|
Namtab posted:What's false consciousness, I feel like this might be false consciousness yeah p much from a distance all the internalised myth narratives in philosophy look the same so it's probably easier to just read Chomsky's one as it's the most modern and thus easiest to read, the proper distinctions are some serious philosophy nerd poo poo Breath Ray posted:You could make your home country a nice place to live us first
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 23:55
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 08:32 |
|
|
namesake posted:It's like when you've sat on your hand for a few minutes and you can't feel or move it but instead of your hand it's your actual position in society. Ah, the stranger
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 23:56
|
|
|
You shouldn't hate the middle class for making more than you, you should hate them for their soft-bellied liberal politics and their aspirational lifestyle bullshit imo.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2017 23:57
|
|
|
Pochoclo posted:Yes, I try to make the UK a better place. Small stuff I won't get into, but every bit helps. You could make it better by leaving and taking your entitled attitude with you. Then you could give something back to your poorer home country where your contribution and example could go much further than it would here. Promise me youll sleep on it at least.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:02
|
|
|
Sorry if this has already been posted, I don't really have time to keep up with the thread all the time at the mo. Looks like Clive Lewis is either quite opportunistic or a victim of some of these 'dark arts' John McDonnell was talking about. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/27/clive-lewis-denies-registering-websites-for-labour-leadership-bid quote:Clive Lewis, who resigned from the shadow cabinet after voting against the Brexit bill, has denied secretly registering internet addresses linked to a potential leadership bid and warned that unnamed Labour figures were taking an “unhealthy interest” in him.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:02
|
|
|
Breath Ray posted:You could make it better by leaving and taking your entitled attitude with you. Then you could give something back to your poorer home country where your contribution and example could go much further than it would here. Promise me youll sleep on it at least. This on the other hand sounds very close to "gently caress off we're full"
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:02
|
|
|
Namtab posted:The example that always springs to my mind when this topic comes up is the fact that people try and use the fact that tube drivers get more money than me, a nurse, to try and get me and my peers to agitate against their strikes for better pay and conditions. i hate it when people complain about strikes. like, they're supposed to be disruptive, if they weren't, what's the point i guess i never had a problem with them because when i first learnt what they were it was teachers strikes and that meant you got the day off school
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:03
|
|
|
Actually he told us to gently caress off.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:05
|
|
|
Breath Ray posted:You could make it better by leaving and taking your entitled attitude with you. Then you could give something back to your poorer home country where your contribution and example could go much further than it would here. Promise me youll sleep on it at least. Do explain how I'm "entitled", I'm all ears. Also my home country is the UK. I'm British, does that make you angry? If you mean the country I was born in, don't worry, my contributions to several charities and family members there sure go a long way, as you say. Breath Ray posted:Actually he told us to gently caress off. No you blithering imbecile, I told those trying to kick me off the country to gently caress off. Do you want me out? Then gently caress you. Otherwise, it wasn't aimed at you.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:05
|
|
|
Prince John posted:Sorry if this has already been posted, I don't really have time to keep up with the thread all the time at the mo. You are loving missing the best part of the original huffpo article: quote:When asked for a comment on the websites, Lewis told HuffPost UK: “A lesson from LBJ [US President Lyndon B Johnson] in how to smash an opponent.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:06
|
|
|
Paxman posted:Really if I drink wine not beer and have a la di da accent and listen to the Archers and read the Grauniad and go to work in a suit with a white shirt and tie and sit at a desk and earn what sounds like a lot of money to most people and call myself working class I'm either going to get laughed at or a smack in the mouth I think you only need the accent, actually.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:08
|
|
|
I'm sure this has come up before but seeing what people actually earn is always fun. Here's what people earn, according to the ONS Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings.  These are gross annual full time salaries, so they include bonuses, holiday pay etc. No, if you earn loadsamoney and find it embarrassing there's no trick you can use to get out of it. OK, you could point out that the proper rich live on returns from capital and not salaries. But if you're looking at salaries for whatever reason, here they are. Anyway: median annual wage is 28k. If you earn 40k you're in the top 25%. If you earn 56k you're in the top 10%. Some observations: People who earn more than most people sometimes hate having it pointed out. Some people really hate the whole concept of median, I don't know why. Only the top 35 per cent or so earn the average wage or more. People who work part or don't work just aren't in these figures at all https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentan...reviousReleases
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:09
|
|
|
Namtab posted:Ah, the stranger 
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:10
|
|
|
JFairfax posted:Oh yes it is: Of course he prays, he's religious. That's something that all religious people - the vast majority of the world population - do. In fact most religions mandate it. He doesn't say that he talks to God.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:18
|
|
|
Pochoclo posted:Do explain how I'm "entitled", I'm all ears. I dont know what you're so angry about but if you want to leave go ahead I'm sure we can find someone else with inch thick specs to take your place.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:18
|
|
|
Breath Ray posted:I dont know what you're so angry about but if you want to leave go ahead I'm sure we can find someone else with inch thick specs to take your place. Yeah sure okay bye keep the good troll game up, was fun while it lasted.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:21
|
|
|
The issue with earning lots of money and still being working class is that as the years pass only two things can happen: a) You save and/or invest your money wisely and accumulate a lot of capital. While you might not be able to live off the profits, you could still live off it without working for quite a while. That kind of distances you from the working class. b) You spend all of what you earn and live an extremely ostentatious and expensive lifestyle. This also distances you from the the majority of the working class, and makes people think you're kind of a dick. Either way you might still fit the original definition of working class, but you certainly aren't relatable to most working class people. Which is a shame, because either way you will have a lot more in common with them than with the capital classes.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:22
|
|
|
c) spend all your money into an ill-fated attempt to bring about a glorious revolution of the proletariat
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:24
|
|
|
I guess you could spend it all on good causes, but that happens so rarely I think it's safe to discount it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:28
|
|
|
d) spend it on charitable ends that end up being a sticking plaster over the failures of capitalism in the Zizekian model, but still are more moral in the short term than having that money and not doing so
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:29
|
|
|
Use that money to meet your material needs and keep your morale up by traveling the world and seeing and doing interesting poo poo, gain a better understanding of your fellow human beings, educate yourself, whatever. Money is power and should be used, not hoarded or surrendered. We shouldn't all be pious, ascetic monks sworn to poverty, the problem is the system not the individual.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:32
|
|
|
Just lol if the lesson you learned as a child growing up wasn't that the only way to be successful in a capitalist system was to accumulate so much wealth that you could build a vault full of coins that you would swan dive into every day.
|
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:35
|
|
|
TomViolence posted:Use that money to meet your material needs and keep your morale up by traveling the world and seeing and doing interesting poo poo, gain a better understanding of your fellow human beings, educate yourself, whatever. Money is power and should be used, not hoarded or surrendered. We shouldn't all be pious, ascetic monks sworn to poverty, the problem is the system not the individual. That seems like a kind of tenuous justification for "get rich and live like it"
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:36
|
|
|
Pochoclo posted:Yeah sure okay bye keep the good troll game up, was fun while it lasted. Nice meltdown
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:38
|
|
|
i think that as long as you render unto caesar and abide by the law, what you do with your hard earned is your business and nobody else's. or, to paraphrase a great sage of our times, "we [should be] intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich as long as they pay their taxes"
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:41
|
|
|
I think if you're getting filthy rich we aren't taxing you enough.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:42
|
|
|
Do you work for your wage, or do you own the means of production and use that to steal one from workers like a loving parasite? Because that's all that really matters, "class" got turned to useless tribal bullshit- utterly divorced from economic conditions to the point where it's a useless descriptor that means something new to everyone.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:44
|
|
|
LemonDrizzle posted:i think that as long as you render unto caesar and abide by the law, what you do with your hard earned is your business and nobody else's. or, to paraphrase a great sage of our times, "we [should be] intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich as long as they pay their taxes" Does Blair pay his taxes, I don't think he pays his taxes
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:44
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:That seems like a kind of tenuous justification for "get rich and live like it" Everyone should be rich, or at the very least comfortable and at liberty to enjoy their life. The problem is not that some people are, it's that not everybody is. There's nothing particularly liberating or redistributive about telling people to give up money they've worked for whenthe real enemy is the parasitic capitalist class. OwlFancier posted:I think if you're getting filthy rich we aren't taxing you enough. And there you have it, the cause is systemic and not individual.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:44
|
|
|
I think that if your money could liberate five other people from grinding poverty you should probably do that rather than spend it on rare SNES carts.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:45
|
|
|
Imagine the petit bourgeois as one of those little fish that latch onto the mighty shark of the proletariat, and the bourgeois as vampires
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:46
|
|
|
hakimashou posted:Nice meltdown I got baited hard but in my defence I was angry at the news. All the news lately are depressing as gently caress.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:46
|
|
|
Or at least you should not try to justify the reason why you aren't doing that.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:46
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:I think that if your money could liberate five other people from grinding poverty you should probably do that rather than spend it on rare SNES carts. hosed up if true
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:47
|
|
|
Pochoclo posted:I got baited hard but in my defence I was angry at the news. All the news lately are depressing as gently caress. Same, buddy. Same. 
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:48
|
|
|
Owl my boy I think that workers who earn more should be allowed to enjoy some of it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:48
|
|
|
Any revolution where we have to be austere and miserable monks living on gruel and hard tack is not a revolution I want to be part of. Chiefly because it wouldn't be much of a change, but also I mean what are you doing posting on internet forums when the money you spend on wifi could go to your nearest food bank, eh?
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:50
|
|
|
Namtab posted:Owl my boy I think that workers who earn more should be allowed to enjoy some of it. I mean, I agree, but the reason I agree is because I am selfish and want to have some of my life one day maybe that isn't oriented around work and not spending money because I have things I need to keep it for. There's no ethical justification for it, I would just actually go completely mad if I didn't switch off my empathy at least some of the time. I don't hold with trying to construct some silly framework to justify your own greed though, just admit it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:50
|
|
|
If it's any consolation I definitely also feel jealous. That's how capitalism keeps us squabbling.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 08:32 |
|
|
I think if we're going to talk false consciousness then maybe "actually my greed is *~justified~* because of <bollocks>" is probably a pretty nasty example of it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2017 00:54
|
|