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OwlFancier posted:Would it? And there's be no anti Lib Dem backlash which marred the Tory-LD referendum. So I guess yeah it probably would.
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 14:50 |
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# ? May 24, 2024 15:24 |
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Pissflaps posted:In what way do you find labour MPs bad and incapable? the main one being their inability to run a candidate capable of beating some no hoper like corbyn
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 14:51 |
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Jose posted:the main one being their inability to run a candidate capable of beating some no hoper like corbyn Anything that doesn't centre on the Labour Party leadership?
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 14:53 |
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Alertrelic posted:This is true, though. Blair even literally stated this during one of his earlier interventions. What was blairs quote on this I think I was away
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 14:54 |
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Breath Ray posted:What was blairs quote on this I think I was away That he wouldn't campaign on a left wing platform even if it was the only way to win. Tony Blair posted:“Let me make my position clear: I wouldn’t want to win on an old-fashioned leftist platform. Even if I thought it was the route to victory, I wouldn’t take it.”
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 14:54 |
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Lord of the Llamas posted:That he wouldn't campaign on a left wing platform even if it was the only way to win. What's wrong with him saying that? He's a centre left politician.
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 14:56 |
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Pissflaps posted:Anything that doesn't centre on the Labour Party leadership? Two failed general elections?
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 14:57 |
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Kokoro Wish posted:Two failed general elections? 2010 was always going to be a loss but the 2015 GE for sure
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 14:58 |
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Kokoro Wish posted:Two failed general elections? But each mp won their seat?
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 14:59 |
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Pissflaps posted:What's wrong with him saying that? He's a centre left politician. Nothing. At least he's being honest. It's also the exact position leftists are criticised for over centrism.
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 14:59 |
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Lord of the Llamas posted:Nothing. At least he's being honest. It's also the exact position leftists are criticised for over centrism. mfcrocker posted:So it's almost like most people would like a voice to represent them and are less fussed about winning elections
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 15:10 |
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/26/theresa-may-poised-announce-end-free-movement-new-eu-migrants/quote:Theresa May is next month poised to announce the end of free movement for new EU migrants on the same day that she formally triggers Brexit negotiations.
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 15:10 |
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I'm pretty sure that won't hold up in court, Theresa.
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 15:11 |
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Yeah uh, I don't think you can start negotiating to leave and then unilaterally drop your treaty obligations... I don't think the people you're negotiating with will appreciate that...
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 15:18 |
So what happens if I visit my family back in Germany during the summer? Since I've been in the UK before the cutoff, am I permanently grandfathered, or can I never leave again.
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 15:20 |
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Lunar Suite posted:So what happens if I visit my family back in Germany during the summer? Since I've been in the UK before the cutoff, am I permanently grandfathered, or can I never leave again. What would be the most dickhead position the government could take? Assume they will.
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 15:21 |
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mfcrocker posted:I'm pretty sure that won't hold up in court, Theresa. May: Here's a thing the British people want me to do. EU: You can't do that. May: The EU once again refuse to respect the will of the British people! *approval ratings soar*
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 15:24 |
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Lord of the Llamas posted:Nothing. At least he's being honest. It's also the exact position leftists are criticised for over centrism. I suppose the difference is centre left is proven to be electable and even 2010 and 2015 were pretty close iirc. So confirmation bias as ppl have said and we'll have to give jeremy a fair crack at the whip in 2020 unless he steps down and finds someone more suitable before then.
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 15:24 |
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Lunar Suite posted:So what happens if I visit my family back in Germany during the summer? Since I've been in the UK before the cutoff, am I permanently grandfathered, or can I never leave again. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmtKHdptK0k
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 15:24 |
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mfcrocker posted:I'm pretty sure that won't hold up in court, Theresa. She doesn't care, provided the can is kicked further down the road and the tabs aren't screaming treasonous betrayal. Dollars to doughnuts, a mail acolyte is right now churning out some bollocks about how it's a brave move to protect our sovereignty, probably pulling stock images of "migrants" under which to stick "government fears a lack of action could lead to eleventy million bulgamanians in your town".
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 15:25 |
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I don't understand this.
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 15:34 |
LemonDrizzle posted:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/26/theresa-may-poised-announce-end-free-movement-new-eu-migrants/ (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 15:37 |
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Relevant both here and in Scotpol but putting it here because who wants to deal with those horrid little provincials? http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/scots-to-demand-new-referendum-no-10-fears-jjnzgt8s0 quote:Theresa May is preparing for the Scottish government to call a second independence referendum to coincide with the triggering of Article 50 next month.
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 15:39 |
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Breath Ray posted:I suppose the difference is centre left is proven to be electable and even 2010 and 2015 were pretty close iirc. So confirmation bias as ppl have said and we'll have to give jeremy a fair crack at the whip in 2020 unless he steps down and finds someone more suitable before then. It's a bit late to give Corbyn "a fair crack at the whip"; they've already pissed inside the tent. You can only hold broad coalitions together if each faction is willing to play by the rules, which the centrists obviously weren't willing to do. Unfortunately the left and the right of the Labour party are chained together against a split in mutually assured destruction because of FPTP. I think Jason Cowley of the New Statesmen hit it on the head to say the current state of the Labour party is "too weak to win and too strong to die". Why should the left continue to associate itself with a group of people that employ destructive and abusive tactics to maintain control? Lord of the Llamas fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Feb 27, 2017 |
# ? Feb 27, 2017 15:44 |
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LemonDrizzle posted:"We could end up with half of Romania and Bulgaria coming here if we wait that long." e: Lord of the Llamas posted:Why should the left continue to associate itself with a group of people that employ destructive and abusive tactics to maintain control?
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 15:50 |
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Pissflaps posted:I don't understand this. The idea that electability is worth compromising your values for isn't widely held and, in your case, is unevenly applied as a stick to try and whack a leftist Labour party. The centrists in the party lost both the 2010 and 2015 elections; that doesn't mean they should've suddenly become UKIP to try and win support. Likewise, the Corbynite Labour party shouldn't become centrists despite being obliterated in the polls right now. A Tory government is a big bunch of poo poo, but I have no interest in having Tory-lite either. That got us nowhere.
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 15:51 |
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mfcrocker posted:A Tory government is a big bunch of poo poo, but I have no interest in having Tory-lite either. That got us nowhere. based on what they were promising it got us a tory majority
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 15:52 |
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Jose posted:based on what they were promising it got us a tory majority Yeah, turns out it's pretty hard to out-tory the Tories.
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 15:55 |
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jBrereton posted:gently caress tess. I love your desperate attempt to make everything to do with the Brexit process about my particular vote. I don't pretend I didn't vote for Leave, so you can stop pretending like I try and distance myself from it.
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 16:02 |
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Tesseraction posted:I love your desperate attempt to make everything to do with the Brexit process about my particular vote. You did properly poo poo the bed with this one though
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 16:06 |
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mfcrocker posted:The idea that electability is worth compromising your values for isn't widely held and, in your case, is unevenly applied as a stick to try and whack a leftist Labour party. I agree with you, tending towards political parties being a vehicle for ideology in the most part (at least in an ideal world). However it does show up how terrible an idea whipping for Article 50 was. Why whip for something you are opposed to when you didn't need to except to chase votes?
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 16:06 |
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mfcrocker posted:The centrists in the party lost both the 2010 and 2015 elections; that doesn't mean they should've suddenly become UKIP to try and win support. Likewise, the Corbynite Labour party shouldn't become centrists despite being obliterated in the polls right now. I don't think anybody expects 'Corbynite labour' to become centrists, just to recognise that they're an existential threat to the Labour Party as a parliamentary force.
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 16:07 |
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Pissflaps posted:I don't think anybody expects 'Corbynite labour' to become centrists, just to recognise that they're an existential threat to the Labour Party as a parliamentary force. Bollocks, the major existential threat is the massive swing to the right of pretty much all political discourse in the Western world. A centrist candidate would be absolutely hosed.
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 16:13 |
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mfcrocker posted:You did properly poo poo the bed with this one though I still firmly believe Britain is ultimately better off outside the European Union. This doesn't mean I buy into the hardline Eurosceptic view that the EU has been 'holding us back' or the Kipper xenophobia rejecting free movement of people. This means I'm freely able to say "May is being dumb" about this instant termination of freedom of movement - which as you say probably won't hold up in court.
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 16:14 |
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mfcrocker posted:Bollocks, the major existential threat is the massive swing to the right of pretty much all political discourse in the Western world. A centrist candidate would be absolutely hosed. Why would a party closer to the right be more hosed than one further removed from it?
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 16:17 |
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Tesseraction posted:I still firmly believe Britain is ultimately better off outside the European Union. Sure, we're just saying that this is ignoring a wealth of evidence to the contrary. Pissflaps posted:Why would a party closer to the right be more hosed than one further removed from it? They wouldn't be, which is why I didn't say that. Centrist Labour would be hosed, Corbynite Labour is hosed. Neither is going to win an election in 2020.
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 16:17 |
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Pissflaps posted:I don't think anybody expects 'Corbynite labour' to become centrists, just to recognise that they're an existential threat to the Labour Party as a parliamentary force. Then why should anyone on the same position on the political spectrum as Corbyn bother? In fact why should anyone left of centre bother with British politics at all? You seem to think a working party exists to do either of two things: 1) Become centrist 2) Just do whatever's popular right now gently caress everything?? Here's a question. If Corbyn went hard right, said throw all the immigrants out, cut taxes, cut welfare, said England was the best country ever and everyone else are big bellends and not good, just basically became a giant not-quite-fascist populist and then won the 2020 GE. Would you say this was an effective Corbyn? Would you like to see the Labour party do this in order to win? Would you expect him then to betray this new base and start enacting socialist policies like a reverse Trump (lol) or are you content with just winning?
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 16:17 |
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mfcrocker posted:Sure, we're just saying that this is ignoring a wealth of evidence to the contrary. There's certainly been a fair level of cock-ups from the Tories that compound upon the unavoidable troubles innate to a process like this. I'm not denying these exist either, nor am I asking you to ignore them. I'm just not convinced, even with the gently caress-ups that have been happening, that this is a shitted bed... yet. You can generally trust the Tories to subvert expectations there though.
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 16:21 |
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Regarde Aduck posted:Then why should anyone on the same position on the political spectrum as Corbyn bother? In fact why should anyone left of centre bother with British politics at all? You seem to think a working party exists to do either of two things: 1) Become centrist 2) Just do whatever's popular right now gently caress everything?? I believe there already exists political parties that are further left than Labour traditionally is. They're fringe parties that don't perform very well at elections. The problem is that labour is being turned into one of them. quote:Here's a question. If Corbyn went hard right, said throw all the immigrants out, cut taxes, cut welfare, said England was the best country ever and everyone else are big bellends and not good, just basically became a giant not-quite-fascist populist and then won the 2020 GE. Would you say this was an effective Corbyn? Would you like to see the Labour party do this in order to win? This is bizarre. I'm not waiting on some breathless hyperbolic scenario. I want labour to return to being a completely run, left of centre alternative to the Tories. Corbyn is unable to deliver this.
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 16:21 |
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# ? May 24, 2024 15:24 |
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mfcrocker posted:Centrist Labour would be hosed, Corbynite Labour is hosed. Neither is going to win an election in 2020. I think a centrist labour would be in a better position to capture disillusioned Tory voters. There's no guarantee of victory, but right now labour are guaranteed defeat.
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# ? Feb 27, 2017 16:24 |