OwlFancier posted:

Would it?

Pissflaps posted:

In what way do you find labour MPs bad and incapable?

Jose posted:

the main one being their inability to run a candidate capable of beating some no hoper like corbyn

Alertrelic posted:

This is true, though. Blair even literally stated this during one of his earlier interventions.

Pretty much everything McDonnell said is obviously true. The fact that large sections of the media and PLP are trying to sabotage the leadership doesn't change the fact that Corbyn's team are doing a terrible job on their own, of course, it just exacerbates the issue.

Breath Ray posted:

What was blairs quote on this I think I was away

Tony Blair posted:

“Let me make my position clear: I wouldn’t want to win on an old-fashioned leftist platform. Even if I thought it was the route to victory, I wouldn’t take it.”

Lord of the Llamas posted:

That he wouldn't campaign on a left wing platform even if it was the only way to win.

Pissflaps posted:

Anything that doesn't centre on the Labour Party leadership?

Kokoro Wish posted:

Two failed general elections?

Kokoro Wish posted:

Two failed general elections?

Pissflaps posted:

What's wrong with him saying that? He's a centre left politician.

Lord of the Llamas posted:

Nothing. At least he's being honest. It's also the exact position leftists are criticised for over centrism.

mfcrocker posted:

So it's almost like most people would like a voice to represent them and are less fussed about winning elections

quote:

Theresa May is next month poised to announce the end of free movement for new EU migrants on the same day that she formally triggers Brexit negotiations.
The Prime Minister is expected to say that EU citizens who travel to Britain after she triggers Article 50 will no longer have the automatic right to stay in the UK permanently.
They will instead be subject to migration curbs after Britain leaves the European Union, which could include a new visa regime and restricted access to benefits.
Mrs May is expected to say that EU migrants who arrived in the UK before the "cut-off date" will have their rights protected as long British citizens living elsewhere in Europe are granted the same assurance.
...
The announcement means that the "cut-off date" for EU migrants is likely to be around March 15, once the Government's Article 50 bill has gone through Parliament.
The Prime Minister is expected to appeal to other European Union nations to reach a quick deal on the issue so it can be removed from Brexit negotiations as soon as possible.
It is likely to put her in conflict with the European Union, which has been pushing for Mrs May to delay the cut-off date until 2019. However ministers have raised concerns that waiting until the end of negotiations will lead to a huge surge in the number of EU migrants coming to the UK before Brexit.
"We have had some suggestion that that the European Commission might attempt to force us to protect everyone who arrives up to the moment of departure," a Government source said. "We could end up with half of Romania and Bulgaria coming here if we wait that long."

Lunar Suite posted:

So what happens if I visit my family back in Germany during the summer? Since I've been in the UK before the cutoff, am I permanently grandfathered, or can I never leave again.

mfcrocker posted:

I'm pretty sure that won't hold up in court, Theresa.

Lord of the Llamas posted:

Nothing. At least he's being honest. It's also the exact position leftists are criticised for over centrism.

Lunar Suite posted:

So what happens if I visit my family back in Germany during the summer? Since I've been in the UK before the cutoff, am I permanently grandfathered, or can I never leave again.

mfcrocker posted:

I'm pretty sure that won't hold up in court, Theresa.

mfcrocker posted:

LemonDrizzle posted:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/26/theresa-may-poised-announce-end-free-movement-new-eu-migrants/

Seal the gates! The Bulgamanians are coming!!!!

quote:

Theresa May is preparing for the Scottish government to call a second independence referendum to coincide with the triggering of Article 50 next month.
Senior government sources say there is serious concern that Nicola Sturgeon will use the start of the Brexit process to demand another vote on the future of the UK and that Whitehall is planning for that event.
The prime minister could reject the demand, but such a move would risk causing a constitutional crisis. If she agreed, ministers have been warned, she would risk the break-up of the United Kingdom on a “coin toss”.
...
Sources have told The Times that Mrs May could agree a fresh vote but make holding it after Brexit a red line, knowing that it would leave an independent Scotland outside the EU initially. SNP insiders have suggested that they would wish a vote to take place in the autumn of 2018.
With the prospect of Northern Ireland coming under direct rule, the SNP demands threaten to undermine Mrs May as she seeks to present a united front to the EU.
A senior government source said that the danger of a “devolution crisis” was preoccupying Whitehall. “It is possible that we will have to face Nicola Sturgeon calling a second referendum, have to bring in direct rule in Northern Ireland and trigger Article 50 all at the same time,” the source said.

Breath Ray posted:

I suppose the difference is centre left is proven to be electable and even 2010 and 2015 were pretty close iirc. So confirmation bias as ppl have said and we'll have to give jeremy a fair crack at the whip in 2020 unless he steps down and finds someone more suitable before then.

LemonDrizzle posted:

"We could end up with half of Romania and Bulgaria coming here if we wait that long."

Seal the gates! The Bulgamanians are coming!!!!

Lord of the Llamas posted:

Why should the left continue to associate itself with a group of people that employ destructive and abusive tactics to maintain control?

Pissflaps posted:

I don't understand this.

mfcrocker posted:

A Tory government is a big bunch of poo poo, but I have no interest in having Tory-lite either. That got us nowhere.

Jose posted:

based on what they were promising it got us a tory majority

jBrereton posted:

gently caress tess.

Tesseraction posted:

I love your desperate attempt to make everything to do with the Brexit process about my particular vote.

I don't pretend I didn't vote for Leave, so you can stop pretending like I try and distance myself from it.

mfcrocker posted:

The idea that electability is worth compromising your values for isn't widely held and, in your case, is unevenly applied as a stick to try and whack a leftist Labour party.

The centrists in the party lost both the 2010 and 2015 elections; that doesn't mean they should've suddenly become UKIP to try and win support. Likewise, the Corbynite Labour party shouldn't become centrists despite being obliterated in the polls right now.

A Tory government is a big bunch of poo poo, but I have no interest in having Tory-lite either. That got us nowhere.

mfcrocker posted:

The centrists in the party lost both the 2010 and 2015 elections; that doesn't mean they should've suddenly become UKIP to try and win support. Likewise, the Corbynite Labour party shouldn't become centrists despite being obliterated in the polls right now.

Pissflaps posted:

I don't think anybody expects 'Corbynite labour' to become centrists, just to recognise that they're an existential threat to the Labour Party as a parliamentary force.

mfcrocker posted:

You did properly poo poo the bed with this one though

mfcrocker posted:

Bollocks, the major existential threat is the massive swing to the right of pretty much all political discourse in the Western world. A centrist candidate would be absolutely hosed.

Tesseraction posted:

I still firmly believe Britain is ultimately better off outside the European Union.

Pissflaps posted:

Why would a party closer to the right be more hosed than one further removed from it?

Pissflaps posted:

I don't think anybody expects 'Corbynite labour' to become centrists, just to recognise that they're an existential threat to the Labour Party as a parliamentary force.

mfcrocker posted:

Sure, we're just saying that this is ignoring a wealth of evidence to the contrary.

Regarde Aduck posted:

Then why should anyone on the same position on the political spectrum as Corbyn bother? In fact why should anyone left of centre bother with British politics at all? You seem to think a working party exists to do either of two things: 1) Become centrist 2) Just do whatever's popular right now gently caress everything??

quote:

Here's a question. If Corbyn went hard right, said throw all the immigrants out, cut taxes, cut welfare, said England was the best country ever and everyone else are big bellends and not good, just basically became a giant not-quite-fascist populist and then won the 2020 GE. Would you say this was an effective Corbyn? Would you like to see the Labour party do this in order to win?

mfcrocker posted:

Centrist Labour would be hosed, Corbynite Labour is hosed. Neither is going to win an election in 2020.