|
Lestaki posted:Speaking of Bael, this pose made me smile. McGillis is such a dork sometimes. It could just be Trooper versus Grimgerde round two, with McGillis as the superb technical pilot in the agile, lightly-armed suit going up against a fast but clumsy behemoth. He can even still press Gaelio's buttons about Almiria. Of course, Gaelio's had too much development for the result to be the same, but I can see McGillis pushing him surprisingly hard. Mind you, there's a simple alternative of the Helmwige and Bael double-teaming Gaelio. The Kimaris Vidar certainly has enough weapons to make it a match for two suits at once.
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 23:50
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 00:14 |
|
|
I hope Julietta survives. She's such a big, drat hero this episode. Except, you know, on the wrong (relatively speaking) side. Plus I think her suit is the coolest one, it and the Vidar.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 02:25
|
|
|
I'm looking for a track in the OST (it's from the first season iirc). It's the theme that plays whenever poo poo gets real, the rousing Celtic-sounding one. Does anyone have its name?
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 03:25
|
|
|
Mordja posted:I hope Julietta survives. She's such a big, drat hero this episode. Except, you know, on the wrong (relatively speaking) side. Vetinari feels like an appropriate thinker for this situation. "I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are good people and bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides." (I also think Rustal would agree with "They think they want good government and justice for all, Vimes, yet what is it they really crave, deep in their hearts? Only that things go on as normal and tomorrow is pretty much like today.")
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 03:35
|
|
|
Speaking of Azee makes me think of the leftovers of turbines, last minute rescue possibly? I mean, Atra must live to produce the heir to Mika, so clearly the ship escapes or something. Also since real dainsielfs are made out of mobile suit frame metal, where are they getting all their ammo Or how exactly big was the stockpile that Iok cracked open for his petty vengence exactly?
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 04:23
|
|
|
I'm curious, did they ever state exactly what made the railguns banned? I mean they're horrifyingly effective weapons but "horrifyingly effective weapon' being banned would outlaw half of Mika's suit on its own.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 05:32
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:I'm curious, did they ever state exactly what made the railguns banned? I mean they're horrifyingly effective weapons but "horrifyingly effective weapon' being banned would outlaw half of Mika's suit on its own. Presumably for the same reason that nobles tried to ban crossbows and rifles. Without the railguns, no-one but an ace pilot is going to be a threat to Gjallarhorn. People like Mika and Amida can take down a Graze if they get a mobile suit, but an average pilot will get killed by weight of numbers pretty quickly. With the railguns, a suit can get in a sniper position, blow a few VIPs to hell before he gets dealt with. It's basically removing a threat to their power under the guise of humanitarian motives. Standard 'horn MO.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 05:40
|
|
|
That might have something to do with it, but given how rare ship-to-ship kills are in this setting outside of Dainsleif or however the gently caress it's spelled usage, and space colonies existing and likely being made of the same material, I'd hazard a guess that it's also to prevent some jackass from going off half-cocked and blowing a hole in some space bubble somewhere, killing a shitload of people/irreparably damaging vital infrastructure that can no longer be replaced. There's also the fact that rods-from-god are proposed as a nuke alternative for a reason, so it's also possible that Dainsleifs just happened to fall under a unilateral WMD ban or something, and people still carry them around anyway because of the powerful niche they occupy in naval warfare.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 06:03
|
|
|
Psycho Landlord posted:That might have something to do with it, but given how rare ship-to-ship kills are in this setting outside of Dainsleif or however the gently caress it's spelled usage, and space colonies existing and likely being made of the same material, I'd hazard a guess that it's also to prevent some jackass from going off half-cocked and blowing a hole in some space bubble somewhere, killing a shitload of people/irreparably damaging vital infrastructure that can no longer be replaced. Except that concept never really panned out for a number of reasons - for one they're really not a nuke alternative. Despite what some fantastical claims might say, you have to get far, far higher in speed than a railgun for something the size of a Dainsleif to have a serious destructive radius. A telephone pole-sized rod hitting at Mach 10 (significantly faster than the railguns currently being tested) impacts with roughly the force of ~12 tons of TNT - certainly a lot, but for an object that size not even out of the range of yields conventional missiles of similar size can carry. Dainsleifs are almost certainly banned because they're a threat to Gjallarhorn's control, not because they're real WMDs. More to the point, there's absolutely nothing a Dainsleif could do against a civilian target that a rod made of a different material fired from the railgun could - their strength is in their penetrative power, and you don't need that to kill civilian targets. And railguns themselves aren't actually banned - hell, the HE rounds Tekkadan came up with would probably do more damage to civilian targets than a Dainsleif. You'd basically be using an extremely distinctive, and insanely expensive, weapon to do something that could be accomplished just as well with some bombs. They're not exactly punching huge holes either, so bar massed volleys they're not a huge threat to colonies - sort of like using an APFSDS against a house. Lord Koth fucked around with this message at 06:42 on Feb 27, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 06:40
|
|
|
Rustal at least is using them better (He is shooting at enemy ships rather then fleeing and surrendering civilians) and his usage is technically legal. Said enemy is also a powerful rebellion. Honestly using the Deinslaifs here is the best move he could make. This is big enough situation that warrants using them rather then some pirates or mercenaries or fleeing civilians. Plus using them will save the lives of his forces in the long run as utterly decimating the enemy with them, this means less of the enemy his attacking his forces. Plus Rustal made several comments this episode that he partially expected McGillis to surrender and that he would be willing to accept it. I am thinking that Tekkadan may actually retreat or surrender next episode.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 06:44
|
|
|
Lord Koth posted:Except that concept never really panned out for a number of reasons - for one they're really not a nuke alternative. Despite what some fantastical claims might say, you have to get far, far higher in speed than a railgun for something the size of a Dainsleif to have a serious destructive radius. A telephone pole-sized rod hitting at Mach 10 (significantly faster than the railguns currently being tested) impacts with roughly the force of ~12 tons of TNT - certainly a lot, but for an object that size not even out of the range of yields conventional missiles of similar size can carry. The weapons themselves are banned, McGillis helped Tekkadan get the Flauros into an edge case where it's okay for them so long as it isn't firing the Nanolaminate rounds it's supposed to. Jasley and Iok's whole scheme was dinging the Turbines for possession of the weapons. Also Rustal's Dainsleifs are likely skirting the same legality with "regular" ammo as well.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 07:26
|
|
|
chiasaur11 posted:Presumably for the same reason that nobles tried to ban crossbows and rifles. Actually, this ban was from the Second Lateran Council under the Pope Innocent III. This was a ban on using bows or crossbows on fellow Christians, with violators being denied a Christian burial. It was probably part of a general anti-military message, since the same council condemned tournaments and jousting, with violators being denied a Christian burial. The only condemnation that applied to all humanity was a curse against anyone who used incendiaries against any human beings. What you're really thinking of are wheellock guns. Wheellocks were the first type of gun that could actually be concealed for assassination. So several princes and emperors banned them when these guns first appeared. Returning to the anime, the ban on using bows or crossbows on fellow Christians would be closer to banning all high caliber cannons in IBO. But banning Deinslaifs probably closer to trying to ban Wheellocks. A Deinslaifs might get lucky and take down a high ranking Gjallarhorn official in their mobile suit or battleship. But massed autocannons are more dangerous to mobile workers than to mobile suits.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 07:46
|
|
|
Lord Koth posted:Dainsleifs are almost certainly banned because they're a threat to Gjallarhorn's control, not because they're real WMDs. More to the point, there's absolutely nothing a Dainsleif could do against a civilian target that a rod made of a different material fired from the railgun could - their strength is in their penetrative power, and you don't need that to kill civilian targets. And railguns themselves aren't actually banned - hell, the HE rounds Tekkadan came up with would probably do more damage to civilian targets than a Dainsleif. You'd basically be using an extremely distinctive, and insanely expensive, weapon to do something that could be accomplished just as well with some bombs. They're not exactly punching huge holes either, so bar massed volleys they're not a huge threat to colonies - sort of like using an APFSDS against a house. Difference being if you fired off one of those HE shells from orbit, more than likely it would burn up in atmo and not do poo poo. You fire off a Dainsleif rod from orbit though , which is apparently made of the fancy materials all these super-tough mobile suits are, and it's more likely to survive reentry and actually hit whatever it's aimed at. Not necessarily with an atomic-scale blast, sure, but these are fancy future railguns in a gundam show firing some kind of crazy space metal rod, so it's not too much of a stretch to assume it's still going to wreck everything in a decent area and nobody in IBO has demonstrated anything resembling interception capabilities that could stop something fired out of a railgun from orbit. And when it comes to colonies, all you have to do is punch a hole in that bigass hab bubble we keep seeing at the Teiwaz place, and bye-bye atmosphere, hello failure cascade. I'm not saying the Horn banned them purely for humanitarian reasons and not because they're also effective force multipliers against their primarily MS and spaceship forces, but there are some pretty compelling humanitarian reasons to keep them out of people's hands here. Matter of fact, I'm pretty sure there was a bit in today's episode that was some dude with a Dainsleif adjusting his aim in order to keep earth out his line of fire - which was smart, because every shot that hit a Gjallarhorn ship looked like it over penetrated.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 08:38
|
|
|
Psycho Landlord posted:Difference being if you fired off one of those HE shells from orbit, more than likely it would burn up in atmo and not do poo poo. You fire off a Dainsleif rod from orbit though , which is apparently made of the fancy materials all these super-tough mobile suits are, and it's more likely to survive reentry and actually hit whatever it's aimed at. Not necessarily with an atomic-scale blast, sure, but these are fancy future railguns in a gundam show firing some kind of crazy space metal rod, so it's not too much of a stretch to assume it's still going to wreck everything in a decent area and nobody in IBO has demonstrated anything resembling interception capabilities that could stop something fired out of a railgun from orbit. And when it comes to colonies, all you have to do is punch a hole in that bigass hab bubble we keep seeing at the Teiwaz place, and bye-bye atmosphere, hello failure cascade. I'd be inclined to say that the rationale behind banning them is as a protection measure for colonies. The dainslief is the closest thing we have seen to something like the Agni from seed. Basically all it takes is some twitchy or unscrupulous pilot to fire one of those near a colony and you are looking at thousands of dead on the good end of things. A dainslief firing line would Swiss cheese a colony in a way few weapons from the series seem like they would. Mind you I'm sure that is mostly just rationale. Banning them because they are effective against gjallerhorn's method of combat seems way more obvious.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 08:46
|
|
|
Remember that in Season One, the Isaribi hit a Gjallarhorn space station at high speed and they just bounced off each other. I wouldn't be surprised if space colonies are similarly tough, if only because they're really big and need to protect themselves against space debris. If a Dainsleif can get through that, then yeah, that's a pretty unique and troubling issue. And yes, I do suspect that the Arianrhod Fleet's supply of Dainsleifs will be a plot point. The big spears are rare and ancient Calamity War weapons, and even Teiwaz, consistently shown to be the solar system's best modern arms manufacturers, had a nightmare of a time making just one. They're going to burn through their stash, leaving them with no way to protect themselves and the solar system from McGillis's no-doubt-horrifying countermove.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 11:26
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:Remember that in Season One, the Isaribi hit a Gjallarhorn space station at high speed and they just bounced off each other. I wouldn't be surprised if space colonies are similarly tough, if only because they're really big and need to protect themselves against space debris. If a Dainsleif can get through that, then yeah, that's a pretty unique and troubling issue. I think you need to go study up on your physics and the difference between a large blunt-headed object on a glancing impact and a direct hit applying X amount of force concentrated to a small area
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 11:35
|
|
|
Neddy Seagoon posted:I think you need to go study up on your physics and the difference between a large blunt-headed object on a glancing impact and a direct hit applying X amount of force concentrated to a small area I'm not saying it's impossible for a Dainsleif to get through station armour, I'm saying that it's probably the only kind of ammunition that can, which is a reason to ban 'em. Remember, also, that Dainsleifs remove entire ships' bridges, while a direct hit from a 130mm gun only cracked the glass on the bridge of Iok's flagship (that same engagement showed what happens when a Gjallarhorn warship gets rammed, and it's not pretty, indicating that their stations are really, really tough).
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 11:55
|
|
|
To be honest, I'm confused about Dainsleifs, they just fire a metal rod at extremely high speed, right? We keep seeing them embed into ships hulls, but besides cutting through mobile suits (which at that range seems like luck) I don't see why they are a big deal? I must have missed something.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 12:08
|
|
|
This is a world without beam rifles and particle cannons after all. When there's nothing like Freedom Gundam beam-spamming or a giant colony laser, a barrage of railguns really is a Big Deal. There's also a bit more focus on the horrifying after-effects of trying to escape from a sinking ship in space, normally these sorts of series-end megaweapons just vapourise everything they hit.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 12:21
|
|
|
BizarroAzrael posted:To be honest, I'm confused about Dainsleifs, they just fire a metal rod at extremely high speed, right? We keep seeing them embed into ships hulls, but besides cutting through mobile suits (which at that range seems like luck) I don't see why they are a big deal? I must have missed something. They're MS-portable artillery that kills Battleships. Look at the sheer difference one round of Dainsleif barrages did to McGillis' entire fleet. With Rugal actively holding back because he doesn't want to kill everyone. And then he had them reload and fire again. From a relatively-secure front, with the resources to keep doing that over and over while McGillis' fleet withers into scrap.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 12:24
|
|
|
Yeah, Dainsleifs are ultra-sharp spears that are made of a special ultra-hard alloy, making them one of the few weapons that can reliably penetrate nanolaminate armour, kind of like the Grimgerde's swords. They are also designed to be fired at incredibly high speeds by highly accurate guns, meaning that in a setting where even a 300mm howitzer as big as the suit carrying it can only disable an enemy suit with a point-blank shot (or multiple lucky hits at range), we suddenly have weapons that can sweep through entire enemy fleets without letting them get close enough to respond.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 12:30
|
|
|
Also maybe consider this; Considering they're wielding (I assume) 300-odd-year-old MS-portable units left over from the Calamity War, what do you think Capital Ship-scale ones mounted into a Battleship would do to a fleet? Or a planet?
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 12:39
|
|
|
Going by Gundam tropes we can expect Choco man to pull out some WMDs of his own. However at this point I wouldn't be surprised if he really turns out to be just a delusional space dork and the horror is not finding out that you have done a deal with the devil but that you got the side role so he can play at being his childhood hero.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 12:42
|
|
|
genericnick posted:Going by Gundam tropes we can expect Choco man to pull out some WMDs of his own. However at this point I wouldn't be surprised if he really turns out to be just a delusional space dork and the horror is not finding out that you have done a deal with the devil but that you got the side role so he can play at being his childhood hero. His only trump card was the Bael Gundam and expecting all of the Seven Stars to fall into line when he paraded it about before them. Everything since has been McGillis trying to pull a win out of his rear end with Tekkadan's help.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 12:54
|
|
|
Thr accuracy of the railguns is more scary than anything else. They're hitting mobile suits in space with good percentage.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 13:01
|
|
|
Honestly surprises me we haven't seen any mounted to a battleship yet. I'd think you could get much better accuracy that way.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 13:05
|
|
|
So, why did that one dainsleif shot by Rustal's agent have a ton of secondary detonations like a stereotypical beam weapon, but Shino's shot just barely misses Rustal's ship and has absolutely no effect?  Luminaflare posted:Honestly surprises me we haven't seen any mounted to a battleship yet. I'd think you could get much better accuracy that way. Well, it seems Gjallarhorn actually abandoned dainsleif tech since the Calamity War, or dainsleif are considered too specialized to switch out a ship's armament for it. Way easier to just be able to equip some mobile suits with it than to have to take a ship into dock for it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 13:07
|
|
|
Mcgillis really expected the other seven stars forces, probably would have gotten them without gaileo there to gently caress him over (rustal ain't dumb.) With those he would have had equal numbers to rustals fleet plus tekkadan, since he was holding his own with half and tekkadan (and maybe slowly winning) he would have curbstomped through rustal.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 13:09
|
|
|
Dainsleifs are basically filling the same role as UC beam weapons, except less MS-portable. They're the scary, long-range, extremely accurate, one-shot-kill superweapon, and they're treated the way they are as a result. It's good.Argas posted:So, why did that one dainsleif shot by Rustal's agent have a ton of secondary detonations like a stereotypical beam weapon, but Shino's shot just barely misses Rustal's ship and has absolutely no effect? Rule of cool, I'm pretty sure. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 13:11 on Feb 27, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 13:09
|
|
|
Argas posted:So, why did that one dainsleif shot by Rustal's agent have a ton of secondary detonations like a stereotypical beam weapon, but Shino's shot just barely misses Rustal's ship and has absolutely no effect? Each of those explosions was a mobile suit getting cut in half by a dainsleif. one round can cut through multiple suits. These are weapons meant to one shot mobile armor after all.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 13:10
|
|
|
Argas posted:So, why did that one dainsleif shot by Rustal's agent have a ton of secondary detonations like a stereotypical beam weapon, but Shino's shot just barely misses Rustal's ship and has absolutely no effect? You mean the one meant as a massively visible spectacle to make certain everyone saw Big Bad McGillis Shot First?
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 13:10
|
|
|
Lemon-Lime posted:Rule of cool, I'm pretty sure. Most likely, it's just irksome to see this sort of inconsistency in the same drat episode as a major plot point as opposed to a random background detail.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 13:10
|
|
|
Argas posted:Most likely, it's just irksome to see this sort of inconsistency in the same drat episode as a major plot point as opposed to a random background detail. I mean, if it bugs you, the in-universe explanation is that there was nothing behind Rustal's ship for the shot to hit. The first dainsleif shot obviously hit several MSes in succession.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 13:12
|
|
|
Lemon-Lime posted:I mean, if it bugs you, the in-universe explanation is that there was nothing behind Rustal's ship for the shot to hit. The first dainsleif shot obviously hit several MSes in succession.  Edit: Actually, considering things, those might be detonations after a MS has been sheared into multiple pieces. Still bugs me, just less. Argas fucked around with this message at 13:16 on Feb 27, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 13:13
|
|
|
A single volley of them annihilated most of chocomans fleet. Shino didnt get blown up because it "just" hit its arm. Anything getting hit close to center of mass would have blown up.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 13:19
|
|
|
Cao Ni Ma posted:A single volley of them annihilated most of chocomans fleet. Shino didnt get blown up because it "just" hit its arm. Anything getting hit close to center of mass would have blown up. His mobile suit didn't explode but there were certainly explosions after he got hit.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 13:21
|
|
|
genericnick posted:Going by Gundam tropes we can expect Choco man to pull out some WMDs of his own. However at this point I wouldn't be surprised if he really turns out to be just a delusional space dork and the horror is not finding out that you have done a deal with the devil but that you got the side role so he can play at being his childhood hero. I'm thinking he's probably a delusional space dork, which is exactly why he's going to resort to something utterly terrifying in desperation, at which point the survivors are going to have to band together to stop it (Julietta still hasn't had her big Alaya-Vijnana dilemma yet, so there has to be another battle after this one).
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 13:23
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:I'm thinking he's probably a delusional space dork, which is exactly why he's going to resort to something utterly terrifying in desperation, at which point the survivors are going to have to band together to stop it (Julietta still hasn't had her big Alaya-Vijnana dilemma yet, so there has to be another battle after this one). Personally I think he won't be able to pull anything out of his rear end. But I'd love to see him do it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 13:26
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:I'm thinking he's probably a delusional space dork, which is exactly why he's going to resort to something utterly terrifying in desperation, at which point the survivors are going to have to band together to stop it (Julietta still hasn't had her big Alaya-Vijnana dilemma yet, so there has to be another battle after this one). No, he isn't. His entire goddamn gambit has been "Look at me, I made Bael work! OBEY ME!" and McGillis blew that because he didn't anticipate the Seven Stars deciding to collectively sit on the sidelines and see who kills the other first.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 13:28
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 00:14 |
|
|
Neddy Seagoon posted:No, he isn't. His entire goddamn gambit has been "Look at me, I made Bael work! OBEY ME!" and McGillis blew that because he didn't anticipate the Seven Stars deciding to collectively sit on the sidelines and see who kills the other first. I'm not saying he has some carefully calculated Plan B. I'm saying there's good odds on him getting pushed hard enough to go 'gently caress it, kill everything'. Maybe the mobile armour thing (remember that destroying the Hashmal wasn't his Plan A, just a useful suggestion he got from Iok), maybe dropping some of the OERJF's stations on Earth as a distraction to cover his retreat, maybe something else. The way I see it, Rustal has cornered a man with nothing to lose and little affection for the world, and that tends to end poorly.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 13:37
|
|