Crawl .20: Home of the Frog Dog

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Prism: Dec 22, 2007; yospos

GenericOverusedName posted:

I still find it weird the spooky shadow god hates fire but doesn't give a gently caress about like, Corona.

Dith used to, but then there was confusion about what other glow he doesn't like. Like, when you equip a freezing weapon it says it glows in a cold blue light. Should Dith hate that? (He didn't.) What about halos? (He used to.) Suffering from glow? (I think this one was OK by Dith.)

It was way easier and most consistent just to make it fire.

# ? Feb 26, 2017 14:00

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# ? May 14, 2024 00:00

apple: May 18, 2003; Jose in the club wearing orange suspenders

IronicDongz posted:

It's still a downside because of how much harder it makes managing how many enemies get aggro(and making it harder to lose), shooting things from 1 tile further away isn't worth having more tiles revealed as you move particularly when you move downstairs.

Oh yeah it definitely is a negative overall, just interesting to think about how you can at least get some benefit out of it

# ? Feb 26, 2017 14:08

Darox: Nov 10, 2012

The state of charms: The book of enchantments has four hexes and deflect missiles.

Haifisch posted:

Frogs got some weird changes:

A shame frogs get a bad necromancy apt because of their flavour, half of the species in the game have -2 necromancy apt. It's disheartening for someone who likes Kiku and necromancy spells.

# ? Feb 26, 2017 14:08

LazyMaybe: Aug 18, 2013; oouagh

Prism posted:

It was way easier and most consistent just to make it fire.

it would be better if it just didn't exist

# ? Feb 26, 2017 14:13

Heithinn Grasida: Mar 28, 2005; ...must attack and fall upon them with a gallant bearing and a fearless heart, and, if possible, vanquish and destroy them, even though they have for armour the shells of a certain fish, that they say are harder than diamonds, and in place of swords wield trenchant blades of Damascus steel...

Darox posted:

A shame frogs get a bad necromancy apt because of their flavour, half of the species in the game have -2 necromancy apt. It's disheartening for someone who likes Kiku and necromancy spells.

I'm fine with that, personally, because -2 in necro isn't really that bad. Seven to eight necromancy and kiku gets you replenishable, ablative zombie armor, which is one of the best defenses in the game at very low investment. If you're going kiku, death channel is also cheap even at -2 aptitude. I know this quite well because I liked taking necromancy on HE and they had -2. It makes the necromancer start a little awkward, but it doesn't hurt kiku much and necromancy in general remains extremely attractive.

edit: Also, we can't have a species overlapping with Tengu in any way. That would mean it has to be removed.

Heithinn Grasida fucked around with this message at 14:29 on Feb 26, 2017

# ? Feb 26, 2017 14:26

Floodkiller: May 31, 2011

Internet Kraken posted:

Why would the favored servant of the holy gods (stop calling them good it ruins my flavor ) be loving frogs though

Taking a cue from the classics, maybe.

# ? Feb 26, 2017 14:44

HisMajestyBOB: Oct 21, 2010; College Slice

Cynos should be the servants of the good gods, Felids the servants of the evil gods. :colbert:

# ? Feb 26, 2017 15:03

Carcer: Aug 7, 2010

Evil gods got shafted on that deal.

# ? Feb 26, 2017 15:09

SKULL.GIF: Jan 20, 2017

IronicDongz posted:

it would be better if it just didn't exist

Cogent.

# ? Feb 26, 2017 15:11

LazyMaybe: Aug 18, 2013; oouagh

Seriously though, there's no reason to make Dith not at all usable by FE but totally fine for like, IE, Ne, etc. It's a very annoying restriction which is not based in balance or anything related to gameplay, and even the flavor isn't that great.

This is not the biggest issue with current crawl but it will be the one I complain about the most forever because it is just so incredibly pointless. Dith has no reason to have a fire conduct, it's just a conduct for a conduct's sake.

LazyMaybe fucked around with this message at 15:32 on Feb 26, 2017

# ? Feb 26, 2017 15:23

LordSloth: Mar 7, 2008; Disgruntled (IT) Employee

Dithmenos flame hate had more of an impact when wands of fire were a thing, and much better than lightning wands. Now it's only one school of magic and a lone brand that has two-three rough equivalents. With how reliable that fire wand was it could actually influence how quickly I joined dithmenos, which led to some interesting situations. Even with Evo buffs I think I heard about, I still often toggle pickup off for lightning.

# ? Feb 26, 2017 15:33

Heithinn Grasida: Mar 28, 2005; ...must attack and fall upon them with a gallant bearing and a fearless heart, and, if possible, vanquish and destroy them, even though they have for armour the shells of a certain fish, that they say are harder than diamonds, and in place of swords wield trenchant blades of Damascus steel...

IronicDongz posted:

it would be better if it just didn't exist

SKULL.GIF posted:
Cogent.

Okay, I realize this is a meta-joke and I am being a huge rear end in a top hat. But, even so, I want to make a point about "crawl culture".

These kind of statements demonstrate a pernicious aspect of many of the primary and most influential posts about crawl, which is that people can't phrase their opinions without sarcasm and gross exaggeration and rarely provide significantly fleshed out reasoning to support what they say beyond "I'm a good player and I say this is true." The people most guilty of that are, in fact, very good players and know an enormous amount about the game. But many of them state their opinions as if they are gospel and contribute to actual discussion of the game far less meaningfully than their skill should allow. Of course, a few posters in tavern write good posts and devs themselves in ##crawl-dev typically give solid justification for their opinions. But by and large, reading the tavern, or ##crawl or some of the frequent, non-dev posters in ##crawl-dev, one would assume that the game's design is heavily influenced by a pissing contest. Memes like, " the game ends at lair", "the game has far too much experience", or "if you can cast a high level spell, you have won the game, full stop" are simply absurd distortions of what most people experience when they play the game, and almost certainly distorted representations of the true experience of all but a very few of the people who actually post them. Yet, since they're repeated so frequently, reading official channels of discussion about the game would lead one to the belief that they are the holy truth. I don't think there is anything anyone can do to change that, but I do want to point it out as a serious flaw in discussion of the game.

# ? Feb 26, 2017 16:09

Fitzy Fitz: May 14, 2005

Frog flavor is good. I wish I hadn't just finished a game with one!

# ? Feb 26, 2017 17:03

Decrepus: May 21, 2008; In the end, his dominion did not touch a single poster.

GenericOverusedName posted:

I still find it weird the spooky shadow god hates fire but doesn't give a gently caress about like, Corona.

Corona with Fruit.

# ? Feb 26, 2017 17:14

Ramc: May 4, 2008; Bringing your thread to a screeching halt, guaranteed.

Heithinn Grasida posted:

Okay, I realize this is a meta-joke and I am being a huge rear end in a top hat. But, even so, I want to make a point about "crawl culture".

These kind of statements demonstrate a pernicious aspect of many of the primary and most influential posts about crawl, which is that people can't phrase their opinions without sarcasm and gross exaggeration and rarely provide significantly fleshed out reasoning to support what they say beyond "I'm a good player and I say this is true." The people most guilty of that are, in fact, very good players and know an enormous amount about the game. But many of them state their opinions as if they are gospel and contribute to actual discussion of the game far less meaningfully than their skill should allow. Of course, a few posters in tavern write good posts and devs themselves in ##crawl-dev typically give solid justification for their opinions. But by and large, reading the tavern, or ##crawl or some of the frequent, non-dev posters in ##crawl-dev, one would assume that the game's design is heavily influenced by a pissing contest. Memes like, " the game ends at lair", "the game has far too much experience", or "if you can cast a high level spell, you have won the game, full stop" are simply absurd distortions of what most people experience when they play the game, and almost certainly distorted representations of the true experience of all but a very few of the people who actually post them. Yet, since they're repeated so frequently, reading official channels of discussion about the game would lead one to the belief that they are the holy truth. I don't think there is anything anyone can do to change that, but I do want to point it out as a serious flaw in discussion of the game.

Excuse me, sir, this is a Dunkin Donuts drive-thru.

# ? Feb 26, 2017 19:11

Internet Kraken: Apr 24, 2010; slightly amused

Dith's fire conduct is really annoying for a long blades user that gets Swamp as a Lair branch.

# ? Feb 26, 2017 21:24

PleasingFungus: Oct 10, 2012; idiot asshole bitch who should fuck off

Ramc posted:

Excuse me, sir, this is a Dunkin Donuts drive-thru.

but, like: HG isn't wrong

crawl communities have a reputation for being 'toxic' for a reason!

# ? Feb 26, 2017 21:39

Darox: Nov 10, 2012

Internet Kraken posted:

Dith's fire conduct is really annoying for a long blades user that gets Swamp as a Lair branch.

It's especially annoying because Dith encourages long blades use because they synergize with the umbra and they crosstrain with short blades which synergize with everything.

# ? Feb 26, 2017 22:04

Floodkiller: May 31, 2011

PleasingFungus posted:

but, like: HG isn't wrong

crawl communities have a reputation for being 'toxic' for a reason!

I didn't know we were brainstorming new poison magic spells. How does this one work in-game?

# ? Feb 27, 2017 00:55

Haifisch: Nov 13, 2010; Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!; Taco Defender

Tavern's Toxic Radiance

Berserks, poisons, and confuses enemies within LOS.

# ? Feb 27, 2017 01:11

vOv: Feb 8, 2014

I am curious what the most lethal floors are in terms of 'what percent of characters that made it to this floor died on it'. I'm betting that it'd be D1-3, branch ends, and Z:5.

# ? Feb 27, 2017 01:22

Emmideer: Oct 20, 2011; Lovely night, no?; Grimey Drawer

I just found a scarf of resistance and a +6 amulet of reflection on D1 as a Minotaur fighter. Can't wait until my mandatory D2 fight with Sigmund!

edit: Instead I got shafted from D4 to D7. Oh boy! Hope I survive.

editedit: Pikel'd.

Emmideer fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Feb 27, 2017

# ? Feb 27, 2017 01:59

meatpath: Feb 13, 2003

vOv posted:

I am curious what the most lethal floors are in terms of 'what percent of characters that made it to this floor died on it'. I'm betting that it'd be D1-3, branch ends, and Z:5.

I'm pretty certain the bot can pull that data, but I don't know the commands. I've seen stats like that in gammafunk streams in the past.

# ? Feb 27, 2017 03:38

Decrepus: May 21, 2008; In the end, his dominion did not touch a single poster.

vOv posted:

I am curious what the most lethal floors are in terms of 'what percent of characters that made it to this floor died on it'. I'm betting that it'd be D1-3, branch ends, and Z:5.

You hear the ticking of an ancient clock. You die...

# ? Feb 27, 2017 03:46

rchandra: Apr 30, 2013

meatpath posted:

I'm pretty certain the bot can pull that data, but I don't know the commands. I've seen stats like that in gammafunk streams in the past.

The general form is "!lm * recent begin / lg:place=d:1" where "begin" is a milestone in the place you want, and replace d:1 with the right place - but that query itself takes too long and is killed by Sequell, too many games.

Though since everybody reaches d:1 we can get it:

code:

rchandra: !lg * recent / d:1
Sequell: 280914/1322233 games for * (recent): N=280914/1322233 (21.25%)

rchandra: !lg * !boring recent / d:1
Sequell: 204662/1174509 games for * (!boring recent): N=204662/1174509 (17.43%)

Zot:5 is pretty lethal:

code:

 rchandra: !lm * recent br.end=zot / lg:place=zot:5
Sequell: 1128/14713 milestones for * (recent br.end=zot): N=1128/14713 (7.67%)

# ? Feb 27, 2017 04:05

Kaedric: Sep 5, 2000

vOv posted:

I am curious what the most lethal floors are in terms of 'what percent of characters that made it to this floor died on it'. I'm betting that it'd be D1-3, branch ends, and Z:5.

Based on my own experience I'd say choosing (stupidly, every time!) to enter Elf:3 usually ends in losing a character.

# ? Feb 27, 2017 04:44

PotatoManJack: Nov 9, 2009

I started a MiFi with the plan of becoming a 2-handed axe cleaver, but the game seems to really dislike that plan. I got an early TSO shrine so figured, what the heck. The game keeps throwing artefact shields at me, and now has just given me an anti-magic Triple Sword. It's basically saying "Use a shield, but if you really must go two-handed, go sword!"

I should probably just go with the shields, fine a broad axe to TSO-brand and take a 3-rune win, but I keep hoping an Executioner's Axe will appear that I can give Holy Wrath and go to town.

# ? Feb 27, 2017 07:13

Fitzy Fitz: May 14, 2005

Man, I know scrolls of acquirement can give mundane poo poo, but -6 gloves??

# ? Feb 27, 2017 19:53

FulsomFrank: Sep 11, 2005; Hard on for love

Holy christ that's a bad acquirement.

I didn't know people ever did anything aside from armour for the most part, but I did get an Annihilations book last time so that's okay I guess.

# ? Feb 27, 2017 20:00

Carados: Jan 28, 2009; We're a couple, when our bodies double.

If I have fireball memorized, does delayed fireball cost 2 levels? Do I amnesia fireball before I memorize it?

# ? Feb 27, 2017 20:20

SKULL.GIF: Jan 20, 2017

Carados posted:

If I have fireball memorized, does delayed fireball cost 2 levels? Do I amnesia fireball before I memorize it?

No, it's an "upgrade" to Fireball and you get the discount. If you amnesia Fireball first, you have to pay full price.

(Delayed Fireball is replaced with Ignition in 0.20, as a heads up.)

# ? Feb 27, 2017 20:21

Devlan Mud: Apr 10, 2006; I'll hear your stories when we come back, alright?

The increased Hopkins LoS and improved aptitudes and stats make them a lot more interesting to play, the LoS change in particular makes wide open floors really tricky. They're much more interesting to play than their original incarnation.

# ? Feb 27, 2017 20:53

Buane: Nov 28, 2005; When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll

So, newbie question...what the heck is the strategy supposed to be after you grab the Orb? This was the first time I'd ever had a game that I even got 3 runes in, much less reached the Orb...and I was able to fight/climb my way back up to Zot 1 before I was overrun and killed horribly. Multiple Hell Sentinels hitting me from afar for 42 damage each wasn't something I had any answer for. Enemies were spawning practically non-stop, I literally ran out of javelins during the escape and burned through my remaining good consumables in just a floor or two. I was a Gargoyle Fighter who worshipped Cheibriados, so running like hell wasn't a real option. I had to pop Step From Time or I would have died even earlier in the escape. I had absolutely no chance of making it 15 more floors.

I'm sure it was mostly just inexperience...but are there any strategy tips for somehow not getting overrun by dozens of enemies during this? I was able to handle Zot5 pretty easily, to be honest, and was amazed how ridiculous things got after that. Especially after reading in this thread a lot how Zot5 is the danger, I guess maybe I just expected the escape run to be more of a nuisance rather than The Hardest Part Of The Game.

# ? Feb 27, 2017 23:07

cheetah7071: Oct 20, 2010; honk honk; College Slice

You mostly got unlucky. However, here's some tips:

--Your goal is to make it to the up stairs with your hp intact. Sometimes that means fighting, and sometimes running (usually running for strong enemies)
--Learn regeneration, and cast that to heal on the go instead of resting, which lets enemies spawn
--Your consumables won't do anything once you've won. Spend them liberally--especially haste and blinking, which directly contribute to making it to the stairs fast. Don't be afraid to chain them--it doesn't matter if glow mutates you once you win
--Wands of digging can often turn long walks to the stairs into short trips. Bring one with you into zot

# ? Feb 27, 2017 23:13

LordSloth: Mar 7, 2008; Disgruntled (IT) Employee

Buane posted:

So, newbie question...what the heck is the strategy supposed to be after you grab the Orb? This was the first time I'd ever had a game that I even got 3 runes in, much less reached the Orb...and I was able to fight/climb my way back up to Zot 1 before I was overrun and killed horribly. Multiple Hell Sentinels hitting me from afar for 42 damage each wasn't something I had any answer for. Enemies were spawning practically non-stop, I literally ran out of javelins during the escape and burned through my remaining good consumables in just a floor or two. I was a Gargoyle Fighter who worshipped Cheibriados, so running like hell wasn't a real option. I had to pop Step From Time or I would have died even earlier in the escape. I had absolutely no chance of making it 15 more floors.

I'm sure it was mostly just inexperience...but are there any strategy tips for somehow not getting overrun by dozens of enemies during this? I was able to handle Zot5 pretty easily, to be honest, and was amazed how ridiculous things got after that. Especially after reading in this thread a lot how Zot5 is the danger, I guess maybe I just expected the escape run to be more of a nuisance rather than The Hardest Part Of The Game.

Encountering multiple hell sentinels is pretty much amazingly bad luck. It's rare to encounter more than one at a time, I'd consider them one of the three top non-unique enemies of the game - I'd rather fight a random panlord most of the time. My previous Chei ascensions I might have seen just one or two on the way out, I'd have to pull up the log or replay to actually know.

cheetah7071's covered most of the stuff, so I only have a little to add.

Teleports still work, but are much slower, taking 5-9 extra turns. Consider using them at the first sign of trouble (before you even get hit) if you're nowhere near the next staircase. Tele traps are still instant. Blinks become random, but you can manipulate the outcome with LOS (fog, corners, doors).
Worried about some mob following you up a staircase? Just use temporal distortion and you'll open up a gap to go up.
Worshipping Cheibriados, don't potion of haste like suggested. Potions of magic will be handy for Step from Time, Ambrosia could be useful if you're resting on an up staircase.
Shift-g travel will pick the shortest path to the surface, although it doesn't know about any emergency hatches you didn't take. It will also miss any opportunities to Dig or Fly as a shortcut.
As a Cheibriados worshipper, passwall is quicker than walking.

LordSloth fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Feb 27, 2017

# ? Feb 27, 2017 23:39

Yngwie Mangosteen: Aug 23, 2007

Fitzy Fitz posted:

Man, I know scrolls of acquirement can give mundane poo poo, but -6 gloves??

This is to prevent people from using acquirement to get good equipment in a way that could be 'cheesy' or possibly to accrue minor amounts of xp without danger in some edge cases.

# ? Feb 27, 2017 23:51

Devlan Mud: Apr 10, 2006; I'll hear your stories when we come back, alright?

So if you have the inhibited regeneration mutation, you don't regen HP if there's say, a submerged swamp worm SOMEWHERE in the swamp in your LoS range, which let me tell you is making clearing the swamp real lovely for me as a Hopkins. Dunno if that's intended or not, really.

# ? Feb 28, 2017 00:40

Haifisch: Nov 13, 2010; Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!; Taco Defender

cheetah7071 posted:

You mostly got unlucky. However, here's some tips:

--Your goal is to make it to the up stairs with your hp intact. Sometimes that means fighting, and sometimes running (usually running for strong enemies)
--Learn regeneration, and cast that to heal on the go instead of resting, which lets enemies spawn
--Your consumables won't do anything once you've won. Spend them liberally--especially haste and blinking, which directly contribute to making it to the stairs fast. Don't be afraid to chain them--it doesn't matter if glow mutates you once you win
--Wands of digging can often turn long walks to the stairs into short trips. Bring one with you into zot

As for the first point, running is superior unless fighting is the only way to get to the stairs(even then, you sometimes might be better popping a tele and gunning for a different stair). The longer you're on a floor, the more chances nasty poo poo has to spawn. Make sure you're using ctrl-g for the most efficient route to d1, or using shift-X then < to get the most efficient routes to upstairs(this includes unused hatches, unlike ctrl-g). If an enemy is next to you when you're on upstairs, stay on the floor to kill them so that any new spawns get left behind when you go up.

I'd also add scrolls of fog to point 3, especially for a chei character. This can help prevent things like Hell Sentinels from murdering you as you run.

# ? Feb 28, 2017 00:52

Mystery Prize: Nov 7, 2010

So as it would turn out, the Mana Shield and Powered by Pain Demonspawn mutations are pretty absurd together. Spirit Shield is already a great ability, and I regenerate a ton of MP whenever I get hit sufficiently hard. I'm pure melee but have been leveling Spellcasting just for more max MP.

# ? Feb 28, 2017 04:01

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# ? May 14, 2024 00:00

Panic! at Nabisco: Jun 6, 2007; it seemed like a good idea at the time

Mystery Prize posted:

So as it would turn out, the Mana Shield and Powered by Pain Demonspawn mutations are pretty absurd together. Spirit Shield is already a great ability, and I regenerate a ton of MP whenever I get hit sufficiently hard. I'm pure melee but have been leveling Spellcasting just for more max MP.

It's like you're really a vine stalker :v:

# ? Feb 28, 2017 06:05

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