our ads are gonna be effective if we can't even do basic things like attacking trump for being a poo poo CEO and bad for the people cause it might offend our business donors.
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 23:15 |
|
|
Dead Cosmonaut posted:Good luck in 2020. I’m sure you have your head on straight and it won’t be a disaster for the Dems. You're such a spineless piece of poo poo. Also lol at the guy who thinks that political correctness is why the Democratic Party won't turn left admitting to being an accelerationist, sure are showing that credibility on minority issues when you hope they get extra hosed to spite people you disagree with. quote:they are if we have to run away from our party's message in them, which is the problem with corporate funded ads for the dem party. how can you say our ads are gonna be effective if we can't even do basic things like attacking trump for being a poo poo CEO and bad for the people cause it might offend our business donors. They did attack Trump on being a poo poo CEO, especially hammering him on his screwing over of contractors and employees. It just didn't matter because that didn't fit into the narrative. I think you're arguing a principle versus the practical, and I don't think there's any meaningful agreement to be found if we're not even arguing the same things.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:09
|
|
|
Majorian posted:
You're right, I forgot that time I made up him voting against legalizing millions of undocumented people, cosponsoring a bill allowing the dumping of nuclear waste in a poor Latinx community in Texas, so I guess I should upgrade sitting on his rear end to being actively malevolent. That's my bad. 
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:11
|
|
if you think this is what really happened.
|
Harrow posted:I can't bring myself to look: exactly how big of a meltdown are the Bernie-only types having right now?
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:11
|
|
|
Lightning Knight posted:You keep voting Democrat because you know that third parties that presently exist aren't going anywhere soon enough to matter and the Republicans are clearly worse. I agree with this post.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:12
|
|
|
Dead Cosmonaut posted:I kind of want Trump to stick around for 8 years now because every second he spends in office destroys your credibility. Wishing more misery upon poor people is a terrible way to advocate for left-wing causes, fyi.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:12
|
|
|
stone cold posted:You're right, I forgot that time I made up him voting against legalizing millions of undocumented people, cosponsoring a bill allowing the dumping of nuclear waste in a poor Latinx community in Texas, so I guess I should upgrade sitting on his rear end to being actively malevolent. So where does Clinton stand, in your view, if Sanders is actively malevolent on racial issues?
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:13
|
|
|
stone cold posted:I'm also a woman, and maybe we should turn on our fellow women who voted for the orange pig who wants us to revert to chattel, and keep agitating, instead. That wasn't remotely what she said.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:13
|
|
|
Majorian posted:
Except that the only people he has to win votes from are the DNC members, so the only way the left can "hold him accountable" is if they take a bunch of DNC seats, and that's not going to happen if they swear off the Democrats in disgust. Kilroy posted:You're not wrong, but it's mostly because you've stated a tautology, or very nearly one. Yes, most Democratic leadership is elected, and so the people voting for chair are the ones clever or fortunate enough (in terms of district, etc) to hold on to their office while the Democrats have been getting their asses kicked up and down the ballot for the last decade. If they continue to presume they know a thing or two about winning elections even as their party is in its weakest position in perhaps 100 years, then we are in deep poo poo. Will they just keep thinking that until there aren't any of them left? If leftists are so much better at winning elections, why haven't they won all the elections and taken over the party yet? If the choice is between having a centrist Dem in the seat or a right-wing Republican, that doesn't sound so good for leftists. I'm sick of hearing that centrists are terrible losers who can't win elections while leftists are wonderful election geniuses with highly motivated supporters, when the reality is that the Dems have a lot of centrists who've won a lot of elections and a few leftists who've won a few elections. Sure, centrists have lost seats. So have progressives. Instead of whining that the centrists should listen to the left because they lost once after decades of winning, why doesn't the left go out and beat the centrists? Election after election, the left has promised that next time, next time, they'll win a bunch of seats - you'll see! You'll see, you mean old centrists! I'd really like that to happen, and I am loving sick of the left being all talk.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:14
|
|
|
Majorian posted:So where does Clinton stand, in your view, if Sanders is actively malevolent on racial issues? Clinton actually took the time to talk to POC communities, in case you forgot how big they broke for her? Sorry your brain broke 
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:14
|
|
|
Lightning Knight posted:They did attack Trump on being a poo poo CEO, especially hammering him on his screwing over of contractors and employees. It just didn't matter because that didn't fit into the narrative. i guess i am, because i will not accept the dems in the current form on principle. and i think us sacrificing our priniciples to please corporate donors is as good as the death of the party. it also leads to a death spiral where we are more and more reliant on corps for donations since our base is being ground to dust by our pro-corporate policies. maybe you think the dems can be more republican and deserve votes under a practical, lesser-evil based view. but imo, that leads to death, not only for the dems, but for the people they're supposed to represent and protect. Condiv fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Feb 26, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:15
|
|
|
stone cold posted:Clinton actually took the time to talk to POC communities, in case you forgot how big they broke for her? Wait a second, so that somehow negates the policies that she supported in the past? I'm not sure it's my brain that is broke here...
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:15
|
|
|
stone cold posted:Clinton actually took the time to talk to POC communities, in case you forgot how big they broke for her? Clinton actively advocated for bombing in Syria, Libya, and was going to push for bombing in Yemen too, which you earlier callously dismissed as something about Mommy not giving enough cookies or some crap. You're disingenuous to the maximum.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:16
|
|
|
Majorian posted:Wait a second, so that somehow negates the policies that she supported in the past? I'm not sure it's my brain that is broke here... Apparently, since the same people who had the most right to be mad about those policies voted for her rather than her opponent.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:19
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:If leftists are so much better at winning elections, why haven't they won all the elections and taken over the party yet? If the choice is between having a centrist Dem in the seat or a right-wing Republican, that doesn't sound so good for leftists. I'm sick of hearing that centrists are terrible losers who can't win elections while leftists are wonderful election geniuses with highly motivated supporters, when the reality is that the Dems have a lot of centrists who've won a lot of elections and a few leftists who've won a few elections. Sure, centrists have lost seats. So have progressives. Instead of whining that the centrists should listen to the left because they lost once after decades of winning, why doesn't the left go out and beat the centrists? Election after election, the left has promised that next time, next time, they'll win a bunch of seats - you'll see! You'll see, you mean old centrists! I'd really like that to happen, and I am loving sick of the left being all talk. While I don't disagree that a lot of people don't understand the reality of how hard it is to sell leftist policy, I think that framing it as "if the left was so great, why don't they just win already" ignores the structural and systemic reasons why that hasn't happened and is in fact quite hard. Condiv posted:i guess i am, because i will not accept the dems in the current form on principle. and i think us sacrificing our priniciples to please corporate donors is as good as the death of the party. it also leads to a death spiral where we are more and more reliant on corps for donations since our base is being ground to dust by our pro-corporate policies. maybe you think the dems can be more republican and deserve votes under a practical, lesser-evil based view. but imo, that leads to death, not only for the dems, but for the people they're supposed to represent and protect. I don't disagree in principle, I just don't think that the principle matches up to the reality and I don't think that the evidence supports the idea that ads don't matter and could easily be forgone. I would happily back attempts to prove me wrong by progressive candidates tho.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:20
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:Apparently, since the same people who had the most right to be mad about those policies voted for her rather than her opponent. I don't think it's a given that they fully knew her record as a political figure.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:21
|
|
|
Majorian posted:I don't think it's a given that they fully knew her record as a political figure. Why not? If for no other reason than that white 'leftists' have been going on about "superpredators" since the primary. What is it about black people that makes you suspect them of being politically ignorant as a group?
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:24
|
|
|
Lightning Knight posted:You're such a spineless piece of poo poo. Liberals deserve to get smitten after putting such a miserable, incompetent pile of poo poo as their front runner and left the party at their lowest point in a century. It’s the party’s job to find someone worth a drat to run. Even as we speak, the working class are abandoning the the Democrats in droves. There is not going to be any return to normalcy, where parties go back to their respective affairs, after Trump. You’re being straight up delusional for buying into that. I can’t wait to see the excuses you spineless fucks are going to make when you lose Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania yet again.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:24
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:If leftists are so much better at winning elections, why haven't they won all the elections and taken over the party yet? If the choice is between having a centrist Dem in the seat or a right-wing Republican, that doesn't sound so good for leftists. I'm sick of hearing that centrists are terrible losers who can't win elections while leftists are wonderful election geniuses with highly motivated supporters, when the reality is that the Dems have a lot of centrists who've won a lot of elections and a few leftists who've won a few elections. Sure, centrists have lost seats. So have progressives. Instead of whining that the centrists should listen to the left because they lost once after decades of winning, why doesn't the left go out and beat the centrists? Election after election, the left has promised that next time, next time, they'll win a bunch of seats - you'll see! You'll see, you mean old centrists! I'd really like that to happen, and I am loving sick of the left being all talk. You're acting like it isn't the case that historically one of the few things Democrats and Republicans can agree on is that anyone to the left of Bill Clinton needs their throat stepped on forever. Part of the reason the left is fractured and disorganized is that the entire political establishment in Washington has made it a priority. It may be that things are getting bad enough that even that won't be enough, but it remains to be seen. But you're deluding yourself when you say this: Main Paineframe posted:the Dems have a lot of centrists who've won a lot of elections
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:26
|
|
|
Majorian posted:Wait a second, so that somehow negates the policies that she supported in the past? I'm not sure it's my brain that is broke here... Policies....that the black community supported at the time?  Also, remember when we elected Hillary potus in the nineties, I sure remember that because women are the same as their husbands, you see? Probably Magic posted:Clinton actively advocated for bombing in Syria, Libya, and was going to push for bombing in Yemen too, which you earlier callously dismissed as something about Mommy not giving enough cookies or some crap. You're disingenuous to the maximum. Oh no! Not to "the max!" Apropos of nothing.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:26
|
|
|
Dead Cosmonaut posted:Liberals deserve to get smitten after putting such a miserable, incompetent pile of poo poo as their front runner and left the party at their lowest point in a century. It’s the party’s job to find someone worth a drat to run. Oh go gently caress yourself with "I am the true socialist and you're a dirty neoliberal," you don't know a goddamn thing about anybody else in the thread and yet you'd happily posture as the only true Scotsman. You're throwing right hooks at strawmen and it's hilarious. There will be no return to normalcy, no, but the party would be better off if stupid fucks like you who think "political correctness" and not being lovely towards minorities is the real problem got booted. Go vote for Trump next time, it's where you belong as it is.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:26
|
|
|
Lightning Knight posted:I don't disagree in principle, I just don't think that the principle matches up to the reality and I don't think that the evidence supports the idea that ads don't matter and could easily be forgone. I would happily back attempts to prove me wrong by progressive candidates tho. i don't think they're useless, but ads without a good message are drat near useless. and we cannot find a good message because our leadership is near republican-lite by necessity of their donors, while our base is far from it. so we end up with a disenchanted base and stronger republicans https://twitter.com/ZackMaril/status/835660421046624256?ref_src=tw stuff like this is what our corporate buddy-buddying has done. hopefully as a supposedly labor friendly democrat, perez can stop this layoff of dem staffers on such short notice https://twitter.com/ZackMaril/status/835661544570638337
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:27
|
|
|
stone cold posted:Oh no! Not to "the max!" Really showing your ignorance that you think the chief problem with Clinton's foreign policy is drones instead of massive arming in countries of interest and missile strikes, which Clinton was chief propagator for in the Obama cabinet. Could you stop posting like a bad Effectronica clone?
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:28
|
|
|
Nevvy Z posted:Why not? If for no other reason than that white 'leftists' have been going on about "superpredators" since the primary. What is it about black people that makes you suspect them of being politically ignorant as a group? This is a pretty ridiculous assumption on your part. The fact of the matter is, most voters, Democratic or Republican, Sanderista or Clintonista, are fairly low-information, regardless of race.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:28
|
|
|
Stone cold you're not only a bad faith dumbass actively working against party unity and good policy, you're also the least likeable person whose words I've ever read.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:29
|
|
|
Probably Magic posted:Really showing your ignorance that you think the chief problem with Clinton's foreign policy is drones instead of massive arming in countries of interest and missile strikes, which Clinton was chief propagator for in the Obama cabinet. You posted about drone strikes, I responded about drone strikes? Sorry your brain broke and you can't handle St. Bernard's policy positions? Nice knowing you, I guess
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:30
|
|
|
stone cold posted:Policies....that the black community supported at the time? Mmmm, the black community has, uh, soured quite a bit on those policies, I'm afraid.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:30
|
|
|
Jeb! Repetition posted:Stone cold you're not only a bad faith dumbass actively working against party unity and good policy, you're also the least likeable person whose words I've ever read. Your rap sheet is full of homophobia and some  stuff, so I'll take this as a compliment,
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:31
|
|
|
stone cold posted:You posted about drone strikes, I responded about drone strikes? Yeah, we only "drone striked" Libya, Syria, and Yemen. You're not even reading people's responses at this point.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:32
|
|
|
Majorian posted:Mmmm, the black community has, uh, soured quite a bit on those policies, I'm afraid. Remember how Hillary kept supporting those nineties policies? No? It's almost like you're still  over mommy not baking you cookies? 🤔
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:32
|
|
|
stone cold posted:Your rap sheet is full of homophobia and some He's right, though - you're doing a really bad job of facilitating party unity here.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:32
|
|
|
Majorian posted:Mmmm, the black community has, uh, soured quite a bit on those policies, I'm afraid. While true, especially among the younger generations of black people, it's important to point out because the narrative with "superpredators" was "gee that was so awful, and it was manifestly awful at the time, and she's so awful for it" when it was not actually seen as bad at the time and in fact had broad support among the black community. The point is that the superpredators comment was a disingenuous attack against Hillary now, when there were other, more recent and relevant things to attack her for, like support for fracking, aggressive and not always well thought out foreign policy moves, hesitation to embrace BLM, etc., etc.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:33
|
|
|
well, i personally think the democratic party is hosed for a good long while. sure, it was a symbolic election, but that doesn't rob it of its importance. if it was so meaningless then it would have been the perfect bone to throw the progressives. instead the optics of this is just awful. oh well, most people should just assume the dems are gonna disappoint. they've been doing it phenomenally for years and years and years. trump's president and his opposition is as impotent as ever.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:33
|
|
|
Probably Magic posted:Yeah, we only "drone striked" Libya, Syria, and Yemen. You're not even reading people's responses at this point. I take it you aren't either; I'll give you a little hint, since you don't seem to read so good. Sanders was gonna continue drone strikes and found them a useful tool in the US arsenal. Sorry to break it to you,
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:33
|
|
|
stone cold posted:Your rap sheet is full of homophobia and some 90% of my rap sheet is from one thread in C-SPAM where IKs give everybody sixers as a joke, and yours is packed with racism, Dick Cheneying about pedophilia, and my observation that you're not likeable being confirmed; so maybe that's not something you want to bring up.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:34
|
|
|
stone cold posted:I take it you aren't either; I'll give you a little hint, since you don't seem to read so good. ...am I talking to a spambot?
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:34
|
|
|
Jeb! Repetition posted:90% of my rap sheet is from one thread in C-SPAM where IKs give everybody sixers as a joke, and yours is packed with racism, Dick Cheneying about pedophilia, and my observation that you're not likeable being confirmed; so maybe that's not something you want to bring up. Packed with racism? Like.... [citation extremely needed]
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:35
|
|
|
Lightning Knight posted:While true, especially among the younger generations of black people, it's important to point out because the narrative with "superpredators" was "gee that was so awful, and it was manifestly awful at the time, and she's so awful for it" when it was not actually seen as bad at the time and in fact had broad support among the black community. The point is that the superpredators comment was a disingenuous attack against Hillary now, when there were other, more recent and relevant things to attack her for, like support for fracking, aggressive and not always well thought out foreign policy moves, hesitation to embrace BLM, etc., etc.  , and that's why I think it's pretty disingenuous for stone cold to act like the only thing to criticize Clinton's race record on is the superpredators comment.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:37
|
|
|
I've really enjoyed talking with you, LightningKnight, I feel like we've had a sensible conversation tonight.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:38
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 23:15 |
|
|
Hillary clinton did worse with hispanics and afams than obama. The flipping of arizona, georgia and possibly texas didn't happen (in addition to losing florida and NC; the latter was able to elect a dem governor at the same time). The demographic certainty pollsters talked about had far too many assumptions that proved false. Come to think of it, campaigning on the fear of trump while simultaneously polls showed that The Map was a lock for Clinton was a bad combination. People who personally didn't like Clinton, especially in the supposed 'firewall states', probably felt they could safely refrain from holding their nose and voting for clinton since it was already in the bag.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:39
|
|
