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Well I guess Lords reform is technically a win for Labour
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Feb 26, 2017 16:38
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Guavanaut posted:Is it because centrism failed them, global capitalism failed them, and decades of priming against anything approaching socialism has left populist nationalism the only alternative that has anything to promise people? Or is it because the closest thing we have to a left is milquetoast democratic socialist Corbyn, who is apparently 'hard left' despite not having any hard left policies except trains maybe? I dunno, I think allowing workers to purchase their companies that try to leave the UK is pretty socialist left.
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Feb 26, 2017 16:39
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Kokoro Wish posted:I dunno, I think allowing workers to purchase their companies that try to leave the UK is pretty socialist left. Is that labour policy?
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Feb 26, 2017 16:41
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Pissflaps posted:Is that labour policy? Yes it's in the platform. Right of first refusal for workers to purchase.
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Feb 26, 2017 16:48
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Didn't Miliband propose giving workers a statutory right to launch purchase bids if a company was put up for sale and guaranteed time to raise funds to match counter bids
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Feb 26, 2017 16:50
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"£3.7bn in cuts to disability benefits needed to help cut the deficit, says cabinet minister" http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/37bn-pip-cuts-patrick-mcloughlin-lib-dems-lords-a7600151.html We need a Labour government.
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Feb 26, 2017 16:52
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Kokoro Wish posted:Yes it's in the platform. Right of first refusal for workers to purchase. http://www.labour.org.uk/pages/what-is-the-labour-party "Labour has only been in government for four short periods of the 20th century." (Which is not even true and tippexes out the fact Labour has been in power longer this millennium than anyone else)
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Feb 26, 2017 16:59
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Paxman posted:"£3.7bn in cuts to disability benefits needed to help cut the deficit, says cabinet minister" loving terrifying.
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Feb 26, 2017 17:03
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Pissflaps posted:This is why corbyn and his supporters like you need to have your noses rubbed in the looming dogshit that is his performance at a general election. I don't know why you think a poor performance at a general election is going to convince anyone to change their ideology and suddenly support centrist neoliberalism. If anyone actually did that then the Greens/Lib Dems/UKIP would have no voters. People are going to continue to support socialism regardless of how popular/unpopular it is.
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Feb 26, 2017 17:07
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Paxman posted:We need a Labour government. You're not going to get one.
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Feb 26, 2017 17:10
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jabby posted:I don't know why you think a poor performance at a general election is going to convince anyone to change their ideology and suddenly support centrist neoliberalism. If anyone actually did that then the Greens/Lib Dems/UKIP would have no voters. People are going to continue to support socialism regardless of how popular/unpopular it is. I don't think it will convince you to change, but it'll change the minds of traditional labour members away from supporting this ludicrous experiment (this is already happening), and you can go back to mumbling about parliament 'not working' and let the people have their opposition back.
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Feb 26, 2017 17:10
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Pissflaps posted:I don't think it will convince you to change, but it'll change the minds of traditional labour members away from supporting this ludicrous experiment (this is already happening), and you can go back to mumbling about parliament 'not working' and let the people have their opposition back. Being a 'traditional' Labour member doesn't make your vote count for any more than a new member, and Corbyn supporters had a big majority. If he sticks to his guns and doesn't resign until a genuine left-wing alternative appears we'll see who people want to vote for.
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Feb 26, 2017 17:16
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The time that a left-wing alternative appears would be too late as Corbyn would already be under piles of dirt.
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Feb 26, 2017 17:19
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christ, really?
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Feb 26, 2017 17:27
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jabby posted:I don't know why you think a poor performance at a general election is going to convince anyone to change their ideology and suddenly support centrist neoliberalism. If anyone actually did that then the Greens/Lib Dems/UKIP would have no voters. People are going to continue to support socialism regardless of how popular/unpopular it is. The question is how many of them? And is supporting Brexit somehow socialism for you? Is 'people voted for something so it's mandatory now to do it' socialism? Because, you know, people as in the majority do support Tory plans and the current government. Does that somehow mean that Labour shouldn't oppose it? As far as I can tell your opinion is that Labour should take the position of 'rather hard Brexit than no Brexit'. Clearly what we are going to have is hard Brexit, with the government embracing it and in doing so following a popular mandate. Is that a reason enough for Labour to support the government in this? Is any hard brexiteer really going to go: fair enough, they were eventually forced to take that position and so they represent me better than Tories? That sounds suspiciously like the argument for Labour adopting austerity (and mind you they still haven't abandoned their commitment to 'budget responsibility' or the 'we overspent in the past' line) to chase Tory voters. It didn't work then, it's not going to work now. It's rather telling you call opposing Brexit 'supporting centrist neoliberalism'. Private Speech fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Feb 26, 2017 |
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Feb 26, 2017 17:31
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You can tell Pissflaps can't care all that much because he says 1) he cares about the Labour Party, 2) is concerned about its future, 3) believes many other people share his concerns and yet has decided resolutely to do nothing about this.
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Feb 26, 2017 17:32
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Private Speech posted:The question is how many of them? And is supporting Brexit somehow socialism for you? Is 'people voted for something so it's mandatory now to do it' socialism? Because, you know, people as in the majority do support Tory plans and the current government. Does that somehow mean that Labour shouldn't oppose it? Not everything has to be viewed through the prism of Brexit. Brexit is going to happen regardless of the stance of the Labour party. As much as possible I'd like them to work to soften it, but by the end of this parliament it will all be over. I care about the future direction of the country and to that end, the future direction of Labour.
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Feb 26, 2017 17:40
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Paxman posted:"£3.7bn in cuts to disability benefits needed to help cut the deficit, says cabinet minister" things are going to be extremely bad before public opinion turns against the tories
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Feb 26, 2017 17:40
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Jose posted:things are going to be extremely bad before public opinion turns against the tories https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/19/why-some-tories-fear-blood-on-the-streets tories are scared, apparently
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Feb 26, 2017 17:43
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jabby posted:Not everything has to be viewed through the prism of Brexit. Brexit is going to happen regardless of the stance of the Labour party. As much as possible I'd like them to work to soften it, but by the end of this parliament it will all be over. I care about the future direction of the country and to that end, the future direction of Labour. So, again, supporting Brexit puts Labour on the correct path for the future? And Labour has about as much ability to soften Brexit as it has to stop it. The ultimate form it takes (barring any amendments in Lords, which I gather you see less urgent than Micheal loving Heseltine) is going to be decided purely by government negotiators. After this vote passes there is nothing anyone else can do to influence it, short of somehow bringing down the government and getting elected (ahahahhahhahaaah good luck with this the way the polls are).
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Feb 26, 2017 17:46
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With whats happening here and over with the US dems I'm finding it very hard to not start believing in accelerationism. It seems like something truly horrific has to happen for people to come together in solidarity.
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Feb 26, 2017 17:50
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TheRat posted:With whats happening here and over with the US dems I'm finding it very hard to not start believing in accelerationism. It seems like something truly horrific has to happen for people to come together in solidarity. To agree with last (and respond to Miftan from last night), the last time western europe even approached solidarity was after ww2. The post-war consensus was one of the best times to be in government in Europe, because all you had to say is "poor people lead to nazism" and suddenly everyone's building hospitals and houses all over the place. Pissflaps posted:This is why corbyn and his supporters like you need to have your noses rubbed in the looming dogshit that is his performance at a general election. it's literally not possible for us to be as badly humiliated as post-blair labour because we don't have 3 million votes to lose Everything you believe is a lie and you are destined for failure and poverty.
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Feb 26, 2017 17:53
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There are horrible things happening. It's just that it hasn't happened to White People.
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Feb 26, 2017 17:55
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J_RBG posted:You can tell Pissflaps can't care all that much because he says 1) he cares about the Labour Party, 2) is concerned about its future, 3) believes many other people share his concerns and yet has decided resolutely to do nothing about this. I'm impressed you can tell this because I don't recall saying I care specifically about the Labour Party: I care about the people in this country who need an opposition to the Tories. If a new, credible centre left party could spring forth and offer an alternative it I'd vote for it immediately and leave you chaps to continue loving over the Labour Party into oblivion. However this isn't going to happen, so the Labour Party needs saving from you because we're hosed without it.
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Feb 26, 2017 17:55
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Spangly A posted:it's literally not possible for us to be as badly humiliated as post-blair labour because we don't have 3 million votes to lose This is 2 million fewer than the 5 million gained from 1983.
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Feb 26, 2017 17:56
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Spangly A posted:it's literally not possible for us to be as badly humiliated as post-blair labour because we don't have 3 million votes to lose what do you mean? over 9 million voted Labour in the 2015 general election
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Feb 26, 2017 17:57
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and i must meme posted:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/19/why-some-tories-fear-blood-on-the-streets
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Feb 26, 2017 18:02
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and i must meme posted:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/19/why-some-tories-fear-blood-on-the-streets maybe should have crushed labour in a GE before implementing article 50
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Feb 26, 2017 18:07
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Pissflaps posted:I'm impressed you can tell this because I don't recall saying I care specifically about the Labour Party: I care about the people in this country who need an opposition to the Tories. Wow you're a belligerent little oval office today aren't you? Now you get to offer absolutely no answers to issues AND throw abuse at people with many times the critical thinking skills. Twat.
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Feb 26, 2017 18:10
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Regarde Aduck posted:Wow you're a belligerent little oval office today aren't you. Impartial readers of this post will be as amused as I am by the impotent hypocrisy on display.
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Feb 26, 2017 18:11
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Private Speech posted:So, again, supporting Brexit puts Labour on the correct path for the future? And Labour has about as much ability to soften Brexit as it has to stop it. The ultimate form it takes (barring any amendments in Lords, which I gather you see less urgent than Micheal loving Heseltine) is going to be decided purely by government negotiators. After this vote passes there is nothing anyone else can do to influence it, short of somehow bringing down the government and getting elected (ahahahhahhahaaah good luck with this the way the polls are). Honestly? I don't much care whether Labour opposes Brexit entirely or pushes for soft Brexit. Brexit will be over by the next election, any party's 'position' on it has an expiration date. I want Labour to remain a socialist party and to push their ideological views like workers rights, healthcare, poverty, housing etc. Getting the public on side over those issues is more important and will help influence the government more than simply whether you plant your flag on 'leave' or 'remain'. Pissflaps posted:the Labour Party needs saving from you See what we did to change the Labour party is actually join the Labour party. That's why we have influence over it and you do not. jabby fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Feb 26, 2017 |
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Feb 26, 2017 18:12
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Guavanaut posted:Wonder what they'll ban instead of fixing structural problems.
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Feb 26, 2017 18:15
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jabby posted:See what we did to change the Labour party is actually join the Labour party. That's why we have influence over it and you do not. Well, yes. Labour is hosed. We know this.
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Feb 26, 2017 18:15
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Guavanaut posted:Wonder what they'll ban instead of fixing structural problems. Unemployment. The sentence will be hard labour.
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Feb 26, 2017 18:18
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Pissflaps posted:Well, yes. Labour is hosed. We know this. I'm sure your plan of endlessly whinging while doing nothing will come good in the end. What do you call the level of political interest below clicktivist?
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Feb 26, 2017 18:18
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jabby posted:I'm sure your plan of endlessly whinging while doing nothing will come good in the end. It's not a plan. I'm a voter with an opinion, nothing more and nothing less.
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Feb 26, 2017 18:20
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kustomkarkommando posted:Didn't Miliband propose giving workers a statutory right to launch purchase bids if a company was put up for sale and guaranteed time to raise funds to match counter bids It that enough time for the workforce to realise that neoliberalism has ensured there is no way in hell they could hope to raise the funds and start looking for more work before the redundancies kick in?
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Feb 26, 2017 18:26
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Pissflaps posted:Impartial readers of this post will be as amused as I am by the impotent hypocrisy on display. I doubt it, it's pretty obvious you're a dense motherfucker.
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Feb 26, 2017 18:29
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jabby posted:Honestly? I don't much care whether Labour opposes Brexit entirely or pushes for soft Brexit. Brexit will be over by the next election, any party's 'position' on it has an expiration date. I want Labour to remain a socialist party and to push their ideological views like workers rights, healthcare, poverty, housing etc. Getting the public on side over those issues is more important and will help influence the government more than simply whether you plant your flag on 'leave' or 'remain'. It's a matter of framing though. Currently the government framing is that immigrants/past Labour profligacy are to blame for all these issues. Worker's rights - immigrants are willing to work in worse conditions and therefore erode your rights, migrants taking our jobs, not behaving properly in work/not capable of performing properly, Labour made the labour market too inflexible to operate, jobs going to overseas workers to exploit the poor dears who get them, etc. Healthcare - Labour overspending and foreigners taking up beds, using up our NHS (National means Britons only. I mean if you think about it it's reasonable enough), going to An'E too much because they don't know the British healthcare etiquette, going to doctor with the flu or their other imaginary issues (fun fact: minorities are much more likely to be misdiagnosed as malingering), etc. Poverty - Labour broke the economy, spent all the money, too much money goes on foreign aid, etc. Housing - Immigrants take up all the housing/we're full, etc. These are all either things I've heard when going door to door for Labour (did you ever I wonder), or things the government more or less directly said. Not opposing the narrative against immigration and Labour overspending, and indeed even adopting it, means that Labour is never going to have better solutions than Tories. Both of those narratives have to be opposed vigorously, and more importantly are false no matter how right they sound (and don't tell me that you don't find yourself nodding to some of them deep down).
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Feb 26, 2017 18:30
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Spangly A posted:I doubt it, it's pretty obvious you're a dense motherfucker. I don't claim to be intelligent, but I have been able to see the blindingly obvious about Jeremy Corbyn for longer than most here.
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Feb 26, 2017 18:33
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