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Pissflaps posted:I don't think it's cool of you to boast about how much you're earning thanks to being in this country, then laugh at our misfortune for having made an economically harmful democratic decision. And nothing is as awful, in the eyes of the middle class, as rudeness! e; heck, a snipe. The Zone of the Enders series begins, chronoligically, with Zone of the Enders: 2167 Idolo. Ms Adequate fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Feb 27, 2017 |
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Feb 27, 2017 23:28
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Mister Adequate posted:And nothing is as awful, in the eyes of the middle class, as rudeness! I'm working class.
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Feb 27, 2017 23:28
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Mister Adequate posted:I thought you were the anime capital? How'd you claim my video game capital title off me? Haha you've clearly never heard of anime video games my brother, my dude. OwlFancier posted:I feel like there is a meaningful distinction between me and someone with the ability to achieve the end result of fifteen years of my life, in one of theirs. That's what the capitalist classes want you to think. It's an argument built to ferment class division among workers instead of having people question why a small handful can "earn" more in a year than we'll get in a lifetime without any labour whatsoever
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Feb 27, 2017 23:28
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Pissflaps posted:I'm working class. do you own a house yet because I have some horrible news for you if so, mon petit
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Feb 27, 2017 23:30
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Namtab posted:That's what the capitalist classes want you to think. It's an argument built to ferment class division among workers instead of having people question why a small handful can "earn" more in a year than we'll get in a lifetime without any labour whatsoever I know why the difference exists, that doesn't make it less significant.
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Feb 27, 2017 23:30
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I've never watched naruto but drat it's some good video games
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Feb 27, 2017 23:31
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Pissflaps posted:I don't think it's cool of you to boast about how much you're earning thanks to being in this country, then laugh at our misfortune for having made an economically harmful democratic decision. Eh, honestly I'm just extremely pissed off at it all. I don't derive any joy from this situation. I'm glad I sparked yet another debate about what middle class is, though. I'm just gonna go ahead and say Bakunin was right.
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Feb 27, 2017 23:31
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Spangly A posted:do you own a house yet because I have some horrible news for you if so, mon petit I thought that owning a house only makes you one of the parasite classes when you start renting it out.
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Feb 27, 2017 23:31
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Namtab posted:Haha you've clearly never heard of anime video games my brother, my dude. Actually DBZ:XV is very good and cool.
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Feb 27, 2017 23:32
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important question here lads: does average household income mean total for the whole household or income per person?Pissflaps posted:Sounds like he's seized all the means of preventing reproduction. another classic pissflaps zinger. thank you
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Feb 27, 2017 23:33
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Spangly A posted:"the middle class" is bullshit Socially, the middle class is who-the-gently caress-knows now. There's a segment of society that tries to pitch it as 'isn't a Sun reading racist, has interests in philosophy and being educated instead of kebabs and Jeremy Kyle' but that's bullshit, there have always been solidly working class people like that, and solidly middle class people who are Nigel Farage. Namtab posted:Ah, my house
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Feb 27, 2017 23:33
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OwlFancier posted:I know why the difference exists, that doesn't make it less significant. It's significant and he has more options than most, but trying to claim he isn't working class is harmful
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Feb 27, 2017 23:33
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cargohills posted:important question here lads: does average household income mean total for the whole household or income per person? I feel that the answer is within your question.
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Feb 27, 2017 23:33
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Namtab posted:I thought that owning a house only makes you one of the parasite classes when you start renting it out. ehh, if we're going to make class distinctions beyond worker/capitalist, which I agree has been an obvious reality for several decades, then having a relatively large financial asset which can in emergency be liquidated is definitely one of those distinctions into a middle/lil'bourgie class. Mister Adequate posted:Actually DBZ:XV is very good and cool. Bandai really do make good games Pochoclo posted:I'm glad I sparked yet another debate about what middle class is, though. I'm just gonna go ahead and say Bakunin was right. the british have the class consciousness of a gnat and are really, really touchy about it
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Feb 27, 2017 23:34
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cargohills posted:important question here lads: does average household income mean total for the whole household or income per person? One would assume that it means per the average person-content of a household.
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Feb 27, 2017 23:34
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Namtab posted:It's significant and he has more options than most, but trying to claim he isn't working class is harmful I think at the point that you can earn enough in a year for you to comfortably live on for five, you might not functionally be quite as working class as someone who lives paycheck to paycheck. You do have manifestly different class desires at that point, and a number of them align more with capital than with workers. Like if I could work for ten years and earn enough to become a landlord then manifestly my class interests are not the same as someone who will never earn that much.
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Feb 27, 2017 23:36
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Spangly A posted:ehh, if we're going to make class distinctions beyond worker/capitalist, which I agree has been an obvious reality for several decades, then having a relatively large financial asset which can in emergency be liquidated is definitely one of those distinctions into a middle/lil'bourgie class. What will win out, my identification as working class or my desire to stop giving out half my wage every month...
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Feb 27, 2017 23:37
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Pochoclo posted:Actually it's kinda sad but videogame dev jobs pay really low salaries. That's what you do right, you're saying that the salary that means you pay 50k tax is a really low salary? I agree that EU people should just be allowed to stay. Also non-EU people because its wrong to discriminate in favour of people just because they happen to come from Sadly it seems like an inevitable result of losing freedom of movement because it means that having an EU passport will no longer give you an automatic right to stay here in future. So if we're going to let *existing* EU migrants have some sort of permanent resident status then we have to give them some special documentation to prove they have it. Plain old EU passports won't be enough. And they're going to have to ask for it, because its not as if there's a big central list of where they all live. A better answer would be to keep freedom of movement I think. Don't think its going to affect someone from south America though (unless you're here on an EU passport for some reason).
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Feb 27, 2017 23:38
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OwlFancier posted:I think at the point that you can earn enough in a year for you to comfortably live on for five, you might not functionally be quite as working class as someone who lives paycheck to paycheck. I still dont begrudge a worker his wages. All workers should be paid an amount where they can live comfortably.
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Feb 27, 2017 23:39
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Namtab posted:I still dont begrudge a worker his wages. All workers should be paid an amount where they can live comfortably. Yes I agree, but that doesn't invalidate the point that earning enough money to catapult you with ease into landlording status does, by any reasonable class analysis, kind of put you not-quite-in the working class any more. You may still individually support socialism but booj people are allowed to do that. What you believe does not impact what you are.
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Feb 27, 2017 23:41
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Pissflaps posted:I feel that the answer is within your question. im really confused because this wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_British_Class_Survey) gives the average household income of the "technical middle class" (giving examples of "senior professionals in education establishments, and business, research, and administrative positions") as £38,000 which divided by 2 (assuming that the average household size is that) is £19,000 and i'd assume senior lecturers have much better salaries than that
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Feb 27, 2017 23:41
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The example that always springs to my mind when this topic comes up is the fact that people try and use the fact that tube drivers get more money than me, a nurse, to try and get me and my peers to agitate against their strikes for better pay and conditions.
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Feb 27, 2017 23:41
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OwlFancier posted:Yes I agree, but that doesn't invalidate the point that earning enough money to catapult you with ease into landlording status does, by any reasonable class analysis, kind of put you not-quite-in the working class any more. If he becomes one of the landlord class then I promise you I will hold him in abject contempt as is good and proper.
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Feb 27, 2017 23:43
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Pochoclo posted:High income != wealthy. Capital accumulation takes time. I don't create jobs though, compared to the actual capital class I'm just another poor. A brief reminder that 'job creation' means using wealth to monopolise the space where jobs can exist and handing them out as piecemeal as possible. Rupert Murdoch has generated a ton of capital, but there sure as poo poo aren't as many journalists anymore.
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Feb 27, 2017 23:43
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Namtab posted:The example that always springs to my mind when this topic comes up is the fact that people try and use the fact that tube drivers get more money than me, a nurse, to try and get me and my peers to agitate against their strikes for better pay and conditions. sure but is a manager or something on six figures who happens to rent instead of buy just another worker?
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Feb 27, 2017 23:43
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cargohills posted:im really confused because this wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_British_Class_Survey) gives the average household income of the "technical middle class" (giving examples of "senior professionals in education establishments, and business, research, and administrative positions") as £38,000 which divided by 2 (assuming that the average household size is that) is £19,000 and i'd assume senior lecturers have much better salaries than that If my experience at uni is to be believed then senior lecturers are invariably either divorced or in the process of getting divorced.
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Feb 27, 2017 23:43
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Paxman posted:That's what you do right, you're saying that the salary that means you pay 50k tax is a really low salary? I'm not a game dev. Also I agree, trying to stop immigration has never worked much in the history of the world, and I do have a EU passport. Dual nationality, that's how most Latin-americans get into Europe. The answer to stop immigration is to make all the world a nice place to live and work in, and by that point I imagine most people would stop caring anyway.
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Feb 27, 2017 23:43
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OwlFancier posted:If my experience at uni is to be believed then senior lecturers are invariably either divorced or in the process of getting divorced. I assume "average household income" doesnt take into account the number of senior lecturers who are divorced compared to airplane pilots
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Feb 27, 2017 23:44
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cargohills posted:sure but is a manager or something on six figures who happens to rent instead of buy just another worker? I suspect on that salary he isn't labouring, so no.
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Feb 27, 2017 23:44
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OwlFancier posted:I think at the point that you can earn enough in a year for you to comfortably live on for five, you might not functionally be quite as working class as someone who lives paycheck to paycheck. earning enough in a year to live for five still means you die at the end and that means you are working class. That is what the entire working class should demand. Living paycheck to paycheck is obviously the historic evolution of living harvest to harvest, it doesn't mean it will ever be an acceptable condition for the proletariat to live in, it doesn't make it not harmful to your health, and when someone in the same ultimate position with a higher quality of life remains a class ally, we must remember that the perfectly natural resentment we feel about our own conditions is not their fault, but that of the capitalist. Besides which, the housing bubble and the normalcy of 25 year mortgages means that these people are still, ultimately, losing a portion of their paycheck that quickly becomes unaffordable when viewing the asset itself. This attack on the conditions of the so-called middle class is another aggression designed to divide with exactly the self-interest of "aspiration" you refer to. It is a threat. A far less immediate one, perhaps, but the mass of foreclosures and subprime mortgages over the last ten years show that any sense of stability beyond work is a lie we should challenge. Namtab posted:What will win out, my identification as working class or my desire to stop giving out half my wage every month... You'll still be a prole dw
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Feb 27, 2017 23:44
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Really if I drink wine not beer and have a la di da accent and listen to the Archers and read the Grauniad and go to work in a suit with a white shirt and tie and sit at a desk and earn what sounds like a lot of money to most people and call myself working class I'm either going to get laughed at or a smack in the mouth
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Feb 27, 2017 23:46
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The answer to the higher paid worker isn't "he should be paid less", it's that everyone else should be paid more.
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Feb 27, 2017 23:46
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cargohills posted:I assume "average household income" doesnt take into account the number of senior lecturers who are divorced compared to airplane pilots I mean if it's an average household income of lecturers it might trend disproportionately towards not being divisible because they're all lonely old fuckers.
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Feb 27, 2017 23:46
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Paxman posted:Really if I drink wine not beer and have a la di da accent and listen to the Archers and read the Grauniad and go to work in a suit with a white shirt and tie and sit at a desk and earn what sounds like a lot of money to most people and call myself working class I'm either going to get laughed at or a smack in the mouth Yeah but that's actually a problem.
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Feb 27, 2017 23:47
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Spangly A posted:earning enough in a year to live for five still means you die at the end and that means you are working class. That is what the entire working class should demand. Living paycheck to paycheck is obviously the historic evolution of living harvest to harvest, it doesn't mean it will ever be an acceptable condition for the proletariat to live in, it doesn't make it not harmful to your health, and when someone in the same ultimate position with a higher quality of life remains a class ally, we must remember that the perfectly natural resentment we feel about our own conditions is not their fault, but that of the capitalist. I think you can remain committed to improving conditions while still recognizing that proletarian-bourgeoisie is a spectrum rather than a binary.
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Feb 27, 2017 23:48
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namesake posted:Yeah but that's actually a problem. Yes, you are right.
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Feb 27, 2017 23:50
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What's false consciousness, I feel like this might be false consciousness
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Feb 27, 2017 23:51
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Pochoclo posted:I'm not a game dev. Also I agree, trying to stop immigration has never worked much in the history of the world, and I do have a EU passport. Dual nationality, that's how most Latin-americans get into Europe. You could make your home country a nice place to live
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Feb 27, 2017 23:52
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Namtab posted:What's false consciousness, I feel like this might be false consciousness It's like when you've sat on your hand for a few minutes and you can't feel or move it but instead of your hand it's your actual position in society. Both relate to wanking somehow.
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Feb 27, 2017 23:54
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Breath Ray posted:You could make your home country a nice place to live Yes, I try to make the UK a better place. Small stuff I won't get into, but every bit helps.
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Feb 27, 2017 23:55
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