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Moridin920 posted:Point to where in Das Kapital or any of Lenin's stuff it talks about the necessity of death panels for the sick/old and/or state population controls. Hah, it's the logical conclusion of things. You have X amount of something and need to divide it between Y amount of people. X/Y = And that's how it works
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Feb 28, 2017 18:38
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Like you're working off the supposition that the only possible way the system is sustainable is to massively reduce the population and/or kill the sick and elderly which is absolute nonsense sorry to say.Spunky Psycho Ho posted:Hah, it's the logical conclusion of things. You have X amount of something and need to divide it between Y amount of people. X/Y = And that's how it works Tom has ten million of X. Betsy has 10 of X. Jimmy has 10 of X. Wendy has 5 of X. James has 4 of X. 10 of X is required to live a good life. Tom says "gently caress Wendy and James, the free market deemed them unworthy." Socialists say "that's stupid, there is more than enough X to go around if things are shared out equitably and besides Tom only has 10 million X because of his exploitation of everyone else's work." Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Feb 28, 2017 |
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Feb 28, 2017 18:39
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Eventually that number has a cap you know
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Feb 28, 2017 18:41
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Spunky Psycho Ho posted:Eventually that number has a cap you know Okay so our population can't grow beyond what our resources are capable of sustaining therefore socialism is bad? The planet can only support X amount of humans therefore it is fine that 8 people own half of everything?
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Feb 28, 2017 18:41
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"Death panels are bad and that's why we can't have universal health care, it's much more ethical to distribute health care so the poor never get it"
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Feb 28, 2017 18:42
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Moridin920 posted:Okay so our population can't grow beyond what our resources are capable of sustaining therefore socialism is bad? I've never argued that this is fine, in fact I said the biggest problem is those 8 people (who all donated to Hillary fyi) But eventually there is a cap, and it would have to be enforced, and if you don't admit it or realize what that entails, you're selling a marshmellow castle in the sky to people
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Feb 28, 2017 18:43
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Spunky Psycho Ho posted:I've never argued that this is fine, in fact I said the biggest problem is those 8 people (who all donated to Hillary fyi) There is a cap but that has nothing to do with capitalism or socialism or anything. Of course there is a max population that our planet can sustain. Socialism doesn't demand constant population growth nor do humans do that naturally anyway. But instead of rehashing the overpopulation thing from yesterday I'll just say that I don't think the state will have to control the population in the way you are imagining. Certainly death panels for the old/sick are not a necessary component of socialism much less universal healthcare. e: In fact it seems like the most "well off" countries are the ones experiencing negative population growth.
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Feb 28, 2017 18:46
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Moridin920 posted:But instead of rehashing the overpopulation thing from yesterday I'll just say that I don't think the state will have to control the population in the way you are imagining. Certainly death panels for the old/sick are not a necessary component of socialism much less universal healthcare. There's only 10 disalysis machines and 20 people need them, 5 people need access 24/7 to them, what happens? Right now it's "whoever wants to keep throwing money down gets it"
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Feb 28, 2017 18:49
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Spunky Psycho Ho posted:There's only 10 disalysis machines and 20 people need them, 5 people need access 24/7 to them, what happens? Right now it's "whoever wants to keep throwing money down gets it" And so 8 of those people can't afford it and die. I would say the 5 that need 24/7 access can get it and the other 15 take turns until we make more dialysis machines. What's so bad about that? The other 95% of healthy people can't produce enough medical devices? e: I mean are you just asking me what a doctor would do in a triage situation? That has nothing to do with economics or healthcare that's just triage. If you can save 5 people but you only have the resources to save 4 then someone is out of luck but you're acting like we can never have enough resources for healthcare which is dumb because look at literally every other modern country. Nor is that a decision up to a 'death panel' that's just... triage. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Feb 28, 2017 |
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Feb 28, 2017 18:50
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Spunky Psycho Ho posted:There's only 10 disalysis machines and 20 people need them, 5 people need access 24/7 to them, what happens? Right now it's "whoever wants to keep throwing money down gets it" yes, I hate losing the bidding war for the dialysis machine
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Feb 28, 2017 18:52
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"guys we converted to socialism, now there will only ever be 20 dialysis machines ever."
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Feb 28, 2017 18:53
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It's just like look it already works in other countries! It's so insane to me that people just keep pretending like universal healthcare does not exist already. Then the argument becomes "well our population is higher!" on some kind of reverse American Exceptionalism, or like a higher population isn't actually better for your risk pool. No one is killing my grandma in Europe because she is 90+ and sickly nor do I have to bankrupt myself paying for her care even though she needs it 24/7.
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Feb 28, 2017 18:54
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Moridin920 posted:It's just like look it already works in other countries it's so insane to me that people just keep pretending like universal healthcare does not exist already. Then the argument becomes "well our population is higher!" on some kind of reverse American Exceptionalism, or like a higher population isn't actually better for your risk pool. I think our healthcare system is hosed beyond belief.
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Feb 28, 2017 18:56
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im the dialysis machine
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Feb 28, 2017 18:56
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runupon cracker posted:sorry, but it's a logical conclusion of being a society that forces people to have monetary income to survive im jokingly referring to right to work states and how thats working out
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Feb 28, 2017 18:58
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Jukebox Hero posted:The stupid false equivalency poo poo bugs the hell out of me. Conservatives find things to hate and attack, normal people defend what they think is important. Not going to waste bandwidth replying with the crybabby gif. I think people are aware of your perpetual state of salt at this point.
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Feb 28, 2017 18:58
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Mordy you don't have to debate people all day every day
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Feb 28, 2017 18:58
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Three dialysis machines for the Elven-kings under the sky, Seven for the dwarf-lords in their of stone, Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die, One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne.
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Feb 28, 2017 18:59
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Healthcare rationing is awful and communist!! *waits 3 hours to see the doctor who gives you a glance and then goes golfing*
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Feb 28, 2017 18:59
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Moridin920 posted:Point to where in Das Kapital or any of Lenin's stuff it talks about the necessity of death panels for the sick/old and/or state population controls. yeah moridin for some reason communism does not require slaughters to be part of the formalised political theory of itself for them to occur just gonna put it on record that i think universal healthcare is good tho, and communism/marxism has nothing to do with it
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Feb 28, 2017 18:59
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"DEATH PANELS!!!!!" *gets denied healthcare for pre existing conditions, insurance suddenly decides to not cover life saving medicine and procedures thank god for freedom.
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Feb 28, 2017 19:03
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Toadvine posted:Mordy you don't have to debate people all day every day I............. i'ma consider this more carefully Bulgogi Hoagie posted:yeah moridin for some reason communism does not require slaughters to be part of the formalised political theory of itself for them to occur Yeah well no one writes down that 20 million people are gonna die every year of easily preventable poo poo because  but they do.For example: http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/14-million-children-face-imminent-death-agency-45626571 quote:Feb 21, 2017, 7:06 AM ET and yet  e: http://www.thp.org/knowledge-center/know-your-world-facts-about-hunger-poverty/ quote:About 896 million people in developing countries live on $1.90 a day or less. that's just the kids quote:663 million people lack access to clean water. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Feb 28, 2017 |
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Feb 28, 2017 19:03
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Jukebox Hero posted:People who don't wanna go tell other people to stop being different under penalty of death or torture. Which, yes, is what conservatism is now. I mean, just look at this. L@@K AT THIS
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Feb 28, 2017 19:32
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Fog Tripper posted:I mean, just look at this. FEMA camps for homosexuals and half the population are maniacs bent on sadism
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Feb 28, 2017 19:46
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hey, i know it was a while ago, but to anyone in/reading hellthread whose interested in spergin' deeper into the concept of the carrying capacity of the planet, and the effects of chinese conspiraccy climate change, i highly recommend extremely frustrating, unfun, and impossible to win game Fate Of The World you get to do things like set up black ops agencies that covertly spread infertility drugs throughout india's water supply n poo poo. and its full of cool statistics, numbers, and a really obvious agenda crime weed fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Feb 28, 2017 |
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Feb 28, 2017 19:47
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quote:Conservatives find things to hate and attack, normal people defend what they think is important. Not counting the kooks both on the left and the right (from your pony-hair crazy people to your real life KKK "kill all the blacks" people), everyone is only defending what they think is important.
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Feb 28, 2017 19:53
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If everyone took a deep breath and just said what they really believed without framing it in these wedge issues ways, I'm sure the majority of people would have pretty similar outlooks
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Feb 28, 2017 19:57
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The modern GOP defense of self-sufficiency and standing on the side of 'the little businessman' is just a weak defense of unchecked unregulated and rampant greed with a refraction rate lower than that of air itself.
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Feb 28, 2017 19:59
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Jukebox Hero posted:Conservatives in office means harder times for the LGBT members of my family. This means I blanket oppose them. Have to poop in same place as others sharing the same plumbing at birth = "hard times"
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Feb 28, 2017 20:00
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we must fight for our right to poop and pee where we choose
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Feb 28, 2017 20:01
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Spunky owning babbys itt.
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Feb 28, 2017 20:02
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Kjoery posted:hey, i know it was a while ago, but to anyone in/reading hellthread whose interested in spergin' deeper into the concept of the carrying capacity of the planet, and the effects of chinese conspiraccy climate change, i highly recommend extremely frustrating, unfun, and impossible to win game I am unironically supportive of neutering the human race at this point.
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Feb 28, 2017 20:07
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Pretty much every economic system rations resources it's just a matter of who determines it. No system will satisfy everybody and personally if someone has to run something thats an important common good, its better for it to be a public servant/elected official than a businessman.
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Feb 28, 2017 20:10
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Fog Tripper posted:I am unironically supportive of neutering the human race at this point. indias a real tough nut to crack, though. they manage to choke their GDP to death no matter how much you try to help 90% of the time.
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Feb 28, 2017 20:14
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runupon cracker posted:^^^ you're right, it's much better to push this kind of decision making on the people who are actually dying and their loved ones It's actually no, no and no. And also, following his line of thought, a firm no to property rights - an absurd artificial state enforced social construct. Don't shackle me with your false oppressive morality! A bloo bloo I'm a libertarian retard
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Feb 28, 2017 20:14
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Fog Tripper posted:Have to poop in same place as others sharing the same plumbing at birth = "hard times" Yeah it's literally about this and nothing else. You're just as bad as the leftists who refuse to even try to see the other side and instead just immediately go to "lol you're a fascist!"
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Feb 28, 2017 20:15
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Private property is theft.
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Feb 28, 2017 20:16
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It's violence!
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Feb 28, 2017 20:16
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Bulgogi Hoagie posted:we must fight for our right to poop and pee where we choose I think we should follow India's practice of street pooping.
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Feb 28, 2017 20:16
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Capitalism is violence against the disadvantaged and unregulated Capitalism is tyranny of the haves vs. the have nots.
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Feb 28, 2017 20:17
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