|
Yeah he obviously knows his poo poo, that's awesome.
|
#
?
Feb 22, 2017 22:35
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 16:00 |
|
|
ArtistCeleste posted:As far as grinding making an inferior knife to forging, that was true some time ago. But I am not at all convinced that taking your very carefully manufactured billets, sticking it into the forge and hammering on it is going to make a superior blade. And folding then together with other alloys will be more likely to weaken it at this point than to strengthen it. my general impression (deffo not an experienced knifemaker, although i've made a few small ones minus hardware) is that forging and being thorough about it gives you some opportunities to do beneficial stuff other techniques can't even attempt, like packing the grain through continual hammering as the last real heat cools to black. I don't know how much people actually bother with niggly little things like that in practice, though.
|
|
#
?
Feb 22, 2017 23:25
|
|
|
If it cools past the critical temperature, to black, then you are hammering dislocations into your metal. It's likely to cause cracking. I would need to see evidence that there is someone out there who can successfully hammer the grains down so evenly throughout that it is superior to manufactured material. I am highly sceptical that there is anyone who forges that consistently. Most of the bladesmiths I know openly admit that they place value in historic processes not in the superiority of the finished product. Unrelated, but I want to point out that on the website I posted the Pringle and Pringle II blades are both Uthberts reproduced with historical accuracy.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 00:15
|
|
|
Yeah I can't speak to that personally, I've just heard it cited as best practice. It was described as light, rapid hammering with a flat-faced hammer working evenly over the flat of the blade, no meaningful metal moved. I know I've done something similar for mild steel tools I've made, but in that case I know it's not grain-related, I'm just getting some controlled work-hardening in to salvage as much working strength as possible from a so-so material for the job. Unrelated/back to my tooling plate: what's best practice for fixturing for the first shimmed facing operation to cause as little distortion as possible, assuming I'm using toe clamps? Reading around I've seen mention of clamping at four points distorting work more than three but I'm not clear on why that'd be the case, as long as you're clamping over firm support and not reefing on the toe-clamp nuts too hard my gut thinking is that the distortion factor ought to be about the same. also- my local metal guys are usually pretty reluctant about taking a small chunk out of a much bigger sheet if it's a less-common alloy, so I've got a sneaking suspicion i might get saddled with 6061-t6 flat bar instead of plate that's been heat-treated in a desirable way. THAT SAID, I also have access to an annealing oven. I've annealed plenty of aluminum before, except I could always true it up on the anvil if it warped and I had no idea what a 'thou' was. Would chucking it in the oven to anneal and letting it cool slowly be likely to introduce too much distortion? Realistically, how much distortion could show up over time if I go with -t6 and get right to machining? The Taig's got an aluminum table so I'm having lurid visions of the tooling plate bowing away from the table and permanently distorting it in the process. (i know it's a learning project i might totally gently caress up after all this and im overthinking it, but hey, it beats underthinking it) Ambrose Burnside fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Feb 23, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 00:32
|
|
|
The three point method is a way of shimming it when it's warped in x and y. Move your spacers around until there is no more rock in the plate and clamp there. Multiple ways to skin a cat and whatnot. Either way will work fine. If I've really got to keep something flat I'll put an indicator in my spindle and zero it out right next to my toe clamp before I tighten the nut. You can watch how much warp you're introducing in real time. Do you have access to a vice wide enough to hold your plate? Putting all the clamping force in a different plane makes it easy mode. I just got a set of these so I can cheat as hard as possible on stuff that won't fit in a vise. https://www.miteebite.com/products/t-slot-kits/ I can't take heavy cuts but for getting one flat side on a warped plate they're awesome. Edit: I read your post again. Think of the three point support like three fingers under a sphere. It's impossible to have one point out of contact (introduces warp when clamped). Add a 4th and it doesn't have to touch. honda whisperer fucked around with this message at 02:26 on Feb 23, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 02:22
|
|
|
Ambrose Burnside posted:Yeah I can't speak to that personally, I've just heard it cited as best practice. It was described as light, rapid hammering with a flat-faced hammer working evenly over the flat of the blade, no meaningful metal moved. I know I've done something similar for mild steel tools I've made, but in that case I know it's not grain-related, I'm just getting some controlled work-hardening in to salvage as much working strength as possible from a so-so material for the job. You're way overthinking this. Just machining it flat in T6 condition is better than the method you're proposing. Dont shim for the first op, or at all. Use a drill bit or dowel pin and one vise face. Google how to square up a block. Don't reinvent the first thing they teach when learning machining. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igfqYZPdQ78 Comedyish video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW8HNAlUXxU
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 02:29
|
|
|
CarForumPoster posted:You're way overthinking this. Still overthinking it. Cover the back with double sided tape and stick it right to the table. If you're a scared baby, clamp a thinner piece next to it to help take the load.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 03:51
|
|
|
ArtistCeleste posted:If it cools past the critical temperature, to black, then you are hammering dislocations into your metal. It's likely to cause cracking. There are three phases a knife blank goes through (for the purposes of this discussion). When all carbon is in solution (austenitization) is one phase. The third phase is after quenching, you've got 100% Martensite formation. In between you've got a range of a few hundred degrees where the metal is flexible, even though it's below critical temperature. This 1300-800F range, the metal can be hammered gently without introducing cracks or problems. The process is referred to as aus-forging, and it does make a difference. http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11665-008-9245-1 Properly forged blades, I would argue, have a lot of benefits over something made with stock removal. Differential heat treat is another area where a custom knife maker can improve upon mass production.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 18:13
|
|
|
oxbrain posted:Still overthinking it.  if it worked for sheet metal, yeah, why wouldn't it work for a thicker plate? Thanks.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 20:54
|
|
|
Ambrose Burnside posted:
It's all down to the height vs width. The tape is really strong laterally, but not as much vertically. Too tall of a part and you can lever it up. What are the dimension of the plate you're making?
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 22:57
|
|
|
oxbrain posted:It's all down to the height vs width. The tape is really strong laterally, but not as much vertically. Too tall of a part and you can lever it up. 18.5" x 6" x 0.5". It's gonna be very similar to the first iteration of this dude's http://www.micro-machine-shop.com/tooling_plate.htm because it's ready-designed for the Taig and I don't quite know what I need it to address beyond "getting the vise/parts square and true is a goddamn pain right now and my tiny t-slots don't play nice with most common fixturing stuff".
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2017 01:35
|
|
|
Pegan, that is still above the critical temperature and that is the proper way to forge tool steel. I still would need proof that anyone is that good at forging to make it better than the highly controlled process by which steel is now made. The best bladesmiths I know also teach this. I agree with them.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2017 23:10
|
|
|
This is one of the kindest and most level disagreements the internet has ever seen. 
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2017 23:16
|
|
|
I am now imagining knives made with closed die drop forges.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2017 01:15
|
|
|
Ambrose Burnside posted:18.5" x 6" x 0.5". It's gonna be very similar to the first iteration of this dude's http://www.micro-machine-shop.com/tooling_plate.htm because it's ready-designed for the Taig and I don't quite know what I need it to address beyond "getting the vise/parts square and true is a goddamn pain right now and my tiny t-slots don't play nice with most common fixturing stuff". If it's only 6" wide in one dimension just hold it in 2-3 vices and go to town. Give us details on the machine you're making this on. How big is the table and how much travel do you have? Do you have a matching set of vices and parallels?
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2017 04:45
|
|
|
Ambrose Burnside posted:
Sheet metal will conform to the adhesive over a large area, if it's warped it will flatten some amount. Plate will not and I have gotten some way way out of flat plate and bar stock before such that doing this will cause it to fly out of the mill.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2017 12:11
|
|
|
Don't you hate when your preferred machine is either down or tied up on a long job? I had about 100 mirror finish stainless muffler skins on the laser this week so I was forced to nibble this out on my CNC punch. Surprised 9/16 aluminum nibbles so well and keeps flat. Hate when my real work gets in the way of my fun work.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2017 15:45
|
|
|
honda whisperer posted:If it's only 6" wide in one dimension just hold it in 2-3 vices and go to town. Apparently the knee mills will all be out of commission next week so it'll all be done on a Haas toolroom mill I think. More than enough table and travel. Just chucking it in two vises will deffo work fine, I didn't table it before because all the matched Kurt vises are spoken for and need to be ready to go on the machines buuuuuut seeing as how the manual mills are out of commission next week I think everything will line up to borrow one. I have access to whatever parallels too but they're all beat to poo poo from idiot first-years running tools into them, half the time I have to take a burr off one with a sharpening stone before my work'll sit flat on em. Might be able to piece together 4 suitable parallels in good shape if they let me paw through the crib drawers. CarForumPoster posted:Sheet metal will conform to the adhesive over a large area, if it's warped it will flatten some amount. Plate will not and I have gotten some way way out of flat plate and bar stock before such that doing this will cause it to fly out of the mill. e: AS A GENERAL ASIDE thank all yall for entertaining my neuroses irt this stuff, tackling projects where I suddenly can't rely on experience + mk1 eyeball precision + "just hit it with a hammer until everything is ok" makes we wanna obsessively double-triple check every single thing. gotta put more machine time in and read up and listen to the wise youtube machinists. Ambrose Burnside fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Feb 25, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2017 18:15
|
|
|
I'll never stop plugging this book at every opportunity because it's the best and the first edition is cheap as free at this point: Michael Fitzpatrick's Machining and CNC Technology https://www.amazon.com/Machining-Te...+cnc+technology
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2017 19:19
|
|
|
i found a remarkably affordable PDF copy a while ago the last time you recommended it and i've actually had cause to refer to it a few times, but a paper version would be a lot more useful in the shop...
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2017 20:10
|
|
|
I just spent 11 hours learning to spin trumpet bells. It turns out that spinning takes about 5 minutes, and the work leading up to the spin takes the rest of the time. Such a good day though.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2017 23:55
|
|
|
I now have access to a proper mill. Any good links or tips on beginner machining projects?
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 15:32
|
|
|
Pagan posted:I now have access to a proper mill. Any good links or tips on beginner machining projects? Have you ever used one before? Is it a Bridgeport? What kinds of tools and material do you have available? If you just want to play around on the cheap, and you have a saw, I'd get a little bar of aluminum rectangle stock to practice milling parts square, and touching off x and y so that you can locate holes properly.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 15:45
|
|
|
The mill is at a makerspace that I'm now a member of. I don't think they currently offer any classes on machining, so I'm hoping to find a few people who know how it works and bug them.Volkerball posted:Have you ever used one before? No quote:Is it a Bridgeport? Yes quote:What kinds of tools and material do you have available? It's in a big shop, so there's everything from scrap to the mild steel I have. I'm also interested in making some blacksmithing tools. Might also be easy to make some of the blade fittings I've been working on.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 00:23
|
|
|
I would love to be able to spin metal. It's on my bucket list. I am making tongs tonight with Guildwerks. . This guy is incredible. Just the best. Steaming on Twitch if anyone is interested. Clayandsteel.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 01:03
|
|
|
Pagan posted:The mill is at a makerspace that I'm now a member of. I don't think they currently offer any classes on machining, so I'm hoping to find a few people who know how it works and bug them. A Fly cutter is a good first project on a mill-lathe. Make one with a cheap turning toolholder. The HSS bits are cool and all but you'll save yourself time and the frustration of wondering if you ground the tool right. Since time isn't an issue just having one cutting bit will save you a lot of money when you inevitably plow it into something too fast.  A Bridgeport looks like a lot of tool but it's really pretty dainty. The quill isn't terribly beefy and it won't take a huge cut. As long as you don't try and treat it like some $800k Okuma you'll be OK. Just go slow, take light cuts, and always make sure the part is clamped very very well. If it's not don't try and catch it, stop it, or get in the way when it flies off. Personally I keep a stash of chucks, end mills, and drill bits. The chucks are all keyless, the end mills Garr carbide, and the drill bits very basic. How is it done in a MakerSpace? Is the tooling provided you just add consumables like drill bits and such? Or do they have everything you need? How do they handle when you break a tool?
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 01:05
|
|
|
Pagan posted:I now have access to a proper mill. Any good links or tips on beginner machining projects? Most of the projects we did in my program were ripped off from Madsen's Engineering Drawing And Design 2nd - 4th editions. There's plans for a pretty handy little 6" arbor press in one of them. Older editions are frequently on amazon for little more than the price of shipping and it has the most coherent explanation of GD&T I've found anywhere. But first just grab a bunch of 3-6" pieces of bar or flat stock out a scrap bin and practice squaring them up until you have that process and proper workholding down pat. Deburring the part and cleaning the jaws and parallels every time you open the vise is half the battle. Your chip brush is the most important part of the machine. shame on an IGA fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Feb 27, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 01:58
|
|
|
I'm on that grind right now too. Later today I'm going down to the ol metal supply house to grab the stock for that tooling plate, a fly cutter, maybe some simple edge fixtures too. Was thinking of taking a crack at some toe clamps/step blocks but nah that doesn't make much sense if I'm making a tooling plate specifically compatible with common cheap import workholding crap. I desperately need a better vise too but a toolmaker's vise is probably beyond me for now and littlemachineshop's got the affordable hookups.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 17:17
|
|
|
ArtistCeleste posted:I would love to be able to spin metal. It's on my bucket list. Watched your stream, dude was good. Very, very, good. It was really cool how he just eyeballed the angle of the tongs. I thought no way, then he showed the side profile and it was almost perfect. Sound quality was pretty good given the power hammers-forge-hammering going on. I had no issues hearing what anyone said. The mic was picking up some conversation echo early on but later in the stream it was fine. Vice talk : We've got one of the cheap import jobs like the ones littlemachineshop sells and it does a pretty good job. Toss the lovely jaws it comes with though and make your own. We also pitched the swivel base as it wasn't flat, or round. If you have a chance to pick up a Kurt Vise I'd highly recommend it. It's like a Cadillac with a handle. Check MSC for vices too, the Kurt's are about $600 but they've got a similar sized Interstate for $175. https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/00919027 Personally I'd pay $20 more and get the MSC vice. They're good people to get a relationship with.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 18:58
|
|
|
Thanks Yooper. He's been making those tongs by hand since 2003. He really is the best tool maker I know. I am going to make about 20 pairs probably and stream some of that. I have an open invitation to do it again. I really didn't expect a tong making and axe making lesson. I thought we would just play and capture it on camera. I will upload the axe throwing portion tonight. There was no connection in the barn.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 21:41
|
|
|
CarForumPoster posted:Comedyish video: New favorite channel right here
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:31
|
|
|
Yooper posted:Vice talk : We've got one of the cheap import jobs like the ones littlemachineshop sells and it does a pretty good job. Toss the lovely jaws it comes with though and make your own. We also pitched the swivel base as it wasn't flat, or round. If you have a chance to pick up a Kurt Vise I'd highly recommend it. It's like a Cadillac with a handle. Check MSC for vices too, the Kurt's are about $600 but they've got a similar sized Interstate for $175. https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/00919027 Kurt vises are definitely extremely nice but conventional milling vises almost always seem too tall for the Taig, they just don't have the Z-axis travel to accommodate much in the way of workholding height especially if you're working on a part with any height or need to use a drill chuck. Just using jobber drills in a chuck with maybe an inch or so of spoilboard and clamps in there and I'm already getting kinda close to hitting the stop at the top of the column. I'm looking at 2-3" screwless vises right now, LMS' got some really short ones that'll do me well in that regard. Unrelated: Christ the fuckin jabronies they got workin at the metal supply place nowadays, I had to tell the dude that, no, this is stainless steel not aluminum, and i noticed you don't have a vernier and can't read a tape measure so let me find the stock in the racks, and furthermore no you do not need a forklift for one 1/2" x 6" half-length, just grab the other end. trust me itll be fine
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:41
|
|
|
Ambrose Burnside posted:Kurt vises are definitely extremely nice but conventional milling vises almost always seem too tall for the Taig, they just don't have the Z-axis travel to accommodate much in the way of workholding height especially if you're working on a part with any height or need to use a drill chuck. Just using jobber drills in a chuck with maybe an inch or so of spoilboard and clamps in there and I'm already getting kinda close to hitting the stop at the top of the column. I'm looking at 2-3" screwless vises right now, LMS' got some really short ones that'll do me well in that regard. Ahh yah, I can see a smaller mill having issues. I've seen some unique little holding jigs in Carr-Lane but its been awhile since I've browsed their stuff. edit : these  Our local steel shop is filled with goofballs. They typically have outside sales guys who are much more knowledgeable. Yooper fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Feb 28, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 01:25
|
|
|
If you're using a mill in a makerspace, let me save you some time and agony: before you start practicing squaring stock or anything, learn to tram in the mill's head and square up the vise. I had assumed that the mills at my makerspace were routinely trammed by the staff and then kept wondering why squaring stock never shook out and why my flycutter and endmills left such manky surface finishes. When I first decided to check on the tilt and nod of the machine I was using, I found out that it was off 5/1000 in nod and 25/1000 in tilt in a 6" radius. Because your shared machine will be used by people who crash tools and whatnot and never check tram, who knows how cockeyed the head will be. Part 2 is making sure that the vise is reasonably square to the trammed head. It's not hard to get it dead nuts, it just takes a little practice. It took a half hour to do this, the first time I tried it, trying to remember how Mr. Pete demonstrated it. Now it's less than 5 minutes every time I use a shared mill and it keeps me from questioning my sanity.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 02:20
|
|
|
CrazyLittle posted:New favorite channel right here This Old Tony is either the best or second best machining channel on youtube. The other contender being Clickspring. Other guys are good, but Tony and Clickspring have amazingly consistent production value and great content. If anybody hasn't watched these guys, do. You might loose a couple afternoons, but it's definitely worth your time. Speaking of losing an afternoon, it you haven't seen Dan Gelbart's prototyping series, you should check it out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMP_AfiNlX4 If you don't want a waterjet now, you will soon.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 04:34
|
|
|
I'd say Tony is better in terms of actually learning stuff, especially for the basics. Clickspring is for when you just want to zone out to some machine/process porn, though his toolmaking detours are pretty good. Mr Pete is best for sheer amount of info and breadth of subjects, but you have to wade.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 09:39
|
|
|
I know very little about metal science and working, so help me out with a little project I have. I'm building a bird cage/indoor aviary withwooden structure, but I want to make the "daily" door for the birds in metal wire, since wood frames do tend to steal a lot of visibility. I have bought some 3 mm and 1.5 mm piano wire for material. (Obtaining any sort of "raw" metal seems exceedingly difficult in this corner of Europe.) Using a gas flame (55/45 butane/propane mix) to heat the wire, I've bent the 3 mm wire to make the basic shape like this:  I have two questions from here: 1) The wire has obviously changed color and presumably tempering where I bent it. This will never carry any real load. (I have two birds, they each weigh about 100 gram.) This isn't anything to worry about structurally, right? If I wanted to make it look better, and painting is not an option, what's the simplest approach? (Anything that can potentially flake off is bad, birds love to chew on everything.) 2) I'll need to join the two ends of the wire, as well as join some mesh or more wire to fill in the door. I have a cheap soldering iron, and solder for electronics use, but assume that isn't sufficient. Since I don't plan to do much more metal work I'd rather not spend too much on additional tools. Any suggestions on how to join this then? nielsm fucked around with this message at 11:58 on Feb 28, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 11:55
|
|
|
nielsm posted:Bird Gate 1. Nope, you're fine. Depending on temp you likely just oxidized it a bit. Unless your birds turn into velociraptors you'll be structurally fine. Coating : I'd leave it as is. It'll develop a bit of a patina over time. Any coating you want to add that won't flake off/get eaten by birds will be a chemical process and not something you can easily do in your kitchen. 2. In a perfect world you'd TIG weld it. Hopefully someone else can chime in that has more experience on the joining area. The low temp of your torch is going to be an issue. You probably can't braze and silver solder probably won't grab. Other options are a mechanical joint with some steel wire drawn tight or even a metal sleeve with some epoxy inside.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 15:38
|
|
|
That's like 15 seconds with an oxy-acetylene rig or TIG but I doubt a soft-soldered butt weld would hold up to much. My approach there for an easy mechanical joining would be [slung blade's idea below is better and more accessible but i leave this here for posterity] a copper tubing sleeve. Start with tubing that's reasonably close to the diameter of the wire, I think 6mm would work well for you. Scour the wire ends clean with coarse steel wool/coarse sandpaper/rotary tools, the rougher the better, we want lots of tooth in the wire here, smooth is bad. Use a pipe cutter/saw to get yourself a ring 20 mm long at least im thinking, debur both ends, anneal with the torch and drop into a can of water while still hot. You can pickle it in hot vinegar at this stage if you want shiny copper Instead of dull oxide, polish the resultant dull pink coating after a couple of hours with very fine steel wool, fine sandpaper etc. Slide the annealed collar onto the wire and situate over the join, and then begin pinching all the excess to one side. You can use your fingers to do the bulk of the work at first, you just want to pinch the two parts of the wire in a very tight sleeve of copper with all the excess flattened into a single 'tab' hanging off the join. Once the general form is in use pliers and finally the bench vise to crimp the excess tab as close and sharp to the round stock as possible. This'll grab the stock tightly and not let go because the aggressive rough surface of the wire will bite into the soft copper jacket along its entire length as you tighten the crimp and increase the pressure on the wire. Sidethoughts- -once the join is made avoid working on the join or shaping/clamping the collar further, it'll just loosen things. -Once the join is tight you won't be able to spin the collar, so get the tab pointed a way you're happy with before you start locking things in completely. -Longer tubing collar = a stronger join with more pullout resistance. -You can likely reinforce the join with solder if you just can't nail a tight-enough crimp, use the heat to draw the solder down the length from one end until it sticks its head out the other. The collar -will- loosen when you do this so don't pull the wires out by accident. Ambrose Burnside fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Feb 28, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 17:34
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 16:00 |
|
|
I would take the piano wire and weave it into a grid to cover the door frame. Then I'd join it to the frame by bending eye hooks around the frame's wire with pliers. Purely mechanical joinery. I'd do the ends of the frame with two joined eye hooks as well, if I thought it needed it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 17:52
|
|