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jabby posted:You're gonna have to provide some evidence that many people other than you consider Labour to be supporting hard Brexit, against everything Labour have actually been saying. They ran a three line whip on an unamended article 50 bill and have insisted they will offer no resistance to the process - something you've just been crowing is the best course of action.
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Feb 26, 2017 15:03
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Darth Walrus posted:You can equally say that over half don't mind if they do let Brexit happen. You could. But labour is a pro European party. Labour isn't UKIP.
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Feb 26, 2017 15:03
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Pissflaps posted:They ran a three line whip on an unamended article 50 bill and have insisted they will offer no resistance to the process - something you've just been crowing is the best course of action. This doesn't answer a question that was clearly about public perception. There's no evidence people think Labour backs hard Brexit, which is what you're claiming.
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Feb 26, 2017 15:05
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Pissflaps posted:You could. But labour is a pro European party. Labour isn't UKIP. Then why did over half its voters either endorse letting Brexit through or say they don't know/don't care?
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Feb 26, 2017 15:06
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Darth Walrus posted:Then why did over half its voters either endorse letting Brexit through or say they don't know/don't care? Because theyre not being offered an alternative by the party they vote for.
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Feb 26, 2017 15:07
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jabby posted:This doesn't answer a question that was clearly about public perception. There's no evidence people think Labour backs hard Brexit, which is what you're claiming. So your plan is for Jeremy to pursue a hard Brexit but hope that people don't notice because they can't work out what labour is doing?
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Feb 26, 2017 15:08
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Anyone have figures showing if Labour areas voted for or against Brexit?
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Feb 26, 2017 15:10
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Jesus loving christ, stop arguing with Pissflaps, you cretins.
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Feb 26, 2017 15:12
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learnincurve posted:Anyone have figures showing if Labour areas voted for or against Brexit? Areas as in constituencies? 70% voted Leave.
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Feb 26, 2017 15:13
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kingturnip posted:Jesus loving christ, stop arguing with Pissflaps, you cretins. but he's being disingenuous! if i point this out maybe he'll see the error of his ways!
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Feb 26, 2017 15:13
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Pissflaps posted:So your plan is for Jeremy to pursue a hard Brexit but hope that people don't notice because they can't work out what labour is doing? You're doing a good job of trying to shift the goalposts, but when you're talking about a poll public perception is what matters. I'd be happy to argue that triggering Article 50 in isolation doesn't constitute support for hard Brexit (because it doesn't) but my opinion is less relevant than the public at large. And you have no evidence to back up the assertion that people see Labour as a hard Brexit supporting party. EDIT: You're right guys, Pissflaps is an idiot. Sorry.
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Feb 26, 2017 15:13
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Darth Walrus posted:Areas as in constituencies? 70% voted Leave. Well then I don't understand why people are saying Labour should attempt to thwart Brexit, surely this is just herding the core voter base towards the Tory party.
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Feb 26, 2017 15:21
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learnincurve posted:Well then I don't understand why people are saying Labour should attempt to thwart Brexit, surely this is just herding the core voter base towards the Tory party. A lot of the 70% come from regions that would vote to leave but would rather die than vote Tory. With UKIP imploding a lot of those votes are safe labour even if they oppose Brexit. The issue comes from a lot of the remain 30% where Labour could conceivably lose votes to the Lib Dems who aren't imploding at the moment. But more importantly than all of that, a supermajority of the country supports soft brexit. The labour party should be fighting tooth and nail to get that and unfortunately conceding an unamended Brexit bill is not seen as taking part in that fight. Natural 20 fucked around with this message at 15:30 on Feb 26, 2017 |
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Feb 26, 2017 15:27
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I'm not sure they would anymore you know, Thatcher is dead and the generation effected by the neutering of the unions is dying. The younger generation of northerners hates the EU and London far more than it hates the Tory party.
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Feb 26, 2017 15:31
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learnincurve posted:Well then I don't understand why people are saying Labour should attempt to thwart Brexit, surely this is just herding the core voter base towards the Tory party. Most of those are 'safe seats' where Labour gets about 40% of the vote and the rest is too evenly split between other parties for anyone else to approach that (so, for instance, it might be 20% Conservative, 20% UKIP, 20% Independent). In a referendum, party splits don't matter - all that matters is whether you support one side or the other, so you see Leave wins in seats the Conservatives or UKIP couldn't hope to gain. The problem, of course, is that that vote-split now seems to be eroding as the Conservatives cannibalise UKIP, making them more powerful in the north than they have been in decades. The British left seems to have a fundamental problem at the moment - the electorate is split between two blocs, Labour/Lib Dem and Conservative/UKIP, with little crossover between them (since the Conservatives ate a bunch of Lib Dem voters in 2015, anyway). The latter is bigger, and its splits are healing. Labour cannibalising the Lib Dems might help a little, but they'd still be outnumbered.
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Feb 26, 2017 15:33
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Even in the Labour/Leave seats, more Labour voters voted Remain than Leave, I believe.
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Feb 26, 2017 15:40
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nopantsjack posted:but he's being disingenuous! if i point this out maybe he'll see the error of his ways! Lol yeah mine is defintely the disingenuous, contrary voice here.
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Feb 26, 2017 15:40
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jabby posted:I'd be happy to argue that triggering Article 50 in isolation doesn't constitute support for hard Brexit I'm sure you would. You'd also be happy to argue that Corbyn is a good labour leader and not to blame for the party's woeful performance at the moment. That you'd be happy to argue it doesn't say a lot. It's a struggle to reconcile your claim that you're a doctor with some of the stuff you've shared with this thread. Frightening.
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Feb 26, 2017 15:44
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Darth Walrus posted:Most of those are 'safe seats' where Labour gets about 40% of the vote and the rest is too evenly split between other parties for anyone else to approach that (so, for instance, it might be 20% Conservative, 20% UKIP, 20% Independent). In a referendum, party splits don't matter - all that matters is whether you support one side or the other, so you see Leave wins in seats the Conservatives or UKIP couldn't hope to gain. The problem, of course, is that that vote-split now seems to be eroding as the Conservatives cannibalise UKIP, making them more powerful in the north than they have been in decades. The British left seems to have a fundamental problem at the moment - the electorate is split between two blocs, Labour/Lib Dem and Conservative/UKIP, with little crossover between them (since the Conservatives ate a bunch of Lib Dem voters in 2015, anyway). The latter is bigger, and its splits are healing. Labour cannibalising the Lib Dems might help a little, but they'd still be outnumbered. This is the fundamental problem the left has - there are just more right wing Tory/UKIP supporters than there are progressive Labour/Lib Dem/Green supporters. Voters move more easily between the parties inside their 'block', and the progressive block is dividing more while the Tories eat up UKIP. Anyone suggesting there is a quick fix electoral solution to this in the style of Tony Blair is deluding themselves. Voters need to be convinced to abandon right wing ideals and move to the left, and that is a long and arduous process that may take decades.
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Feb 26, 2017 15:45
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Pissflaps posted:I'm sure you would. You'd also be happy to argue that Corbyn is a good labour leader and not to blame for the party's woeful performance at the moment. That you'd be happy to argue it doesn't say a lot. Why is your av the guy who was racist to Jamie Foxx?
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Feb 26, 2017 15:48
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jabby posted:that is a long and arduous process that may take decades. This is why corbyn and his supporters like you need to have your noses rubbed in the looming dogshit that is his performance at a general election. You need to be humiliated because ordinary people need a labour government more than you need your decades long little project, allowing the Tories to do what they like without opposition while you come up with excuses and blame everyone else. Gonzo McFee posted:Why is your av the guy who was racist to Jamie Foxx? I already posted why in the CCCC UK chat thread. I'd rather stay on topic itt.
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Feb 26, 2017 15:49
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Pissflaps posted:I'm sure you would. You'd also be happy to argue that Corbyn is a good labour leader and not to blame for the party's woeful performance at the moment. That you'd be happy to argue it doesn't say a lot. It's weird when you get personal. Haha funny troll and all but don't start getting nasty.
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Feb 26, 2017 15:49
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Pissflaps posted:It's a struggle to reconcile your claim that you're a doctor with some of the stuff you've shared with this thread. Frightening. so epousing an opinion different to yours means that they are not competent or qualified to carry out their job they are paid to do? I see
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Feb 26, 2017 15:50
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Regarde Aduck posted:It's weird when you get personal. Haha funny troll and all but don't start getting nasty. But it's ok for someone else to say something personal against me? I see.
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Feb 26, 2017 15:50
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jabby posted:This is the fundamental problem the left has - there are just more right wing Tory/UKIP supporters than there are progressive Labour/Lib Dem/Green supporters
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Feb 26, 2017 15:51
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Darth Walrus posted:(since the Conservatives ate a bunch of Lib Dem voters in 2015, anyway).
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Feb 26, 2017 15:55
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The combined Tory/UKIP voteshare last general election was 49%. The country's gone pretty hard right in recent years. A worldwide trend since 2008.
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Feb 26, 2017 15:58
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jabby posted:This is the fundamental problem the left has - there are just more right wing Tory/UKIP supporters than there are progressive Labour/Lib Dem/Green supporters. Voters move more easily between the parties inside their 'block', and the progressive block is dividing more while the Tories eat up UKIP. What's the chance of olds dying off ever affecting this?
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Feb 26, 2017 16:00
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and i must meme posted:What's the chance of olds dying off ever affecting this? The youfs are going right wing as well.
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Feb 26, 2017 16:02
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Question is have they actually swung right or are people just reacting to a Labour Party that looks like it couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery?
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Feb 26, 2017 16:02
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Gonzo McFee posted:The combined Tory/UKIP voteshare last general election was 49%. The country's gone pretty hard right in recent years. A worldwide trend since 2008.
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Feb 26, 2017 16:04
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Anyway, any sign yet of the "real fight" that Corbyn said has now begun?
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Feb 26, 2017 16:06
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Gonzo McFee posted:The youfs are going right wing as well.
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Feb 26, 2017 16:06
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jBrereton posted:So you're saying that despite the worst GE in history for the Lib Dems and a pretty loving horrible one for Labour, still nearly half of people voted for them and the nationalists? But the problem is some kind of impossible tide of right wing politics? They got just over 38%. 46.8% if you add the SNP and the Greens. And with UKIP collapsing and being absorbed the the Tory party it's a pretty big task to take the Tories down so long as half the country doesn't mind the horrible poo poo it's doing to the other half.
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Feb 26, 2017 16:10
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Of course it's not going to be easy, but that's supposed to be the point of the Labour Party.
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Feb 26, 2017 16:13
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jBrereton posted:Yeah I wonder why A homogeneous right wing media and coming of age during the collapse of the last Labour government combined with uninspired and incompetent leadership after it is my guess. Pissflaps posted:Of course it's not going to be easy, but that's supposed to be the point of the Labour Party. Yeah, current tact isn't working and needs to be changed. Replacing the leader is a given but it doesn't replace the root problems.
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Feb 26, 2017 16:19
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Gonzo McFee posted:They got just over 38%. 46.8% if you add the SNP and the Greens. Seems very possible to fix with a strong message, especially when the current government is actually a complete shambles and has already failed on a number of initiatives.
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Feb 26, 2017 16:20
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Fangz posted:Anyway, any sign yet of the "real fight" that Corbyn said has now begun? step one in the grand plan was to sacrifice copeland in order to lull the enemy into a false sense of security. the corbmeister has 'em right where he wants them!
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Feb 26, 2017 16:26
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jBrereton posted:Yeah I wonder why Or is it because all that is just fine for most of the rentier class, who'd rather have that and a bit more violence against minorities than anything that affects them directly, even if it only exacerbates the problems that everyone is upset about?
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Feb 26, 2017 16:32
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I don't know if it's been posted here but Heseltine reckons he's got enough rebel Tory peers to join with Labour and the Lib Dems and add amendments to protect the rights of EU citizens to stay and to allow parliament to scrutinise the process. It's not really a good look for the opposition to have Michael Heseltine being the person holding the government to account.
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Feb 26, 2017 16:35
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