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Brainiac Five posted:It is. It was taken in a war of aggression by the United States. Germany didn't get to keep any of its territory seized under the Nazis, why should we? Because the population of those areas wouldn't stand for it. But people in those states. Even the ones with ancestry from Mexico. Don't want to be part of Mexico. Here's an idea, why don't you use some of that money you spend on buying yourself out of bans to go on a trip around the southwest and ask them if they want to be part of Mexico. I am sure it would be very enlightening.
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Feb 28, 2017 16:48
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Brainiac Five posted:It is. It was taken in a war of aggression by the United States. Germany didn't get to keep any of its territory seized under the Nazis, why should we? How do you feel about Israel?
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Feb 28, 2017 16:49
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Crowsbeak posted:Because the population of those areas wouldn't stand for it. But people in those states. Even the ones with ancestry from Mexico. Don't want to be part of Mexico. Here's an idea, why don't you use some of that money you spend on buying yourself out of bans to go on a trip around the southwest and ask them if they want to be part of Mexico. I am sure it would be very enlightening. So as long as we ethnically cleanse or genocide the people in the land we've seized, we can keep it? Hahaha what? TheRat posted:How do you feel about Israel? I fully support a Palestinian Right of Return and reparations for the Nakba, alongside Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank and a return of the Golan Heights to the people of Syria.
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Feb 28, 2017 16:51
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Brainiac Five posted:So as long as we ethnically cleanse or genocide the people in the land we've seized, we can keep it? Hahaha what?
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Feb 28, 2017 16:55
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Crowsbeak posted:So please explain what will you do to the 99% of the population in those states that want to stay in America. Should the Germans settled in Poland by the Nazis have been allowed to vote on whether to remain part of Germany after WW2?
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Feb 28, 2017 16:59
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Brainiac Five posted:Should the Germans settled in Poland by the Nazis have been allowed to vote on whether to remain part of Germany after WW2? Explain what you would do to the 99% of the population of the Southwest and California.
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Feb 28, 2017 17:02
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Condiv posted:just You vote for leftist by instilling them at the state and local levels and primary for leftist candidates. Crowsbeak posted:Hey Stone Cold was suggesting that the land we hold there is illegally held. That Land has been held by Americans for 170 years. Also nearly everyone who lives there (99%) want to stay part of America. Look anyone who suffered from that horrible operation deserves compensation no doubt. But ultimately the land is illegally held. Sure everyone who stays there wants to stay American because that is what they grew up as, but at the very least, our country can start treating them as full-fledged Americans. You are really getting caught up in her comment about Aztlán, which hasn't really been a thing since the Chicano Movement, which was a very different historical context, and one that is very unique in terms of social movements among Mexican-Americans. blackguy32 fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Feb 28, 2017 |
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Feb 28, 2017 17:03
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at people saying the party will be easiest to change from the inside. that only works if they follow their own rules and don't just make poo poo up all the time. the dems have shown yet again (under supposedly progressive leadership even!) that they will ignore their own bylaws and charter when necessary to keep the left out of power.
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Is anyone else asserting a legal claim to the land? If not, how can the land be held illegally?
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Feb 28, 2017 17:05
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blackguy32 posted:You vote for leftist by instilling them at the state and local levels and primary for leftist candidates. Lets be honest. ALL LAND in America is held Illegally. I would say those that say that those who live there now are exactly like Nazis would if they had their way lead to the depopualting of north America as nearly all of it including Mexico is illegally held land. @ Effectronica you got an explanation for what you want to do to all the people who do not want to be part of Mexico being that they have lived in the lands since the early 1900s? Or are you going to put out a word salad attacking me? Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Feb 28, 2017 |
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Feb 28, 2017 17:07
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blackguy32 posted:You vote for leftist by instilling them at the state and local levels and primary for leftist candidates. Well that and only vote for leftists. Centrists will just use any power you give them to stab leftists in the back. Centrists are wholly untrustworthy and not our allies at all.
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Feb 28, 2017 17:10
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Crowsbeak posted:Explain what you would do to the 99% of the population of the Southwest and California. Answer the question.
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Feb 28, 2017 17:14
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Brainiac Five posted:Answer the question. I would never suggest that people who had nothing to do with a conflict 150 years before where everyone who ever fought in such a conflict as well as their children are dead be forced to leave an area. The Nazis in Poland had just arrived. Now answer my question. Or are you now going to just post a word salad insult?
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Feb 28, 2017 17:16
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Condiv posted:Well that and only vote for leftists. Centrists will just use any power you give them to stab leftists in the back. Centrists are wholly untrustworthy and not our allies at all. Only voting for leftists will get you nowhere and fast. If the leftist candidate doesn't make it to the general, then the best thing to do is to agitate for more leftist policy. Not simple throw your hands up and decide you're going to stay at home instead since that sends the entirely wrong message. The DNC are looking for people that are going to be dedicated. Also, I think centrists are perfectly capable of being allies. In many cases, you can learn quite a bit about navigating the political system from them. Sometimes, centrists may even support the same candidate that you are. Brainiac Five posted:Answer the question. Crowsbeak posted:I would never suggest that people who had nothing to do with a conflict 150 years before where everyone who ever fought in such a conflict as well as their children are dead be forced to leave an area. The Nazis in Poland had just arrived. Now answer my question. Or are you now going to just post a word salad insult? This slapfight is pointless, because it is just dumb bickering about a sociopolitical movement that is being taken wildly out of context.
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Feb 28, 2017 17:17
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blackguy32 posted:Only voting for leftists will get you nowhere and fast. If the leftist candidate doesn't make it to the general, then the best thing to do is to agitate for more leftist policy. Not simple throw your hands up and decide you're going to stay at home instead since that sends the entirely wrong message. The DNC are looking for people that are going to be dedicated. I don't think he's so much interested in promoting leftism as promoting that leftists not get out and vote against Republicans.
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Feb 28, 2017 17:21
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Nevvy Z posted:I don't think he's so much interested in promoting leftism as promoting that leftists not get out and vote against Republicans. How many branches of government does your party control, again?
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Feb 28, 2017 17:25
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Nevvy Z posted:I don't think he's so much interested in promoting leftism as promoting that leftists not get out and vote against Republicans. But that is a borderline accelerationist message. It would be far easier to push a centrist to change than someone who is right of center. You can even do this while reorganizing candidates to run on the left.
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Feb 28, 2017 17:25
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blackguy32 posted:Only voting for leftists will get you nowhere and fast. If the leftist candidate doesn't make it to the general, then the best thing to do is to agitate for more leftist policy. Not simple throw your hands up and decide you're going to stay at home instead since that sends the entirely wrong message. The DNC are looking for people that are going to be dedicated. They won't listen when we agitate, and they break the rules when they get in the way of centrists holding power. Voting for centrists only gives them more power to ignore us and break the rules so it's a losing choice for us. quote:Also, I think centrists are perfectly capable of being allies. In many cases, you can learn quite a bit about navigating the political system from them. Sometimes, centrists may even support the same candidate that The latest votes are just proof they can't. They explicitly voted to keep the left from having any power and then made the vote anonymous so we can't hold them to account. These are not the actions of allies, this is the centrists making it clear they view us as enemies.
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Feb 28, 2017 17:32
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So has anyone brought up the recent NBC/WSJ poll in which Trump and the (R) is viewed more favorably than Pelosi and the (D)? Cuz that would be a better discussion than a bunch of gringos arguing about Aztlan.
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Feb 28, 2017 17:34
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blackguy32 posted:But that is a borderline accelerationist message. It would be far easier to push a centrist to change than someone who is right of center. You can even do this while reorganizing candidates to run on the left. Centrists have made it clear they will not change. They flubbed an easy election and insist on retaining full control of the party. edit: hell, one of the things Perez promised to change was make the DNC more transparent so there won't be claims of ratfucking next divisive primary. And yet he allows a secret vote on the DNC chair in violation of dnc rules. Condiv fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Feb 28, 2017 |
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Feb 28, 2017 17:34
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Crowsbeak posted:I would never suggest that people who had nothing to do with a conflict 150 years before where everyone who ever fought in such a conflict as well as their children are dead be forced to leave an area. The Nazis in Poland had just arrived. Now answer my question. Or are you now going to just post a word salad insult? This amounts to nothing but insisting that nothing negative has happened to Mexican-Americans from being forcibly incorporated into the USA, and therefore that there is no redress necessary. You're even using the same wording used to argue against reparations for racism against black people. The point of recognizing that the land is stolen and further crimes have been committed against its residents to this day is to acknowledge the need for redress.
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Feb 28, 2017 17:36
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Brainiac Five posted:This amounts to nothing but insisting that nothing negative has happened to Mexican-Americans from being forcibly incorporated into the USA, and therefore that there is no redress necessary. You're even using the same wording used to argue against reparations for racism against black people. The point of recognizing that the land is stolen and further crimes have been committed against its residents to this day is to acknowledge the need for redress. I already did. I said those who are victims of Operation Wetback should be repatriated along with their children and compensated. Along with those forced out in the 20s. Beyond that though. I don't want anything to be done. Because frankly the actual owners of the land were almost entirely the Natives. THe Mexicans as their own history of actions against their native populations show are just as much a colonial power as America.
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Feb 28, 2017 17:42
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The Ender posted:How many branches of government does your party control, again? How many trees are in your back yard? your question doesn't have anything to do with the post you are quoting either
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Feb 28, 2017 17:46
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Postorder Trollet89 posted:Yeah but their status as residents is either legal or illegal. The right wing shortened it to remove 'immigrant' as a means of de-humanizing those people. Accepting and using the term just further reinforces the notion that those people are less than human. 
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Feb 28, 2017 17:48
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Frijolero posted:So has anyone brought up the recent NBC/WSJ poll in which Trump and the (R) is viewed more favorably than Pelosi and the (D)? That wasn't really what the poll said so... Basically the finding was that Dems in congress had a single percentage point favor-ability difference from Republicans in congress, but Republicans had a higher unfavorable number (so like 31-58 to 32-60); Pelosi's personal favor-abilities have always been underwater but again, those numbers are mostly useless anyway, and Trump's numbers were still historically low. Dems still lead most Generic Congressional polls, which are also mostly useless.
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Feb 28, 2017 17:50
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Crowsbeak posted:I already did. I said those who are victims of Operation Wetback should be repatriated along with their children and compensated. Along with those forced out in the 20s. Beyond that though. I don't want anything to be done. Because frankly the actual owners of the land were almost entirely the Natives. THe Mexicans as their own history of actions against their native populations show are just as much a colonial power as America. Every scrap of wealth, every cultural artifact, everything involving anyone, anything, anywhere in the land ceded after the Mexican-American War is dependent for its existence on that event. Like slavery and like the genocides and ethnic cleansings committed against American Indian people, the entanglement of it in our history is grand and goes far beyond particular deportations.
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Feb 28, 2017 17:50
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Brainiac Five posted:Every scrap of wealth, every cultural artifact, everything involving anyone, anything, anywhere in the land ceded after the Mexican-American War is dependent for its existence on that event. Like slavery and like the genocides and ethnic cleansings committed against American Indian people, the entanglement of it in our history is grand and goes far beyond particular deportations. Yeah, nope. Thats land of the Native Americans. I don't know why you're trying to give what was stolen from natives to Mexicans. Especially when Mexico has such a horrible history against their natives.
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Feb 28, 2017 17:57
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Condiv posted:Centrists have made it clear they will not change. They flubbed an easy election and insist on retaining full control of the party. I missed this, is it true? For example I can't find the individual votes from the 2011 DNC election anywahere online. Changing the rules for this specific election to allow a secret ballot would be a clear sign that the Democrat establishment views itself in open conflict with progressives (and fears reprisals). I'd be a little shocked if it's true.
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Feb 28, 2017 18:05
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Secret ballots are bad now? You guys upset you can't threaten DNC members and stalk them over their vote or something? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 28, 2017 18:14
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Nocturtle posted:I missed this, is it true? For example I can't find the individual votes from the 2011 DNC election anywahere online. Changing the rules for this specific election to allow a secret ballot would be a clear sign that the Democrat establishment views itself in open conflict with progressives (and fears reprisals). I'd be a little shocked if it's true. The party of super delegates, the party of lobbyists voting for DNC chair, that party would shock you if they committed to less transparency? Brainiac Five posted:Secret ballots are bad now? You guys upset you can't threaten DNC members and stalk them over their vote or something? You are so goddamn annoying. How have you survived 20 pages of terrible posting and flaming?
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Feb 28, 2017 18:17
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Brainiac Five posted:Secret ballots are bad now? You guys upset you can't threaten DNC members and stalk them over their vote or something? Are you implying that they wish to threaten DNC members and stalk them over their vote? Because that sounds ad-hominem to me. As it is, how can one make informed decisions about people if they are not allowed to know where they stand?
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Feb 28, 2017 18:18
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Let's eliminate secret ballots in general elections too. Transparency!
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Feb 28, 2017 18:19
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Brainiac Five posted:Let's eliminate secret ballots in general elections too. Transparency! Sure, why not? If you have an objection, explain it to us, and how it relates to the situation at hand.
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Feb 28, 2017 18:19
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Nocturtle posted:I missed this, is it true? For example I can't find the individual votes from the 2011 DNC election anywahere online. Changing the rules for this specific election to allow a secret ballot would be a clear sign that the Democrat establishment views itself in open conflict with progressives (and fears reprisals). I'd be a little shocked if it's true. https://s3.amazonaws.com/uploads.democrats.org/Downloads/DNC_Charter__Bylaws_9.17.15.pdf article 9 section 12: "All meetings of the Democratic National Committee, the Executive Committee, and all other official Party committees, commissions and bodies shall be open to the public, and votes shall not be taken by secret ballot."
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Feb 28, 2017 18:20
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thechosenone posted:Are you implying that they wish to threaten DNC members and stalk them over their vote? Because that sounds ad-hominem to me. As it is, how can one make informed decisions about people if they are not allowed to know where they stand? What "informed decisions" do you need a panopticon in order to make? Are you employed by the NSA?
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Feb 28, 2017 18:20
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Probably don't need a panopticon, whatever that is, I would just like to know what the people who organize our party vote for, similar to how we know what congressmen vote for. Its the same as how we know who approves the appointment of high level officials.
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Feb 28, 2017 18:21
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thechosenone posted:Sure, why not? If you have an objection, explain it to us, and how it relates to the situation at hand. My objection would be in the form of the campaign staff I sent to the polls to beat the poo poo out of anyone who votes for my opponent.
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Feb 28, 2017 18:21
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Brainiac Five posted:Let's eliminate secret ballots in general elections too. Transparency! Let's make every single post about me and exaggerate every goddman thing I don't agree with. Hooray for me!
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Feb 28, 2017 18:22
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Brainiac Five posted:My objection would be in the form of the campaign staff I sent to the polls to beat the poo poo out of anyone who votes for my opponent. Haven't you not yet explained why you think beating the poo poo out of people is wrong?
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Feb 28, 2017 18:23
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Brainiac Five posted:Secret ballots are bad now? You guys upset you can't threaten DNC members and stalk them over their vote or something? Brainiac Five posted:Let's eliminate secret ballots in general elections too. Transparency! Brainiac Five posted:What "informed decisions" do you need a panopticon in order to make? Are you employed by the NSA? Brainiac Five posted:My objection would be in the form of the campaign staff I sent to the polls to beat the poo poo out of anyone who votes for my opponent. Wow!
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Feb 28, 2017 18:23
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thechosenone posted:Probably don't need a panopticon, whatever that is, I would just like to know what the people who organize our party vote for, similar to how we know what congressmen vote for. Its the same as how we know who approves the appointment of high level officials. Why? This isn't a governmental decision, so what is the compelling reason to publicize it beyond a desire to corrupt the process by threatening people who don't vote the way you like?
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Feb 28, 2017 18:23
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