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Flowers For Algeria posted:Hey Ligur, Blut, Unpacked Robinhood, Doctor Malaver, I don't want to backseat mod, but there's literally only one rule in the OP of this thread, and that rule is "no fascism allowed!!!" How about you quote my post that you find the most fascist (among all my other fascist posts). I'll ask the famously left-leaning D&D mods whether this is indeed fascism and if it is I'll take a ban. If it isn't then you take one, OK?
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Feb 27, 2017 21:19
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How come there hasn't been a scandal about Macron yet? No way someone that creepy isn't corrupt in some way?
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Feb 27, 2017 21:30
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Doctor Malaver posted:How about you quote my post that you find the most fascist (among all my other fascist posts). I'll ask the famously left-leaning D&D mods whether this is indeed fascism and if it is I'll take a ban. If it isn't then you take one, OK? Defensiveness when confronted to an accusation of fascism is a pretty good indicator of closeted fascism dude.
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Feb 27, 2017 22:02
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Lord of the Llamas posted:How come there hasn't been a scandal about Macron yet? No way someone that creepy isn't corrupt in some way? he's corrupted with neoliberalism
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Feb 27, 2017 22:08
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Defensiveness when confronted to an accusation of fascism is a pretty good indicator of closeted fascism dude. Now that's desperate
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Feb 27, 2017 22:10
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Lord of the Llamas posted:How come there hasn't been a scandal about Macron yet? No way someone that creepy isn't corrupt in some way?
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Feb 27, 2017 22:10
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Hey Ligur, Blut, Unpacked Robinhood, Doctor Malaver, I don't want to backseat mod, but there's literally only one rule in the OP of this thread, and that rule is "no fascism allowed!!!" What "fascist" things I have said in this thread again?
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Feb 27, 2017 22:11
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Ligur posted:What "fascist" things I have said in this thread again? Please, Ligur, when I click the question mark under your avatar, the first post that comes up is a post where you handwave away the thousands of dead migrants in the Mediterranean. unpacked robinhood posted:Now that's desperate There's also the fact that he wants an antifascist to get banned for denouncing fascism. Textbook fascism, that.
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Feb 27, 2017 22:17
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Ligur posted:What "fascist" things I have said in this thread again? "if refugees didn't want to be violently attacked by right wingers maybe they shouldn't have been allowed to flee their bloody civil wars at home in the first place"
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Feb 27, 2017 22:18
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Defensiveness when confronted to an accusation of fascism is a pretty good indicator of closeted fascism dude. Well you are misogynist and transphobic yourself, so I wouldn't cry that much when someone has a different political stance than you, personally. Flowers For Algeria posted:Please, Ligur, when I click the question mark under your avatar, the first post that comes up is a post where you handwave away the thousands of dead migrants in the Mediterranean. You probably misread the post somehow, or (unintentionally) misunderstand what I'm saying. Crossing the Mediterranean is not certain death by any means, but dangerous, we should not encourage people to try or support human smugglers in their endeavor to gather money by sending horribly overloaded rubber dinghies off the Libyan coast. Fiction posted:"if refugees didn't want to be violently attacked by right wingers maybe they shouldn't have been allowed to flee their bloody civil wars at home in the first place" I have not said anything like that though. IMO the money spent on UNHCR refugee programs should be doubled post haste for example. This all has nothing to do with not allowing people to leave Syria.
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Feb 27, 2017 22:23
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Ligur posted:Well you are misogynist and transphobic yourself, so I wouldn't cry that much when someone has a different political stance than you, personally. lol
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Feb 27, 2017 22:26
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I wrote a thing about a portuguese journalist getting red mad and nude: https://storify.com/KoldPT/red-mad-nude-online
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Feb 27, 2017 22:39
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unpacked robinhood posted:What's everyones opinion on the 2246 violent crimes carried by the left in 2015, mainly against the German police ? That the same report also states that despite the higher number of felonies on the left, there's actually more people that were hurt by right-wing violence than left-wing violence. But then again, you aren't even bothering to make an argument.
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Feb 27, 2017 22:44
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Defensiveness when confronted to an accusation of fascism is a pretty good indicator of closeted fascism dude. Wow, strong retort. You accuse someone of fascism with the logic that if they admit, they are fascist and if they deny they are closeted fascist. You'd be a good judge in witch trials or Stalin's purges. When asked to substantiate your accusation, you have nothing. When challenged to raise the stakes, you flee... and your excuse is that you'd be banned for denouncing fascism? A D&D mod would ban an anti-fascist instead of a fascist?! With that kind of moderation, why do you even post here? Mods must be fascist too. You try to censor different views. See, I don't like Tesseraction very much but I asked him to stop godwinning, not to leave the thread. Not only because it would be stupid and backseat modding to order which users can post and which can't, I don't even want him to leave the thread. I'm here to engage with other posters' opinions, while you want only one side to speak. And I'm the fascist? If GC's (BTW how come he's not on your list? Did you plan several rounds of purges?) comments about sinking refugee boats were the Right's low in this thread, then you FFA are the Left's bottom. I don't think such combination of poor arguments, cowardice and forum rules breaking can be eclipsed. If you do any political work IRL I'm sure you're worthless or doing more harm then good.
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Feb 27, 2017 23:01
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Flowers For Algeria (and the recent other thread 'fascism' obsessives) here are a perfect example of what is wrong with the modern European hard left. By dogmatically sticking to their"anti fascist" guns, and undermining the centre left at every opportunity, they will in-fact assure an actual Thatcherite right-winger (or worse) is elected in France. And likewise elsewhere. They'll focus all of their opprobrium on Hamon and his centre left support as being 'collaborators' or 'fascist enablers'. And refuse to engage in any constructive debate or compromise with anyone on the left. And as a result the country will end up with Fillon or Le Pen in power. Good work chaps, cutting off your nose to spite your face in action.
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Feb 28, 2017 00:04
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I mean, if you think about it carefully, it's actually the people who speak up against fascism that are at fault, because they are just too mean and intolerant to poor fascists that just want to be nice and friends with everyone
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Feb 28, 2017 00:20
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Yeah, because the last five years of center-left government under have been such a loving success. You know what makes it extra scary that Le Pen or Fillon might be president? The very laws giving more power to the police and intelligence services that Hollande and Valls drafted. Not to mention sticking us in an endless state of emergency and then voting to extend it until after the election, to boot. You don't get to do this dumb poo poo and then go "b-b-but Le Pen!".
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Feb 28, 2017 00:22
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I just like typing fascism a lot, telling people they're fascists, that sort of thing
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Feb 28, 2017 00:24
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Blut posted:Flowers For Algeria (and the recent other thread 'fascism' obsessives) here are a perfect example of what is wrong with the modern European hard left. By dogmatically sticking to their"anti fascist" guns, and undermining the centre left at every opportunity, they will in-fact assure an actual Thatcherite right-winger (or worse) is elected in France. And likewise elsewhere. If the "centre left" actually displayed a modicum of integrity instead of retreating into establishment backscratching and selling out their working class base to the interests of neoliberals any time something vaguely contentious came up, you might have had a point. But instead, why don't you tell me how the compromises of the "centre left" have improved the standards of the working class voters they claim to represent? I'm also not certain who in here is focusing opprobrium on on Hamon or calling him a fascist enabler. But just to clear the air, I am calling you, forums poster Blut, a fascist enabler. Benoit Hamon is immaterial because Benoit Hamon isn't posting in this thread about how it's such a sad loving shame those poor fascists were made to suffer the consequences of their politics, and even if he was, I'd still vote for him before the Nazis at the Front National, because of the aforementioned dogmatic anti-fascism you seem to be taking such issue with.
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Feb 28, 2017 00:25
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Hey everyone, I have a hot new take on what is wrong with the 'European Left'. You can all read it in my manifesto very soon, but: (spoiler alert) it's all about wanting to kill their fathers and gently caress their mothers and too much blood accumulating in the body.
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Feb 28, 2017 00:33
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The problem of the left is that it doesn't exist anymore. Like, take Hamon. When he won the PS primaries, there were a bunch of PS apparatchiks that whined and moaned about how Hamon was a dangerous radical leftist so they'd gently caress off to MacRonald's instead. Take the British Labour Party, where the blairites are constantly trying to kick Corbyn out. It's the same thing: left-wing parties don't actually want or even like left-wing politics. And with the overton window shifting that went with the left-wing parties abandoning left-wing politics, the right went on to become the extreme right, and the extreme right went on to become the easy way out of corrupt neoliberalism.
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Feb 28, 2017 00:43
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Defensiveness when confronted to an accusation of fascism is a pretty good indicator of closeted fascism dude. Good lord you are pathetic.
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Feb 28, 2017 00:53
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Blut posted:Flowers For Algeria (and the recent other thread 'fascism' obsessives) here are a perfect example of what is wrong with the modern European hard left. By dogmatically sticking to their"anti fascist" guns, and undermining the centre left at every opportunity, they will in-fact assure an actual Thatcherite right-winger (or worse) is elected in France. And likewise elsewhere. This would totally be an argument if it wasn't for the fact we have a generation of failed centrism as evidence against that strategy. The centrists had their chance and now we're left with the mess. The fact that they have tantrums and throw their toys out the pram any time anyone even remotely left wing starts to take charge shows that the centre-left "big tent" is a lie. They've already pissed on the inside of that tent and poisoned the coalition. Broad coalitions only work when the factions are willing to play by the rules. Instead the centrists threaten self destruction "for our own good" if they don't get to run the show. Then comes the emotional blackmail against the left to get it to vote for the centrist platform as the lesser of two evils. As the old saying goes "fool me once..."
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Feb 28, 2017 00:54
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Lord of the Llamas posted:As the old saying goes "fool me once..." Can't get fooled again?
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Feb 28, 2017 01:09
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KoldPT posted:I wrote a thing about a portuguese journalist getting red mad and nude: The hell?Ricardo Costa is a boring company man what made him go off the rails? He's too high profile to be on the ges payroll.my moneys on lourenco Coelho and the gaggle of cocksuckers at jornal economico.
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Feb 28, 2017 03:19
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Truga posted:I mean, if you think about it carefully, it's actually the people who speak up against fascism that are at fault, because they are just too mean and intolerant to poor fascists that just want to be nice and friends with everyone This-is-what-centrists-actually-believe.txt. again,fascism is nothing more than a nuisance to these people ,and to some,an opportunity!
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Feb 28, 2017 03:27
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I don't think anyone is saying "you shoud to be nice to fascists?!?", I think people are saying you shouldn't spray fascism accusations left and right and accuse everyone to the right of you of fascism, and then refuse to have any kind of intelligent thought exchange with them because you think they are "fascists" or try to somehow altogether block them out of your weird hyperbolic and hysterical antifa-bubble. edit: justifying violence is even worse and like I said before, is bad PR and won't be a selling point that resonates with most people. Ligur fucked around with this message at 07:55 on Feb 28, 2017 |
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Feb 28, 2017 07:51
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Doctor Malaver posted:Wow, strong retort. You are being very defensive. And your comparisons are not very good: there is a big difference between me and the likes of Vyshinsky, for example: in the context of a trial, I wouldn't call for your execution, and if you publically renounced your fascism, you would probably have to skip most of your stint in the reeducation facilities. (I'll readily admit that I forgot about GC, though. Thank you, I'll add him to The List.) Blut posted:Flowers For Algeria (and the recent other thread 'fascism' obsessives) here are a perfect example of what is wrong with the modern European hard left. By dogmatically sticking to their"anti fascist" guns, and undermining the centre left at every opportunity, they will in-fact assure an actual Thatcherite right-winger (or worse) is elected in France. And likewise elsewhere. You have a very poor understanding of the context of the upcoming French election.
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Feb 28, 2017 08:15
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seems to me the french right is actually infested with fascists, fascist admirers, and historical revisionists? fillon called the colonization of algeria a 'cultural exchange' for fucks sake
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Feb 28, 2017 08:31
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icantfindaname posted:seems to me the french right is actually infested with fascists, fascist admirers, and historical revisionists? fillon called the colonization of algeria a 'cultural exchange' for fucks sake He also condemned the "attack" on the FN buses. Called it something out of a "civil war" and "the Far West". There's increasingly little difference between the right and the FN (as you can tell from the number of people who would switch from Fillon to Le Pen in a Macron/Le Pen runoff). The denial about colonization and racism was always there, honestly. But the right did use to be more paternalistic and gaullist (read: okay with economic interventionism, to a point) instead of pure FYGM and racism, US Republican party style (the name change to "Les Républicains" just made it official). It basically happened under Sarkozy. Mind, you could make a case for including Valls and his wing of the socialists into "the French right". They're less FYGM, but their islamophobia has done a lot to legitimize the FN's ideas too. The socialist voters just have better voting discipline.
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Feb 28, 2017 08:54
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Those two arguments don't exclude each other.Hambilderberglar posted:There's a reason Labour parties have gone from a post-war political superpower to ineffectual sideshow over the last few decades, and it's not because they were insufficiently willing to compromise with neoliberals. It's because they're in large parts the architects of the current political reality they now claim to have been opposed to the whole time. This is correct. Europe does need a new, modern left. One that will be closer to working class than to bankers and corporations. Also a left that will have some XXI century ideas about jobs that are getting automated. Ligur posted:I don't think anyone is saying "you shoud to be nice to fascists?!?", I think people are saying you shouldn't spray fascism accusations left and right and accuse everyone to the right of you of fascism, and then refuse to have any kind of intelligent thought exchange with them because you think they are "fascists" or try to somehow altogether block them out of your weird hyperbolic and hysterical antifa-bubble. And this is also correct! You want to call fascists fascist, great. But if you go calling conservatives fascist, neoliberals fascist, centre left fascist (or fascist enablers / collaborators) then you're not building the new left. You're not building anything because there's no one left to build with you. You might end the day with self-righteous satisfaction because you "showed them all" but you are actually as useless the centre left you hate. It's just that you are not achieving anything for different reasons.
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Feb 28, 2017 09:14
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Leftism will come back in a big way after automation steals away 40% of jobs everywhere
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Feb 28, 2017 10:03
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Doctor Malaver posted:And this is also correct! You want to call fascists fascist, great. But if you go calling conservatives fascist, neoliberals fascist, centre left fascist (or fascist enablers / collaborators) then you're not building the new left. You're not building anything because there's no one left to build with you. You might end the day with self-righteous satisfaction because you "showed them all" but you are actually as useless the centre left you hate. It's just that you are not achieving anything for different reasons. The problem in France is that there are no conservatives left, or at least none that remotely correspond to what would be called centre-right in Europe. The FN and Reps / UMP have been racing right for a decade, and we're left with people whose views are, if not fascist in the strictest historical sense, at least reactionary enough that there's little place for negotiation. On the left, the last great coalition ended up with Mitterrand in power, a guy who had half a term of actual leftist policy-making over 14 years of power. Nobody's fooling themselves that a coalition government with the PS would implement leftist measures - or indeed any measures at all. The PS is a crab bucket of ultra-careerist people with few convictions and no ability to govern. Calling everyone a fascist might not be very productive, but telling us that the actual fascists wouldn't win if we were juuuust a little nicer to each other is incredibly wrong-headed.
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Feb 28, 2017 10:20
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ChainsawCharlie posted:The hell?Ricardo Costa is a boring company man what made him go off the rails? He's too high profile to be on the ges payroll.my moneys on lourenco Coelho and the gaggle of cocksuckers at jornal economico. He is a Sportinguista in a family of Benfiquistas, so of course he has issues. (He is also totally the least favourite child. To his parents and the country at large.) Electronico6 fucked around with this message at 10:28 on Feb 28, 2017 |
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Feb 28, 2017 10:26
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lost in postation posted:Calling everyone a fascist might not be very productive, but telling us that the actual fascists wouldn't win if we were juuuust a little nicer to each other is incredibly wrong-headed. It contributes less to problem solving to call lovely centre leftists closet fash (because fash are like super bad so it's super insulting) than to call lovely centre leftists careerist sellouts. Of course, if the glorious revolution is totally happening any day now there's no need to make an effort at problem solving 
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Feb 28, 2017 10:52
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Having a few more years of an incredibly unpopular and impotent centre-left in power, driving more and more people to the right for actual policies (hateful as they may be) isn't what I would call a solution.
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Feb 28, 2017 11:00
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Doctor Malaver posted:And this is also correct! You want to call fascists fascist, great. But if you go calling conservatives fascist, neoliberals fascist, centre left fascist (or fascist enablers / collaborators) then you're not building the new left. You're not building anything because there's no one left to build with you. You might end the day with self-righteous satisfaction because you "showed them all" but you are actually as useless the centre left you hate. It's just that you are not achieving anything for different reasons. I do not want to -nor do I believe it is possible to- build a new left with neoliberals and conservatives because their interests are diametrically opposed to mine, and the interests the "new left" (should?) have. So how exactly do you think we can start to address the systematic selling out of the working class by the moderate left and creating an environment that allows the center left to be "center left" instead of neoliberals with a splash of red? Because if there's no room for criticism without the political center hiding behind mommy's skirt because the mean leftists are calling them names, I'm not sure how we move forward. Because just shrugging my shoulders and forgetting how the likes of Labour hung the working classes out to dry isn't going to work for me.
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Feb 28, 2017 11:02
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Hambilderberglar posted:What use does the new left have for people who think anti-fascism is an inconvenient dogma to be discarded once they catch a whiff of power? You can't have a new, modern left closer to the working class with 21st century ideas on automation if every time you break bread with your "allies" you're still fighting over whether or not it's acceptable to stand up to people who want to kill minorities. Criticise the political center for being a bunch of sellouts primarily concerned with making rich fucks richer (a thing they care about) rather than for being secret fascists who want to institute paper bag tests (a thing they don't care about and flip flop from dogwhistling to denouncing depending on whichever makes it easier to direct popular outrage at targets other than rich fucks).
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Feb 28, 2017 11:08
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lost in postation posted:Having a few more years of an incredibly unpopular and impotent centre-left in power, driving more and more people to the right for actual policies (hateful as they may be) isn't what I would call a solution. Go fix the center left instead of whining about them and doing nothing of consequence while waiting for your ~true~ left party (5th international leninist/maoist) to jump from 0.5% to 50% of the vote.
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Feb 28, 2017 11:10
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blowfish posted:Criticise the political center for being a bunch of sellouts primarily concerned with making rich fucks richer (a thing they care about) rather than for being secret fascists who want to institute paper bag tests (a thing they don't care about and flip flop from dogwhistling to denouncing depending on whichever makes it easier to direct popular outrage at targets other than rich fucks). blowfish posted:Go fix the center left instead of whining about them and doing nothing of consequence while waiting for your ~true~ left party (5th international leninist/maoist) to jump from 0.5% to 50% of the vote. How do you propose to fix a party that will have nothing left to build with once the rot is cut out? What's left of the Labour parties of Europe once neoliberal shills, Blairites and career politicians with one eye on the revolving door have been given the boot? E: Also whats the point in fixing the center left if they've already gelded themselves into political obscurity? Why compromise vote for a party that's irrelevant? Hambilderberglar fucked around with this message at 11:24 on Feb 28, 2017 |
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Feb 28, 2017 11:22
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