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Veskit posted:It's not what I think it is it's what i Hope it becomes and I don't think puting a dude in jail for 17 years for being a racist jackass is progress on any level. Also cheering it as much as I've seen. For threatening people with a gun. That's not just being a jackass and we shouldn't downplay the seriousness of the crime just to make a case for more reasonable sentencing. This poo poo deserves to have the book thrown at it. The fact that the book needs drastic change is it's own issue.
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Mar 1, 2017 20:38
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xthetenth posted:I'm torn on it. I'm kind of glad to see the fangs coming out in this case, and I hope it actually leads to people giving it a more critical look, but it's probably just another one of those cases where it goes over the line to where everyone's comfortable throwing the book at them and is going to get used to normalize all sorts of wildly inappropriate punishments in the future and is just the exception that proves the rule. The wildly inappropriate punishment was normalized already: they were sentenced under laws that classified "gang activity" as terrorism. Also they refused a plea bargain, plea bargains being the other half of how and why grotesquely long sentences are normalized.
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Mar 1, 2017 20:41
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there wolf posted:For threatening people with a gun. That's not just being a jackass and we shouldn't downplay the seriousness of the crime just to make a case for more reasonable sentencing. This poo poo deserves to have the book thrown at it. The fact that the book needs drastic change is it's own issue. Fine racist oval office, my point still stands
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Mar 1, 2017 22:19
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Jack Gladney posted:The wildly inappropriate punishment was normalized already: they were sentenced under laws that classified "gang activity" as terrorism. Also they refused a plea bargain, plea bargains being the other half of how and why grotesquely long sentences are normalized. Yeah, I mean their case being used in opposition to campaigns against that punishment, because it's fair or something similar.
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Mar 1, 2017 22:29
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the reason for the long sentence for Torres was specifically for brandishing a weapon and making death threats with it. that's a whole other level above "racist jackass." that's "aggravated assault" and it's very serious. trying to downplay it, especially in a situation where black people are the victims, is super hosed up and you should probably take a think about why you're doing that. his wife got the "racist jackass" sentence, 6 years. she only got sent to jail because she refused to testify against her husband and take a plea. both got one more year than requested by the prosecution, probably because they pointed weapons at children during a birthday party for being black children Martian Manfucker fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Mar 2, 2017 |
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Mar 2, 2017 00:01
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Veskit posted:Fine racist oval office, my point still stands America's prison system isn't rehabilitation. At best it just delays their next crime. Under such ridiculous circumstances it makes sense to hope that someone who threatened a black child with a weapon for the crime of being black is prevented from continuing their horrible act for as long as possible. I fully believe that modern prisons should be abolished in favour of genuine rehabilitation centres, but given the state of the US penal system that's like wishing for fireproof ice.
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Mar 2, 2017 01:13
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Also please try not to use the word 'oval office' so freely. It's a lazy swear.
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Mar 2, 2017 01:14
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Tesseraction posted:America's prison system isn't rehabilitation. At best it just delays their next crime. Under such ridiculous circumstances it makes sense to hope that someone who threatened a black child with a weapon for the crime of being black is prevented from continuing their horrible act for as long as possible. Using this logic then under this system life is not than reasonable
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Mar 2, 2017 06:01
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Tesseraction posted:America's prison system isn't rehabilitation. At best it just delays their next crime. Under such ridiculous circumstances it makes sense to hope that someone who threatened a black child with a weapon for the crime of being black is prevented from continuing their horrible act for as long as possible. I'm sorry, but that's insane. You're legitimizing a terrible state of affairs because in this particular case it works out in a way that you're okay with. The US prison state is a holocaust inside our own borders and acting like it's okay in any way is excusing it. loving hell
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Mar 2, 2017 06:26
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Sorry but they brandished weapons and small children and adults while shouting racial slurs at them. Not going to shed a tear for them.
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Mar 2, 2017 06:30
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Squashing Machine posted:I'm sorry, but that's insane. You're legitimizing a terrible state of affairs because in this particular case it works out in a way that you're okay with. The US prison state is a holocaust inside our own borders and acting like it's okay in any way is excusing it. loving hell There's not a purity test for being 100% liberal about these things.
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Mar 2, 2017 06:38
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Squashing Machine posted:I'm sorry, but that's insane. You're legitimizing a terrible state of affairs because in this particular case it works out in a way that you're okay with. The US prison state is a holocaust inside our own borders and acting like it's okay in any way is excusing it. loving hell No, it's that there's an order of magnitude more cases that never make the news, so everybody is going to roll their eyes at the idea that this would be the one that gets anybody reconsidering the prison state. I agree with you on the general principle, but I have zero energy to spare for these shitheads.
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Mar 2, 2017 06:38
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Squashing Machine posted:I'm sorry, but that's insane. You're legitimizing a terrible state of affairs because in this particular case it works out in a way that you're okay with. The US prison state is a holocaust inside our own borders and acting like it's okay in any way is excusing it. loving hell That's great, but that it just so happens the one time this poo poo hits a white couple it gets a stink raised over it when nobody bats an eye at black teenagers getting massive sentences for dumb poo poo like weed possession is kind of the entire problem.
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Mar 2, 2017 06:40
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I'm not black, but I have this feeling that maybe black folk would feel more comfortable with easing sentences if first America got people stung with mandatory minimums OUT of prison and into reasonable rehabilitation programs so they can join the workforce as a free individual and not as a 13th amendment backdoor slave. For some reason the argument for easing ludicrous sentences always gets pushed harder when the accused is white, wonder why that is?
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Mar 2, 2017 06:41
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The Shortest Path posted:That's great, but that it just so happens the one time this poo poo hits a white couple it gets a stink raised over it when nobody bats an eye at black teenagers getting massive sentences for dumb poo poo like weed possession is kind of the entire problem. But the next time this conversation happens, they'll remember that we were okay with this particular punishment. And that weakens us. You're abandoning a good post because in this case it is emotionally expedient. Dismantle the US prison state, don't collaborate with it
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Mar 2, 2017 06:43
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Veskit posted:Fine racist oval office, my point still stands I had to read this like six time to realize you weren't calling me a racist oval office. But yeah, there's a lot of cases I'd use as the poster child for the broken system before this one, if only because for once people doing legitimately dangerous stuff got the punishment legitimately dangerous stuff should get under our horrible hosed up system. I know and empathize with the idea of total reform of the justice system for every reason stated. This case just sets me off because too many people think these shitheads all got 17 years because of the flags. I'm prickly about it.
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Mar 2, 2017 06:56
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[ed:] this post was a bad idea and i'm gonna get rid of it.
BRAKE FOR MOOSE fucked around with this message at 07:02 on Mar 2, 2017 |
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Mar 2, 2017 06:58
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Edit: BRAKE FOR MOOSE edited his post, and so will I.
Squashing Machine fucked around with this message at 07:17 on Mar 2, 2017 |
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Mar 2, 2017 07:04
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Let's all heal and watch some great TV together. PBS's series Africa's Great Civilizations is up for streaming online now. Henry Louis Gates Jr. is the best and I should apologize to him for how I think of National Treasure every time I see his name.
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Mar 2, 2017 07:19
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Colorism is pretty common all over the globe, even in places like India where it predates white invasion. It has been suggested to me that, predating colonization, colorism, at least in India, may have been a class/caste things as people of lower castes/class did more outdoors work which leads to greater sun exposure and darker skin. As such, darker skin became a mark of low status and undesirable. I'm not sure if this was just bullshit lies though. While I'm here, check out this awesome woman's article on what happens when a woman deletes a man's comment: https://theestablishment.co/when-a-woman-deletes-a-mans-comment-online-4da77027ac60#.4q8qlmv0k I'm probably gonna cross post this in the feminism thread, but it belongs here too.
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Mar 2, 2017 09:10
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Let's all heal and watch some great TV together. PBS's series Africa's Great Civilizations is up for streaming online now. Henry Louis Gates Jr. is the best and I should apologize to him for how I think of National Treasure every time I see his name. Thanks for this. I got the chance to visit Great Zimbabwe once, and it's absolutely amazing.
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Mar 2, 2017 12:21
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Fluffdaddy posted:Sorry but they brandished weapons and small children and adults while shouting racial slurs at them. Not going to shed a tear for them. Me neither... But I'm still going to speak about how long prison sentencing for the crime of wanting a trial is a bad thing, prison overpopulation (specifically for non-violent drug offenses), the human rights violations that are rampant in private prisons, escalator laws like hate-crime and gang-laws that are disproportionately used against black people and other people of color to banish them to prison until they're too old to do anything with their lives, et al It's okay to spike the football that ONE TIME the loving justice system appears to be getting it right... but this system is still bullshit for all the same reasons. Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Let's all heal and watch some great TV together. PBS's series Africa's Great Civilizations is up for streaming online now. Henry Louis Gates Jr. is the best and I should apologize to him for how I think of National Treasure every time I see his name. The only thing I remember about Gates is how he had the opportunity for any beer in the world for a white house visit with a cop and the president, and his dumb-rear end asked for a Sam Adams Light. He's never going to live that down. I should totally watch that show. Chilichimp fucked around with this message at 13:24 on Mar 2, 2017 |
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Mar 2, 2017 13:15
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Maybe if white people are getting outrageously long prison sentences for being racist shitheads there will be pressure for reform in the criminal justice system. Because it seems like its only going to happen when the most untouchable of society is suddenly affected by it.
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Mar 2, 2017 17:50
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That seems a little bit wishful thinking, since Wall Street still exists.
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Mar 2, 2017 17:54
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Panfilo posted:Maybe if white people are getting outrageously long prison sentences for being racist shitheads there will be pressure for reform in the criminal justice system. Because it seems like its only going to happen when the most untouchable of society is suddenly affected by it. Nah, they'll just write better laws that specify minority gangs in a non-specific way.
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Mar 2, 2017 18:17
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Oh look, another GRS red text. Thanks, whoever. Another Great Nuanced Take Edit: Panfilo posted:Maybe if white people are getting outrageously long prison sentences for being racist shitheads there will be pressure for reform in the criminal justice system. Because it seems like its only going to happen when the most untouchable of society is suddenly affected by it. Historically, it never works out that way. Sentencing has a tendency to creep upward and there are very few politicians who go to bat against the prison system. Saying "I'm fine with outsized sentences when they're applied in a way that I find personally satisfying" robs you of the moral high ground you need when facing off against a conservative who gets hard at the thought of 20 year sentencing minimums for drug possession. Squashing Machine fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Mar 2, 2017 |
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Mar 2, 2017 19:11
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Squashing Machine posted:Oh look, another GRS red text. Thanks, whoever. Another Great Nuanced Take Hahaha you had the mildest of all takes on this subject but you made out with the red text. Way to go!
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Mar 2, 2017 19:34
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Veskit posted:Hahaha you had the mildest of all takes on this subject but you made out with the red text. Way to go! Haha, right? I didn't realize criticizing the implicit cheerleading of a broken justice system would be enough to rustle the jimmies of whoever keeps buying these things.
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Mar 2, 2017 19:49
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Squashing Machine posted:Haha, right? I didn't realize criticizing the implicit cheerleading of a broken justice system would be enough to rustle the jimmies of whoever keeps buying these things. This was one of those situations where it was better to avoid pointing it out when the criminal was white as the first time you're seen making the argument.
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Mar 2, 2017 20:37
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Yeah we agitate about the abuses of the criminal justice system for literal centuries, but white people only show up when it's one of their own up against the wall. People here love to go "well obviously harm to minorities is bad too," but it's not obvious you think that, because you never mention it unprompted. It's just a defense mechanism when someone points out what humanitarians you all become when white people make the news.
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Mar 2, 2017 20:41
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biracial bear for uncut posted:This was one of those situations where it was better to avoid pointing it out when the criminal was white as the first time you're seen making the argument. But there wasn't an inconsistency at play there? People who've identified as left-leaning on these forums have typically been consistent about the need for sweeping justice reform and the end of draconian sentencing. It's inconsistent, however, to claim you believe these things and treat an example of this kind of sentencing with a wink and smirk because it's satisfying. People are throwing out equivocations about how this punishment will discourage hate crime in the same way a conservative would argue that harsh drug and burglary sentences will discourage drug use and theft. We know that harsh sentences do nothing as deterrents and everything to enforce injustice, so why give it a pass here? It's a moment like this where you get to show that you're not just paying lip service to your values.
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Mar 2, 2017 20:49
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biracial bear for uncut posted:This was one of those situations where it was better to avoid pointing it out when the criminal was white as the first time you're seen making the argument. poo poo, is that what I've been doing wrong? I've been wanting to change my av forever and have been angling for a red text just to waste somebody's cash on it. Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Yeah we agitate about the abuses of the criminal justice system for literal centuries, but white people only show up when it's one of their own up against the wall. People here love to go "well obviously harm to minorities is bad too," but it's not obvious you think that, because you never mention it unprompted. It's just a defense mechanism when someone points out what humanitarians you all become when white people make the news. Hell, I'm trying not to be trash but that's the first thing I had to say on the subject for a while just because it doesn't get mentioned when it isn't white people. It's easy to let things slide into the background when they happen on an ongoing basis.
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Mar 2, 2017 21:33
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Squashing Machine posted:Haha, right? I didn't realize criticizing the implicit cheerleading of a broken justice system would be enough to rustle the jimmies of whoever keeps buying these things. Said person aims for the reasonable in order to try to stir poo poo and drive wedges/make others in this thread look unreasonable. Don't fall for it.
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Mar 2, 2017 21:37
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Panfilo posted:Maybe if white people are getting outrageously long prison sentences for being racist shitheads there will be pressure for reform in the criminal justice system. Because it seems like its only going to happen when the most untouchable of society is suddenly affected by it. Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Yeah we agitate about the abuses of the criminal justice system for literal centuries, but white people only show up when it's one of their own up against the wall. People here love to go "well obviously harm to minorities is bad too," but it's not obvious you think that, because you never mention it unprompted. It's just a defense mechanism when someone points out what humanitarians you all become when white people make the news. I spoke with someone who briefly worked for the Ohio Justice and Policy Center who confided in me a story of when the group was invited to speak with representatives in Ashtabula County about criminal justice reforms. The gist of the story is that the politicians were all, "White people, white people, white people. This is bad. White people, white people, white people, please help us help white people." And all but asking the group to do what you are suggesting, which is help them craft laws that specifically apply to minorities. And when the group enthusiastically replied that, yes they very much want to do something to address these struggling and suffering white people and reform the system the politicians were all on board. However, the moment they added "Black people, Hispanic people, LGBTQ+ people, the mentally and physically disabled..." The politicians shut down hard and, according to this guy, walked out of the talk. They weren't even willing to trade and barter better situations for white people in exchange for better situations for minorities. It was something they appeared to desperately want but they dropped it and walked away from the negotiating table. I was still dumb as gently caress when I talked to him (I'm still dumb as gently caress now, btw, but less so) and I asked him why they didn't just at least get any reforms they could. He told me he asked them the same thing, and an older guy in the org told him that the why of why they couldn't just fix it for white folks without stringing others along is that if they did the other folks would never get their reforms because nobody gives a gently caress about them and the org would have nothing to barter with. You can't just give white people what they want and expect them to come back for you, they wont. You gotta exchange better conditions for white people for better conditions for others because they won't happen otherwise. Basically, things are gonna have to keep seeping up and getting terrible for white people until the politicians don't have the luxury of walking away anymore and organizations like the OJPC are gonna have to keep holding white people hostage to get real change and reform for everyone and sigh. Squashing Machine posted:But there wasn't an inconsistency at play there? People who've identified as left-leaning on these forums have typically been consistent about the need for sweeping justice reform and the end of draconian sentencing. It's inconsistent, however, to claim you believe these things and treat an example of this kind of sentencing with a wink and smirk because it's satisfying. People are throwing out equivocations about how this punishment will discourage hate crime in the same way a conservative would argue that harsh drug and burglary sentences will discourage drug use and theft. We know that harsh sentences do nothing as deterrents and everything to enforce injustice, so why give it a pass here? It's a moment like this where you get to show that you're not just paying lip service to your values. Urgh, yeah. I had a "I need to keep working at me" moment about this because I was immediately stoked that they got hosed by those very same minority targeting gang laws you're talking about. It was vindication and my immediate sentiment of, "Throw 'em in the oubliette!" Horrified me upon reflection because that's not what I am about or what I believe in. But gosh it's uncomfortable to use this particular instance as a platform to push for reform... because racism. I'm gonna keep working on myself. What do you think should have happened to them? I'm thinking community service. Make them work in that black community and fill in potholes and repair homes and loving talk to them for the next 15 years.
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Mar 2, 2017 21:44
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Jenner posted:Urgh, yeah. I had a "I need to keep working at me" moment about this because I was immediately stoked that they got hosed by those very same minority targeting gang laws you're talking about. It was vindication and my immediate sentiment of, "Throw 'em in the oubliette!" Horrified me upon reflection because that's not what I am about or what I believe in. But gosh it's uncomfortable to use this particular instance as a platform to push for reform... because racism. I'm gonna keep working on myself. There's nothing wrong with appreciating irony, man. What should have happened to them is what did happen to them, in my opinion. Yeah, in an ideal world, I'd have had them doing community service, doing public works projects in the communities they terrorized, worked hand in hand with some black people, un-ignorant themselves... But this is the world we got, and if black kids are going to jail for 10 years because they were "in a gang" when a crime was committed, a white middle aged douche can go to jail for driving around with a bunch of battleflag-waving rednecks and pointing a shotgun at a black family birthday party. THE CRIME in all of this, is that all too often white people skate for poo poo that black people rot in jail for. Chilichimp fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Mar 2, 2017 |
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Mar 2, 2017 21:51
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Jenner posted:Urgh, yeah. I had a "I need to keep working at me" moment about this because I was immediately stoked that they got hosed by those very same minority targeting gang laws you're talking about. It was vindication and my immediate sentiment of, "Throw 'em in the oubliette!" Horrified me upon reflection because that's not what I am about or what I believe in. But gosh it's uncomfortable to use this particular instance as a platform to push for reform... because racism. I'm gonna keep working on myself. Hey, I can't fault you for that initial reaction, it's part of why reforming the punitive justice system is such a difficult sell: it feels good to see people you despise get punished. But, you recognized that reaction and then thought, "wait, that's not consistent with my beliefs and I should unpack why I reacted that way," and that's where the good work happens. And, in a moment like this where that first reaction is kind of a safe one to stay with, it's the most important time to apply that consistency. I'm not sure what I'd pose as proper punishment here. I think jail time was appropriate, but as much as I can say that 17 years seems like a play out of the "let's make this person an example" book, I'm not sure what an appropriate sentence would've been. It's hard to use other cases as a baseline because hate crime tends to go underpunished in the first place.
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Mar 2, 2017 22:05
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Yeah, I don't want to spend too much time talking about white people and white people feelings in this thread and I hope we're not skirting too close to this with this discussion. Criminal justice reform is a big loving deal, hate crime is a big loving deal, and the law disproportionately targets people of color and minority populations. It's not even subtle that the police are just out to oppress people! And sometimes they just loving proudly scream it. Like, did you know that some police departnent in Kentucky literally had loving skulls emblazoned on a few squad cars and nobody was like, "Wait a minute." (Check it out.) All I could think of was that sketch where the Nazi soldier realizes they've got skull iconography on their uniforms and suddenly wonders, "Are we the baddies?" These fuckers didn't even have that clarity. Just... yikes. Cops say it's just a few bad apples but this was an entire goddamn department all, "This is fine." Norm Stamper told everyone this poo poo was systemic and now he's probably hiding on an island somewhere because cops want him dead for telling the truth. Just gross...
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Mar 2, 2017 22:29
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Was hoping for some help framing this phenomenon in my mind. Read this initial post: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3032491&pagenumber=3117&perpage=40#post469876981 through to: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3032491&pagenumber=3117&perpage=40#post469878126 I expanded on what I was trying to get at to my friend with: Do you feel like there is a pattern there -- that some black thinkers will treat broad and complex domains such as physics as heavily acculturated and feel like they can ignore the currently established axioms and applications because of that perceived tainting?
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Mar 2, 2017 22:29
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Jenner posted:Urgh, yeah. I had a "I need to keep working at me" moment about this because I was immediately stoked that they got hosed by those very same minority targeting gang laws you're talking about. It was vindication and my immediate sentiment of, "Throw 'em in the oubliette!" Horrified me upon reflection because that's not what I am about or what I believe in. But gosh it's uncomfortable to use this particular instance as a platform to push for reform... because racism. I'm gonna keep working on myself. I did and still enjoy the irony of it and think well of the prosecution for applying that poo poo law in a fairer way. If we had a Scandinavian-style justice system with a strong focus on rehabilitation and humane conditions for prisoners, then I'd still support some jail time because hate crimes and threatening people with a weapon are serious poo poo that deserve some kind of penalty. 2-3 years of your life and some kind of probation that would have you working on directly confronting your prejudices.
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Mar 2, 2017 22:33
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kimbo305 posted:Was hoping for some help framing this phenomenon in my mind. since black people are not a monolith i dont understand what you are trying to get at with this question. Let me retort with this: Alex Jones said that the illuminati are out here killing white babies to bring along white genocide. Do you feel like there is a pattern there -- that some white thinkers will treat broad and complex domains such as physics as heavily acculturated and feel like they can ignore the currently established axioms and applications because of that perceived tainting?
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Mar 2, 2017 23:16
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