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Pissflaps posted:I don't claim to be intelligent, but I have been able to see the blindingly obvious about Jeremy Corbyn for longer than most here. that other unintelligent people think building hospitals, schools and ending inequality is bad? is that blindingly obvious? Cool thanks, you're mentally diseased, we know. everyone here knows our fellow proles don't like the left. Everyone here knows they'd lynch us. That's fine, we don't care. We're here to make conditions better. Part of that requires fighting every backwards self-harming narrative this country possesses. Milliband couldn't do it and he was the best of the rest.
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Feb 26, 2017 18:35
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Spangly A posted:To agree with last (and respond to Miftan from last night), the last time western europe even approached solidarity was after ww2. The last couple of years has seen a failure of European politicians to get serious about helping the poor, sure. But let's put it this way, Jo Cox' untimely death didn't lead to the end of mental health cuts.
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Feb 26, 2017 18:36
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jBrereton posted:The last couple of years That's a strange way of saying "the last 4 decades"
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Feb 26, 2017 18:38
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Spangly A posted:that other unintelligent people think building hospitals, schools and ending inequality is bad? is that blindingly obvious? Cool thanks, you're mentally diseased, we know. I don't think those things are bad - i want them to happen. That's why I want another labour government, not a hashtag and a few hundred people with Corbyn placards at a rally.
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Feb 26, 2017 18:39
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jBrereton posted:. But let's put it this way, Jo Cox' untimely death didn't lead to the end of mental health cuts. Seriously, you think that's relevant? You think that even slightly compares to world war two, and the post war consensus? Here's the difference. A few dozen people saw Jo Cox die. A few million more on the internet. The vast majority of Europe saw, in excrutiating and genocidal detail, what happens when the right wrests control and attempts to follow through. An MP being assassinated is a laughable comparison. If I shot May tomorrow there'd be no difference. If I roasted the entire tory party in hellfire there'd be no difference. If the country was flattened and everyone was forced to understand that the Right are, and always will be, evil; that's different. jBrereton posted:That's just not even true, western europe came together to help out the Iberian peninsula after the military regimes hosed off by accelerating their entry into the EEC and providing massive amounts of relief for its people As to this it's a very fair argument and I'll reframe myself. The last time Europe saw continental sustained attempts at making conditions better for the long term, the advocation of health services, unions, and anti-right rhetoric being the norm, was the postwar consensus. And even that wasn't enough for people to vote for dirty work like attacking Franco when it was necessary. The sheer scale of the problems we face require a degree of radical improvements that aren't even remotely politically faesible, and all we're seeing from centrist parties is a stalling game that gets darker and darker. Pissflaps points are absurd loving nonsense. Centrism buys people a few more years to ferment their horrible opinions. It doesn't fix anything and the processes do not reverse. If they did, we wouldn't be seeing the rampant nationalism we are. Pissflaps posted:I don't think those things are bad - i want them to happen. That's why I want another labour government, not a hashtag and a few hundred people with Corbyn placards at a rally. your last few labour governments didn't do those, bar the hospitals. I want a socialist government because I want all those things. Jeremy Corbyn remains the only person with media reach able to spread these views, and he is doing very badly at that. You're welcome to vote for some other centrists, but your cause is pathetic and doesn't actually improve things.
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Feb 26, 2017 18:43
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Spangly A posted:your last few labour governments didn't do those, bar the hospitals. And the schools. And the doctors, nurses and teachers that worked in them. And the wealth redistribution through tax credits. But this was all done in the 'wrong way' so it doesn't count. Spangly A posted:You're welcome to vote for some other centrists, but your cause is pathetic and doesn't actually improve things. Spangly A posted:You are entitled to what was, pre tory, the best healthcare system in the world on several metrics. Doesn't improve things....except when, by your own words, they're vastly better than what we have now. Doesn't improve things except Paxman posted:"£3.7bn in cuts to disability benefits needed to help cut the deficit, says cabinet minister" when they're taken away by the Tories. GTF.
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Feb 26, 2017 18:47
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Spangly A posted:that other unintelligent people think building hospitals, schools and ending inequality is bad? is that blindingly obvious? Cool thanks, you're mentally diseased, we know. Do you believe though that you are making conditions better? Labour certainly has all sorts of other problems, but I think that having Corbyn as Labour leader is making the chances of having any sort of Labour government of any description more remote. Not just at the next election, but even after that. The worse the crushing defeat at the next election, the longer it's going to take before there's any chance of winning. It helps the Tories and therefore makes things worse, not better. Are you totally certain that Corbyn is making things better?
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Feb 26, 2017 18:50
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It's darkly amusing that the slumbering remnants of Thatcher's cabinet are providing more effective opposition to the government's agenda than the official Opposition.
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Feb 26, 2017 18:52
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Personal opinions aside, you don't need to step outside your bubble far to see that Corbyn is simply unelectable in this country. Even if you think he is great, even if he was great, it's just hopeless optimism to think he can turn things around from this point. It's just spinning wheels in the mud, he's never making traction, that golden "gotcha" moment where he captures popular opinion will never come. There are two kinds of people: young millennials who love him and want change in all ways, and everybody else who thinks the man is a joke. All that's left is for you to decide whether you prefer to support a cause that cannot win even if you believe it to be correct, or support an alternative that probably also cannot win but very likely stands a better chance overall even if it represents a lesser good.
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Feb 26, 2017 18:59
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LemonDrizzle posted:It's darkly amusing that the slumbering remnants of Thatcher's cabinet are providing more effective opposition to the government's agenda than the official Opposition. your av is of thatcher's self declared biggest accomplishment
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Feb 26, 2017 19:04
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neoliberalism was a mistake
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Feb 26, 2017 19:08
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young millennials!!
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Feb 26, 2017 19:10
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Jose posted:your av is of thatcher's self declared biggest accomplishment If she were alive she'd probably reassign that accolade to Jeremy Corbyn.
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Feb 26, 2017 19:10
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LemonDrizzle posted:It's darkly amusing that the slumbering remnants of Thatcher's cabinet are providing more effective opposition to the government's agenda than the official Opposition. By what metric? You (and the media) have just decided that because Heseltine is going to vote with Labour lords to oppose the government that makes him the opposition and Labour irrelevant. Jeza posted:Personal opinions aside, you don't need to step outside your bubble far to see that Corbyn is simply unelectable in this country. Even if you think he is great, even if he was great, it's just hopeless optimism to think he can turn things around from this point. It's just spinning wheels in the mud, he's never making traction, that golden "gotcha" moment where he captures popular opinion will never come. There are two kinds of people: young millennials who love him and want change in all ways, and everybody else who thinks the man is a joke. The vast majority of Corbyn supporters are resigned to the fact that it's nigh impossible he can win a general election. However, we aren't about to relinquish control of Labour back to the PLP so they can drag it back to the right. That's why supporting Corbyn is important until there's another left-wing candidate. You can argue that's not in the best interests of the country, but at some point you have to vote for the principles you believe in rather than believing the narrative that you can only ever chose the lesser of two evils. Pissflaps posted:If she were alive she'd probably reassign that accolade to Jeremy Corbyn. That's very doubtful, because she never said she wanted a weak Labour party. She said she wanted a Labour party that agreed with her, even if they ended up winning. It's like, literally the opposite thing.
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Feb 26, 2017 19:12
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Pissflaps posted:If she were alive she'd probably reassign that accolade to Jeremy Corbyn. probably not since blair left the labour party in such a state that corbyn became leader
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Feb 26, 2017 19:13
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Labour needs to work out what it's for. The PLP want it to be Tory policy with a red tie instead of a blue one, while I want it to be a machine for enacting sensible left-wing policy. If you're willing to sacrifice everything on the altar of being electable, there's no point in electing you.
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Feb 26, 2017 19:17
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Private Speech posted:So, again, supporting Brexit puts Labour on the correct path for the future? And Labour has about as much ability to soften Brexit as it has to stop it. The ultimate form it takes (barring any amendments in Lords, which I gather you see less urgent than Micheal loving Heseltine) is going to be decided purely by government negotiators. After this vote passes there is nothing anyone else can do to influence it, short of somehow bringing down the government and getting elected (ahahahhahhahaaah good luck with this the way the polls are). You can influence it if public opinion turns against brexit over the next two years, so going through with it (instead of reversing Article 50) becomes electoral poison. Old Leave voters are going to die, the negotations are going to be a brutal dose of reality, the government is going to have to publicly defend its decisions and priorities instead of the current situation where they say "everything will be great!" and everyone goes "yay britain!" Since nobody but the government has any direct say in what's happening, we need other parties making as much noise as possible, arguing what the government should be doing (and this doesn't need to be reasonable either, since they promised the moon on a stick) and making it clear the Tories are completely failing to do it. They need holding to account, the opposition needs to show everyone that the brexit dream that was sold is not going to happen, ideally by showing it was never going to work However it gets reversed (2nd referendum, general election, government getting spooked) depends on how things pan out, but either way public opinion has to be turned against Brexit, because that's where the power to stop it lies
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Feb 26, 2017 19:30
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Gort posted:The PLP want it to be Tory policy with a red tie instead of a blue one Jesus christ. baka kaba posted:Since nobody but the government has any direct say in what's happening, we need other parties making as much noise as possible, arguing what the government should be doing (and this doesn't need to be reasonable either, since they promised the moon on a stick) and making it clear the Tories are completely failing to do it. They need holding to account, the opposition needs to show everyone that the brexit dream that was sold is not going to happen, ideally by showing it was never going to work Bzzt. Nice idea - but Labour just voted for it sorry.
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Feb 26, 2017 19:32
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Paxman posted:Do you believe though that you are making conditions better? Labour certainly has all sorts of other problems, but I think that having Corbyn as Labour leader is making the chances of having any sort of Labour government of any description more remote. Not just at the next election, but even after that. The worse the crushing defeat at the next election, the longer it's going to take before there's any chance of winning. It helps the Tories and therefore makes things worse, not better. No, not certain, not hoping at this point. Corbyn's a great figurehead because he's uncorruptable. Even his underdeveloped policies are better than anything from Labour in 20 years. But at this point I'm still of the mindset that he'd surely resign at a snap, or in fact anything but the 2020 election. The Labour party needs to be left wing to justify its existence. And they need someone who will merrily savage the media whilst in power. Frankly I want him moved into some upstairs position regarding policy. The left needs control over the Labour party because when they don't, this happens; Private Speech posted:Worker's rights - immigrants are willing to work in worse conditions and therefore erode your rights, migrants taking our jobs, not behaving properly in work/not capable of performing properly, Labour made the labour market too inflexible to operate, jobs going to overseas workers to exploit the poor dears who get them, etc. These are bullshit answers to real problems that a centrist Labour has no answer to, either in the political spin sense or in the actual policy sense. These problems will only get worse over time unless there is left wing direction in Labour. There will not be left wing direction in Labour until the media is blown to poo poo. I'd be very happy with Clive Lewis being an overpromoted figurehead with policy guidance and support from Momentum. It is not faesible to have a centrist labour party in power, and it's not faesible having a left wing party in opposition. Simply relying on the sheer stupidity of voters and *pretending* to not be left wing is the clearest outcome here, but Corbyn's hosed everything over listening to policyboards on Brexit and having it already backfire. That doesn't mean I don't want him in a major position in government, I just think he's now too easy a target and lacks the ability to change this, barring mass terrorist attacks wiping out the right wing media.
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Feb 26, 2017 19:38
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Pissflaps posted:I don't claim to be intelligent, but I have been able to see the blindingly obvious about Jeremy Corbyn for longer than most here. That he's a socialist?
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Feb 26, 2017 19:39
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Spangly A posted:I'd be very happy with Clive Lewis being an overpromoted figurehead with policy guidance and support from Momentum. It is not faesible to have a centrist labour party in power, and it's not faesible having a left wing party in opposition. Clive Lewis would just get the same attacks as Corbyn does. The rich and powerful have a vested interest in preventing socialist policies being enacted, so they use their media possession to target any party leader who would enact said policies.
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Feb 26, 2017 19:45
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Gort posted:Clive Lewis would just get the same attacks as Corbyn does. The rich and powerful have a vested interest in preventing socialist policies being enacted, so they use their media possession to target any party leader who would enact said policies. He would but I'm hoping he wouldn't respond to it with exasperated attempts at a conversation where the cameras turn off before he's halfway through. I'd rather have the left wing version of steve bannon but that's probably a UKMT poster and I would not ever wear a suit again
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Feb 26, 2017 19:47
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Spangly A posted:I'd rather have the left wing version of steve bannon but that's probably a UKMT poster and I would not ever wear a suit again I'll be thinking about this sentence for some time.
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Feb 26, 2017 19:59
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Gort posted:If you're willing to sacrifice everything on the altar of being electable, there's no point in electing you. So why did we whip for Brexit.
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Feb 26, 2017 20:04
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Pissflaps posted:I'll be thinking about this sentence for some time. By all means step forwards and offer your services to secure your child a better future? You quite seriously cannot be worse than Corbyn at the media right now, regardless of what a good speaker I think he is. e; I'd definitely rather have a relative unknown trolling the media under a left wing organisation than any other big leadership election, the presidentialisation of our politics is becoming absurd and any such massive misunderstanding of the political system can only hurt the working class
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Feb 26, 2017 20:05
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Fangz posted:So why did we whip for Brexit. Corb's a Lexiteer
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Feb 26, 2017 20:05
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What exactly is Corbyn unwilling to sacrifice under all circumstances, other than his own position?
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Feb 26, 2017 20:06
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Fangz posted:What exactly is Corbyn unwilling to sacrifice under all circumstances, other than his own position? why on earth would him stepping down make any sense without a suitable replacement if the PLP cannot yet be stopped from being vacuous human refuse? Wait til Benn's canned at least, christ
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Feb 26, 2017 20:08
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Is there any progress on intra-party reforms?
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Feb 26, 2017 20:09
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hillary is a womans name
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Feb 26, 2017 20:09
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Shitcan Hillary Benn, trash the power of the individual leadership, cut the balls off the parliamentary party, step down for a figurehead by 2018 seems the best bet.
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Feb 26, 2017 20:09
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Baron Corbyn posted:I don't know if it's been posted here but Heseltine reckons he's got enough rebel Tory peers to join with Labour and the Lib Dems and add amendments to protect the rights of EU citizens to stay and to allow parliament to scrutinise the process. This is an interesting reading of things. What I see is Labour and Lib Dems continuing their strategy of trying to force the government to accept sensible amendments to the Brexit bill. It works in the House of Lords because (i) Conservatives have a minority and (ii) more Tory peers are willing to rebel than Tory MPs. It's great that Heseltine thinks there are some Tory peers who will vote with the two opposition parties, but just because a famous name has decided to talk to a newspaper doesn't mean he and nobody else assumes the mantle of 'holding the government to account'. It's working at this stage of parliamentary proceedings because of maths.
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Feb 26, 2017 20:11
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Jose posted:hillary is a womans name https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Hilarius
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Feb 26, 2017 20:12
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Can you make a single argument for Corbyn that isn't predicated on everyone accepting the assumption that "the parliamentary labour party must be destroyed" as a key priority for the left? Meanwhile Corbyn is leading the left into the strident heroic position that uh quote:“Labour is not wedded to freedom of movement for EU citizens as a point of principle.
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Feb 26, 2017 20:12
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Fangz posted:Can you make a single argument for Corbyn that isn't predicated on everyone accepting the assumption that "the parliamentary labour party must be destroyed"? Yeah, easily. The material condition trumps all, and Corbyn's the first fucker to address this since Kinnock.
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Feb 26, 2017 20:13
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Jose posted:hillary is a womans name Nope, traditionally it's one l for a woman, two for a man. Hillary Clinton has a boys name and it probably helped her in the 1970s.
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Feb 26, 2017 20:13
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Spangly A posted:Yeah, easily. The material condition trumps all, and Corbyn's the first fucker to address this since Kinnock. What do you mean?
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Feb 26, 2017 20:14
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Fangz posted:What do you mean? The material condition of a class, the inequality of a state, it's ability to create projects that improve or at least maintain proper conditions, matter more than anything else. You can argue that most people don't give a gently caress about economics but frankly we shouldn't give a gently caress about what they think. They are demonstrably wrong. What matters is presenting actual class issues in a way that is acceptable to them. Failing to present those issues for the sake of appearing acceptable = Private Speech posted:Worker's rights - immigrants are willing to work in worse conditions and therefore erode your rights, migrants taking our jobs, not behaving properly in work/not capable of performing properly, Labour made the labour market too inflexible to operate, jobs going to overseas workers to exploit the poor dears who get them, etc. Presenting those issues without being acceptable = pissflaps corbyn graph . whatever Ignoring either is not going to work. Present a realistic left wing alternative.
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Feb 26, 2017 20:16
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Blair's government created the largest reduction in poverty since pretty much WWII. I don't give a poo poo about Corbyn saying the right words about poverty if he has somehow contrived a way to say it so inoffensively that no one notices. And he isn't offering a ton of resistance to 'blame the immigrants', is he?
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Feb 26, 2017 20:19
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If the material condition trumps all, this is the only graph you need to look at.
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Feb 26, 2017 20:23
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