|
When people look at statistics for "foreign background" what they usually think is "brown people", while the number cited usually includes everyone with at least one parent born in any other country. We have had open borders and liberal right of residence between the Nordic countries since, what, 1949? 1950? (E: 1952.) IIRC, in Sweden, somewhere around half of all the people with foreign background have their roots in Finland. I suspect the case may be similar in Norway, but with Sweden replacing Finland. The poors takin' are jerbs are universal. (Scandinavians posting here most likely know this, trying to clarify for the benefit of y'all dirty foreigners) TheFluff fucked around with this message at 12:18 on Mar 2, 2017 |
#
?
Mar 2, 2017 12:14
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 14:47 |
|
|
Cerebral Bore posted:Now here's a free tip for you, the problem here isn't immigrants, it's lovely-rear end neoliberal governments who keep pushing an utterly failed economic model because this benefits their owners. Maybe but then you need to fix that first because until its fixed, more immigration will be like throwing more gas on the fire.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2017 12:16
|
|
|
Heinz Hynkel posted:Maybe but then you need to fix that first because until its fixed, more immigration will be like throwing more gas on the fire. Thing is, pretending that immigrants are the problem lets the aforementioned lovely-rear end neoliberals use the immigrants as a scapegoat to shift the blame away from their own failures, which solves nothing. Hence you're not abolishing neoliberalism ever if you buy into the idea that immigrants are the problem.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2017 12:24
|
|
|
TheFluff posted:When people look at statistics for "foreign background" what they usually think is "brown people", while the number cited usually includes everyone with at least one parent born in any other country. We have had open borders and liberal right of residence between the Nordic countries since, what, 1949? 1950? IIRC, in Sweden, somewhere around half of all the people with foreign background have their roots in Finland. I suspect the case may be similar in Norway, but with Sweden replacing Finland. The poors takin' are jerbs are universal. The Finnish were the original hated minority in Sweden so yeah... Heinz Hynkel posted:Maybe but then you need to fix that first because until its fixed, more immigration will be like throwing more gas on the fire. Norway isn't receiving enough non-working immigrants for you to be able to make that argument. Your three biggest groups are all from the EU. https://www.ssb.no/en/befolkning/statistikker/innvbef/aar/2016-03-03 quote:Immigrants from Poland still made up the largest immigrant group in the country, with 95 700 persons, and now constitute almost 14 per cent of immigrants in Norway. Also the argument is nonsense. Immigrants even if they did exist on the scale you envision are in no way preventing systemic change. It is domestic interests that are keeping the current order entrenched. MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 12:27 on Mar 2, 2017 |
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2017 12:25
|
|
|
MiddleOne posted:The Finnish were the original hated minority in Sweden so yeah... "Blant de til sammen 884.000 personene i Norge med innvandrerbakgrunn, har 46 prosent (407.500) bakgrunn fra land i Asia og Afrika. 43 prosent (377.500) er fra EU og EØS-området og andre vestlige land. Det viser tall Statistisk sentralbyrå (SSB) la fram torsdag. Nesten 100.000 i denne gruppen er fra Polen, som dermed er det landet som har flest innvandret i Norge. " The 43% group is just as bad as the other but in different ways. Yes they work but they has driven salaries down and made worker rights worse. We even got mafia tendencies in the construction sector because of this group. And there is LOTS of criminals among them. The only group of working immigrants that I like is the party Swedes. I am okay with them taking the awful poo poo jobs of telemarketing, bartenders and banana peelers.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2017 12:38
|
|
|
That's counting literally everyone currently alive to have arrived in Norway and all of their children. Come on, you know that your reception has been minuscule when compared to Sweden or Germany.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2017 12:47
|
|
|
Heinz Hynkel posted:"Blant de til sammen 884.000 personene i Norge med innvandrerbakgrunn, har 46 prosent (407.500) bakgrunn fra land i Asia og Afrika. They immigrants haven't driven salaries down, the employers have. And of course they do, it's in their interest to maximise profits and minimise expenses because otherwise their companies will become increasingly uncompetitive, and may even fail. Capitalism is bad.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2017 12:48
|
|
|
ThaumPenguin posted:They immigrants haven't driven salaries down, the employers have. So whats a realistic solution to counter this then?
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2017 12:51
|
|
|
McCloud posted:So whats a realistic solution to counter this then? Employment regulation, import regulation, stricter trade agreements, union empowerment, de-privatization, less consumption oriented taxes, more marginal income taxes, more capital gains taxes, more public investment, the death of the World bank and the IMF, etc etc etc... Or as increasingly many posters in D&D seem to prefer in this post-Trump world, full communism now.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2017 12:58
|
|
|
It's pretty incredible to see people in the age of automation and rampant outsourcing argue with a straight face that if we just throw out a minuscule fraction of of a country's population then those nefarious capitalists surely have no option but to go back to the age of full employment and good wages.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2017 13:03
|
|
|
MiddleOne posted:That's counting literally everyone currently alive to have arrived in Norway and all of their children. Come on, you know that your reception has been minuscule when compared to Sweden or Germany. In pure numbers, yes. Compared to population, I don't think the numbers are that different but ofc Sweden has more. Still, Sweden got no-go zones and car burning + lots and lots of grenade attacks (wtf?) so I think its wise for the moment to not increase our immigration. Without integration, immigration leads to chaos. Thankfully we just need to look over the border to know this. Yes, we should be thankful to the Swedes for showing us the real consequences of their actions.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2017 13:10
|
|
|
Heinz Hynkel posted:In pure numbers, yes. Compared to population, I don't think the numbers are that different but ofc Sweden has more. Still, Sweden got no-go zones and car burning + lots and lots of grenade attacks (wtf?) http://www.government.se/articles/2017/02/facts-about-migration-and-crime-in-sweden/
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2017 13:12
|
|
|
MiddleOne posted:Employment regulation, import regulation, stricter trade agreements, union empowerment, de-privatization, less consumption oriented taxes, more marginal income taxes, more capital gains taxes, more public investment, the death of the World bank and the IMF, etc etc etc... You don't need all that. You just need the destruction of the EU. We are not even a member but our Quisling politicians still manged to gently caress us with that horrid organization. I still feel a deep hatred towards Arbeider partiet for that. We, the people, voted NO! ffs!
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2017 13:14
|
|
|
Heinz Hynkel posted:You don't need all that. You just need the destruction of the EU. We are not even a member but our Quisling politicians still manged to gently caress us with that horrid organization. I still feel a deep hatred What part of the EU in particular are you contesting?
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2017 13:17
|
|
|
MiddleOne posted:http://www.government.se/articles/2017/02/facts-about-migration-and-crime-in-sweden/ That article seems to be very focused on Muslims. Well, what about this: https://www.svd.se/svenska-attacker-med-granater-sticker-ut-i-varlden And this: http://edition.cnn.com/2017/02/21/europe/sweden-stockholm-riots/ Being good is going to be very expensive: http://www.aftenposten.no/verden/Fakta-om-innvandring-til-Sverige_-som-svenskene-ikke-vil-snakke-om-72407b.html All is well in Sweden.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2017 13:21
|
|
|
Cerebral Bore posted:It's pretty incredible to see people in the age of automation and rampant outsourcing argue with a straight face that if we just throw out a minuscule fraction of of a country's population then those nefarious capitalists surely have no option but to go back to the age of full employment and good wages. B--but you see, the "immigrants" have j-jobs! And the amount of jobs is zero-sum. M-my culture 
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2017 13:21
|
|
|
McCloud posted:So whats a realistic solution to counter this then? Yeah that's a bit of a pickle. Changing the system so that people own and control their own workplace rather than having them be owned by shareholders and such would be a decent step in the right direction. Of course there's still the problem of how specialised the world has become in regards to production. Most western countries primarily employ people within the service industry, which leaves them heavily dependent on foreign industry for producing goods and materials. If that foreign industry is still privately owned as well, they'd probably be less than eager to enact contracts with socialist companies. A worker-owned company would in all likelihood be much less competitive on the market, as their prime motivation would be ensuring decent livelihoods for their workers rather than maximising profits. So you can't really gradually transition from privately owned companies to worker-owned companies, you'd need for a somewhat simultaneous seizure of most companies, so that the market mainly involved worker-owned businesses competing with each other rather than against private ones. That's a market socialist approach which doesn't necessarily support my views, partially for the reasons I've highlighted.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2017 13:22
|
|
|
Nice piece of fish posted:B--but you see, the "immigrants" have j-jobs! And the amount of jobs is zero-sum. M-my culture The traitorous left want to blame our brave capitalists (who have all the money) for keeping money away from us. This is obviously wrong. The heroic right want to blame it all on destitute economic migrants and refugees (who have no money) for keeping all the money away from us. This makes logical sense and is obviously correct and cool and good.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2017 13:24
|
|
|
TheFluff posted:When people look at statistics for "foreign background" what they usually think is "brown people", while the number cited usually includes everyone with at least one parent born in any other country. We have had open borders and liberal right of residence between the Nordic countries since, what, 1949? 1950? (E: 1952.) IIRC, in Sweden, somewhere around half of all the people with foreign background have their roots in Finland. I suspect the case may be similar in Norway, but with Sweden replacing Finland. The poors takin' are jerbs are universal. Up until like the middle 90s, Haparanda was the city with the highest ratio of immigrants. Dirty Finns stealing our jobs. There is however a split in the 80s, when immigration switched from labour immigrants to asylum immigrants and ever since then the proportion of non-west immigrants to Sweden have been increasing. Both the ratio as well as the total amount of immigrants have gone up since then.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2017 13:44
|
|
|
Heinz Hynkel posted:That article seems to be very focused on Muslims. It's a direct government response to spurious claims made by Fox News and the president of the United States to paint Sweden as a post-immigration dystopia which is in direct conflict with both facts and reality. Also, Swedish biker gangs in the 90's used to fire RPG rounds in the streets. Believe me, this is nothing. The grenade attacks made for head-line grabbing news segments but in the end very few have actually been hurt by them. You can contrast this to shootings were we are actually having a problem due to an ever-growing spiral of retaliatory gang-attacks in the last 2 years. Reminder that Sweden is one of the safest countries in the world. I could give you an entire lecture on the many facets of our miljonprogram riots (and there have been so many studies made on this subject) but fact of the matter is that they have been steadily decreasing in the last decade, not increasing. Second reminder that Sweden is one of the safest countries in the world. Heinz Hynkel posted:http://www.aftenposten.no/verden/Fakta-om-innvandring-til-Sverige_-som-svenskene-ikke-vil-snakke-om-72407b.html This 2014 article is just straight up full of falsehoods but that doesn't really surprise me as it effectively is a propaganda piece manufactured to justify a harsher stance in Norway. Today the Swedish economy is doing great both by European and Scandinavian measurements, we're running a budgetary surplus, we have low unemployment levels and that's despite still not being done processing the 154 000 immigrants we received in 2015 before the enactment of the border controls. Receiving refugees has its challenges but it turns out that it also boosts demand which is great for the economy. Oh yes, and in case you forgot we're one of the safest countries in the world. Off-topic: Cardiac I can sense you hovering over you keyboard but can we in this case please just not? MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 13:54 on Mar 2, 2017 |
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2017 13:52
|
|
|
A problem or issue that Norway has is that such a high percentage of immigrants, especially non-western immigrants, settle or are settled in and around Oslo. 16% is the national average, in Oslo the number is more like 30-35% (though alot of these are Swedes), and in surronding cities like Drammen the percentage is ~25% (mostly non-Western), whereas the next two largest cities in the country (after Oslo), Bergen and Trondheim, both are at or below the national average. It's another example of the centralization trend when it comes to population.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2017 15:59
|
|
|
Heinz Hynkel posted:In pure numbers, yes. Compared to population, I don't think the numbers are that different but ofc Sweden has more. Still, Sweden got no-go zones and car burning + lots and lots of grenade attacks (wtf?) lol
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2017 18:45
|
|
|
Why?
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2017 19:11
|
|
|
Heinz Hynkel posted:Why? "No-go zones" aren't real.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2017 19:56
|
|
|
His Divine Shadow posted:Heard sweden reintroduced conscription again. Guess that whole professional army stuff wasn't working out: 
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2017 20:23
|
|
|
ThaumPenguin posted:"No-go zones" aren't real. Oh? I would consider areas where the police don't dare to interfere as no-go zones. I would also consider areas where aid-service as fire-fight teams and such where prevented as no-go zones. What do you think? Just asking for a friend.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2017 20:28
|
|
|
it all boils down to semantics, or whatever. the word no go zone sounds dumb and is perfect for media in other countries to spout again and again. However, inability to get fire-fighters and police in an area without doing an operation or escort duty is abhorrent and shouldn't happen in sweden.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2017 20:32
|
|
|
Wild Horses posted:it all boils down to semantics, or whatever. Well I agree. We have zero of that in Norway and I think its insane that its possible in Sweden. I mean, wtf?
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2017 20:35
|
|
|
The proper English term would be march, denoting a borderland between two realms in which different laws might apply.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2017 21:05
|
|
|
Heinz Hynkel posted:Why? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euOzSG079fg
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2017 21:16
|
|
|
That excites my no-go zone.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2017 22:18
|
|
|
I grew up in Botkyrka - confirming it's post-apocalyptic.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2017 22:19
|
|
so that means I can be a cheapskate and post about posting instead of having some wit or spending any more on comedy avs for people. Which I'm also incapable of. Comedy.
|
Wild Horses posted:it all boils down to semantics, or whatever. have you ever been to any of these places? they're the most boring loving million program concrete suburbs you can imagine the vast majority of the time. the police is there and is visible on foot on the street, ambulance and firefighters go there all the loving time without anything even remotely remarkable happening. it's not a war zone, it's not dangerous to the regular citizen, it's mostly full of completely loving ordinary people with regular jobs who pay their taxes and live completely ordinary lives. you can take your grandma for a fika in Husby centrum if you like and the worst thing that is likely to happen to you is getting a dry kanelbulle. want to do something dangerous in stockholm? go to like, stureplan (really posh inner city clubbing area) on a friday night and be drunk - congratulations, you're in a gigantic loving risk zone for getting assaulted. the thing that was pointed out in the original report that was blown up into this whole loving "rosengård is literally worse than aleppo" shitshow was that in these areas, there's a pretty widespread distrust for police and the government in general, criminal gangs have a negative effect on local society (especially young men, like everywhere else on the planet), and the crime rate is higher compared to the rest of sweden. the whole "AMBULANCE ATTACKED!!" stuff happens when there's rioting, which really isn't all that often. like, yes, there is a problem that has gotten worse in recent years (like the last three or four in particular), but it's not new at all (young men rioting, knocking out windows and throwing stones at the police is not limited to foreigners or suburbs), it's far smaller than everyone seems to have gotten into their heads, and it's most definitely not impossible to deal with since it's possible to get rather drastic effects with simple measures. in fact I'd say one of the major problems here is chronic mismanagement of the police - there's money being thrown at them but with very little to show for it, and I think a lot of it is disappearing into constant ~restructuring~ and new public management bullshit. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 23:52 on Mar 2, 2017 |
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2017 23:27
|
|
|
Addendum: I was at a seminar last year where a police officer talked for a while about what the officers on the street are actually doing, and one of his major points was that every single weekend, from friday afternoon to sunday morning, for practical purposes most available police resources as well as a majority of hospital emergency room resources are occupied by fighting... guess what? Not muslims, nor drug sellers, nor hand grenade attacks, nor burglars, but what alcohol does to your average Mr. Svensson. It causes him to become a violent and aggressive creature, a barbarian who gets into fist- or knifefights, harasses women and passes out in flowerbeds. It's his culture that he shows no signs of changing, and it is clearly incompatible with what we consider acceptable in this country. He should adjust or leave, imho. e: further addendum: wanna know where the police doesn't want to get out of their cars because of the hostile environment? mcdonalds on sveavägen (next to the stockholm city library) on one of those days when it's full of hundreds of raggare and bikers TheFluff fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Mar 2, 2017 |
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2017 23:45
|
|
|
Ambulance units getting slowed down by needing police escort, the crews being threatened or assaulted and it generally being very stressful is nothing to gloss over. Everybody in Sweden deserves things like libraries, emergency care and there being police for regular crimes and general safety, and right now there are parts of Sweden that don't get it in the same quality as other parts. It's fine if you think its totally alright for things to be this way, but I disagree with this notion. That these ambulance guys get attacked shows to me that there is a serious inequality in our society, and I want it adressed.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2017 00:02
|
|
|
Wild Horses posted:Ambulance units getting slowed down by needing police escort, the crews being threatened or assaulted and it generally being very stressful is nothing to gloss over. Could you enlighten me about how any of said problems will get better by scearming about how the darkies must be thrown out?
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2017 00:05
|
|
|
Wild Horses posted:It's fine if you think its totally alright for things to be this way, but I disagree with this notion. this is what I literally said: "there is a problem that has gotten worse " how do you even get from that to "it's fine if you think its totally alright for things to be this way" you strawmanning dumbass (edited for accurate quote, lest I strawman the strawmanner) Like, not even the dumbest Södermalm hipster stereotype people will say that rioting in Rinkeby is cool and good. There is certainly nobody in this thread who has said or even implied that. The only thing I'm trying to do here is getting some loving sense of proportion back into this retarded discussion, because it's impossible to even attempt to have a reasonable political discourse if you constantly have these ridiculous smokescreens of alt-right buzzwords obscuring every single possible political issue or socioeconomic trend that isn't (or cannot be implied to be caused by) THE MUSLIM THREAT. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Mar 3, 2017 |
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2017 00:22
|
|
|
TheFluff posted:this is what I literally said: "there is a problem that has gotten worse " You start from the conclusion that areas where swarthy people live must be crime-ridden hellholes and work backwards from there?
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2017 00:33
|
|
|
TheFluff posted:this is what I literally said: "there is a problem that has gotten worse " Fair enough. But 80% of your posting effort there goes to minimizing the problems. The shitheads framing it as a refugee question and that its somalia or something are dumb as hell, but people itt are pushing in the other direction in a very irrational way and it bothers me However, your post was very balanced in that regard so i apologize for pulling that stuff with you Cerebral Bore posted:Could you enlighten me about how any of said problems will get better by scearming about how the darkies must be thrown out? who said anything about darkies
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2017 00:35
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 14:47 |
|
|
Wild Horses posted:who said anything about darkies Who said that there was no problem whatsoever?
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2017 00:41
|
|