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80s James Hetfield posted:Yall gonna really spend 50 dollars to draft? Well I mean yeah! What if I want the option to open a foil Tarmogoyf and pass a Burst Lightning??? That could still be in right?
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Mar 2, 2017 21:42
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TheChirurgeon posted:I get all that (not out of the loop on Magic, I just don't go to tournaments these days), but then I see Banning cards is obviously bad. People who own cards that they can play, and then the next day those cards aren't playable, feel bad about it. Whether it's worse than leaving cards in the format that make people less willing to actually play the lovely format that needs cards banned from it is what needs to be decided by whoever controls the B&R list. You don't want a format that's defined by prolific bans, because then you get into a Yu-Gi-Oh situation where you need to print incredibly overpowered cards that dominate and then you need to ban those cards so your next overpowered set of cards can take over. Unfortunately, they printed a bunch of unfun cards that were also the most powerful thing you could be doing, which led to a stale, unfun three deck format, so they had to ban some stuff. That led to the next unfun, stale three deck format, and now they're faced with the choice to either unban some of the cards they banned and hope it'll open the metagame up, or ban cards from the new set of three decks, or do nothing, but if they do nothing then why the gently caress did they ban cards to break up the first locked metagame?! All of this makes it very difficult to justify playing Standard, when your (at least) $200 deck suddenly becomes unplayable. Do you then invest another $200 to keep playing the stale, boring format? What if you get into a deck that isn't great? Or, like me - what if you would play the Saheeli combo deck, but you're nearly certain it'll just get banned on March 7th because it's an absurd two-card combo that keeps the metagame from adapting against Mardu Vehicles by losing hard to Vehicles but crushing any other control decks that could potentially fight against it? Now my options are - buy into an expensive deck that I'm 100% sure deserves to be banned based on the precedent set by the previous bannings, and am 50% sure will actually get banned because of WotC's inconsistent track record, or....I could just play Modern. Or play nothing at all. ThePeavstenator posted:I just hope that the EMA surprise reprint is able to quell some of the greed that comes along with these sets. When I first started playing there was an LGS that did MM15 drafts for like $40 with the prize support being rare redrafts. At the point she opens that pack, everyone at the table congratulates her on her sweet packs that she owns, she drops and goes to have fun playing EDH. At least, that's what happened multiple times during EMA drafts at the store that isn't complete garbage.
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Mar 2, 2017 21:42
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 +  = wombo combo limited fun, FYI/FWIW
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Mar 2, 2017 21:47
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Hellsau posted:At the point she opens that pack, everyone at the table congratulates her on her sweet packs that she owns, she drops and goes to have fun playing EDH. At least, that's what happened multiple times during EMA drafts at the store that isn't complete garbage. That owner retired a few months ago thankfully but he was a grade-A rear end in a top hat. I also stopped going to that store after that because I was new and didn't feel welcomed there. We had 6 people for the draft and she was more that willing to just buy another pack. It was a very awkward because he was being really confrontational about it for no reason and she was obviously shy and trying to be as flexible as possible.
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Mar 2, 2017 21:48
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Hellsau posted:Banning cards is obviously bad. People who own cards that they can play, and then the next day those cards aren't playable, feel bad about it. Whether it's worse than leaving cards in the format that make people less willing to actually play the lovely format that needs cards banned from it is what needs to be decided by whoever controls the B&R list. You don't want a format that's defined by prolific bans, because then you get into a Yu-Gi-Oh situation where you need to print incredibly overpowered cards that dominate and then you need to ban those cards so your next overpowered set of cards can take over. Unfortunately, they printed a bunch of unfun cards that were also the most powerful thing you could be doing, which led to a stale, unfun three deck format, so they had to ban some stuff. That led to the next unfun, stale three deck format, and now they're faced with the choice to either unban some of the cards they banned and hope it'll open the metagame up, or ban cards from the new set of three decks, or do nothing, but if they do nothing then why the gently caress did they ban cards to break up the first locked metagame?! All of this makes it very difficult to justify playing Standard, when your (at least) $200 deck suddenly becomes unplayable. Do you then invest another $200 to keep playing the stale, boring format? What if you get into a deck that isn't great? Or, like me - what if you would play the Saheeli combo deck, but you're nearly certain it'll just get banned on March 7th because it's an absurd two-card combo that keeps the metagame from adapting against Mardu Vehicles by losing hard to Vehicles but crushing any other control decks that could potentially fight against it? Now my options are - buy into an expensive deck that I'm 100% sure deserves to be banned based on the precedent set by the previous bannings, and am 50% sure will actually get banned because of WotC's inconsistent track record, or....I could just play Modern. Or play nothing at all. Banning cards isn't bad. It makes the format better when they ban stuff. The fact that a card is bannable is bad. Honestly, they need to think long and hard about whether they want to own up to their mistakes or not. If they did, they'd ban Aetherworks Marvel, Heart of Kiran, Winding Constrictor and Felidar Guardian. As it is, I don't expect anything to get banned, but I don't expect Guardian to make it through Amonkhet block because I don't suspect they want that combo to be around for 2 years even if its not unequivocally the best deck because it stifles deckbuilding.
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Mar 2, 2017 21:50
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Lottery of Babylon posted:WotC are truly experts in how to do reprint sets, as evidenced by noted roaring success MM15 it got tom lapille fired. just fyi
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Mar 2, 2017 21:53
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MiddleEastBeast posted:
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Mar 2, 2017 21:57
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80s James Hetfield posted:Yall gonna really spend 50 dollars to draft? I seem to recall my LGS not going above $35 to draft past Masters sets, so no. If it stays under $40 to draft I will definitely get in on at least one draft, especially since I didn't get to draft either previous MM set.
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Mar 2, 2017 21:58
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Angry Grimace posted:Banning cards isn't bad. It makes the format better when they ban stuff. The fact that a card is bannable is bad. This was my feeling on it as well
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Mar 2, 2017 21:59
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ThePeavstenator posted:A lady opened a Goyf and foil Karn and the shop owner told her she couldn't buy a new pack (because he wanted to sit on some of the boxes he was allocated) so she left the draft at the start of pack 2 in tears. He's right though. "Expensive cards" is not a reason to replace a pack in draft. Maybe he wasn't nice about it, but that's an entirely separate issue. Hellsau posted:Or play nothing at all. This is the correct answer.
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Mar 2, 2017 21:59
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*drafts blood moon and plays it against a 5 color deck* *gets destroyed because their fixing is mostly signets*
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Mar 2, 2017 22:00
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suicidesteve posted:He's right though. "Expensive cards" is not a reason to replace a pack in draft. Maybe he wasn't nice about it, but that's an entirely separate issue.  Just trolling at this point right?
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Mar 2, 2017 22:02
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There was a store owner who threatened to ban anyone who dropped from a tournament to keep a good EMA foil/nonfoil pack because of tournament integrity or some poo poo. I recall he tried to threaten people that he'll confiscate the packs as theft of tournament materials too . The best part were all the regulars who defended the practice because it's the only store in (university) town.
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Mar 2, 2017 22:03
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I have access to $35 drafts and we're allowed to buy a new pack if one we open in the draft has a bunch of secondary value at the cost of getting one less prize pack. I am told that Channel Fireball does this at their game center as well.
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Mar 2, 2017 22:04
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Chill la Chill posted:There was a store owner who threatened to ban anyone who dropped from a tournament to keep a good EMA foil/nonfoil pack because of tournament integrity or some poo poo. I recall he tried to threaten people that he'll confiscate the packs as theft of tournament materials too . The best part were all the regulars who defended the practice because it's the only store in (university) town. Sounds like a blast. Way better than buying a box and drafting with a group of friends or something.
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Mar 2, 2017 22:05
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Chill la Chill posted:There was a store owner who threatened to ban anyone who dropped from a tournament to keep a good EMA foil/nonfoil pack because of tournament integrity or some poo poo. I recall he tried to threaten people that he'll confiscate the packs as theft of tournament materials too . The best part were all the regulars who defended the practice because it's the only store in (university) town. I hate everyone who plays this game.
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Mar 2, 2017 22:07
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Angry Grimace posted:Banning cards isn't bad. It makes the format better when they ban stuff. The fact that a card is bannable is bad. Did banning cards make the format better? They banned Smuggler's Copter, which cratered in value, and was immediately replaced by Heart of Kiran, a mythic rare that can't be Harnessed Lightninged. They banned Reflector Mage, under the justification that they were banning things from GB Delirium and Vehicles so they had to ban something from "the best performing deck" UW Flash, which was already a deck that the pros thought was bad, and now UW Flash is stone dead. They banned Emrakul, which was a completely correct decision simply because that card is pretty horrible for Magic for many reasons, so good on them. They admitted to not noticing the Saheeli combo - they would have been much better off pre-banning the Cat for power level reasons and banning Emrakul because it's miserable, letting the format shake out, and then figuring out what they needed to ban or unban. As it is, they just banned cards from the best decks "to improve and diversify the Standard environment" and it didn't improve standard unless you really love unbeatable curve outs and it didn't diversify standard any more than adding a new set to standard increases diversity.
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Mar 2, 2017 22:08
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In a vacuum, I think you could argue that Heart of Kiran makes for more interesting deck construction and gameplay decisions than Smuggler's Copter-- the difference between crew 1 and crew 3, along with the interesting alternative crew cost, isn't necessarily trivial on paper. The problem is that in practice, between Gideon and the Exemplar/Motorist/Scrounger trifecta, all that potential tension goes right back out the window.
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Mar 2, 2017 22:18
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Sickening posted:
If you quote him the rest of us who have him blocked have to see his posts.
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Mar 2, 2017 22:20
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Was this the last really good standard environment? http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=8770&f=ST (Link is to December 2014's "decks to beat" which includes 8 decks that I remember all being totally viable at the time)
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Mar 2, 2017 22:21
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PJOmega posted:If you quote him the rest of us who have him blocked have to see his posts. you have people blocked? lmao
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Mar 2, 2017 22:21
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ShaneB posted:Was this the last really good standard environment? While azban was best deck, it was the best deck by a slimmer margin than a lot of standards that followed it. Hell, the margin between it and the worst deck in that list is probably closer than 1 to 2 today. Maybe that is just nostalgia talking.
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Mar 2, 2017 22:25
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ShaneB posted:Was this the last really good standard environment? That was a cool format that was pretty fun to watch. The next one was also fine, with the two complaints being price (due to Jace, Vryn's Prodigy and fetchlands) and Siege Rhino's ubiquity, which was like Smuggler's Copter except three colors instead of zero and also being 5 dollars instead of 15.
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Mar 2, 2017 22:26
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80s James Hetfield posted:you have people blocked? lmao look man not everyone has heard about this new technology called 'scrolling past the post"
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Mar 2, 2017 22:27
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Angry Grimace posted:Banning cards isn't bad. It makes the format better when they ban stuff. The fact that a card is bannable is bad. I'd rather they unban cards before banning more, and I can't even imagine why anyone would want Marvel to be banned it isn't even in the top three decks in the format. Felidar Guardian and that entire combo is simply awful to play against, and forces decks to either blind race it and hope or play a really awful game of magic. It's not fun to have the game end immediately from turn 6 on regardless of board state even with no nonland permanents in play. I've actually won more games against it than I've lost, but that deck will only get better, and currently with Elder deep fiend it's just a complete chore to play against. I hated Twin in standard and they probably waited too long to ban it from modern, which at least gives you the correct tools to answer it properly.
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Mar 2, 2017 22:29
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Ersatz posted:Yeah, ovalchase daredevil is a lot of fun in general. I have a standard deck that uses her plus key to the city as a draw engine, and it's good times. It feels like the kind of card that you'd expect to have the "Can't block" rider, that's how disgusting it feels in the games where you have such reliable access to artifacts.
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Mar 2, 2017 22:30
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I guess that does beg the question: what are the options to take if you open the gas (foil chase + rare chase)? Offering to buy a new pack seems like a nice thing to do on the owner's part, but I don't know/doubt that my store would be open to it. At that point, what happens if I intend to drop? I suppose I could just walk out of the store with no packs at the risk of the owner not doing business with me in the future, but I would rather not damage the relationship. Could I drop and force the other 7 players to draft as though I didn't exist? A buddy of mine paid for me to draft for him during MM2015. I want to say that I opened a Foil Emmy and a Noble Hierarch in the same pack. My buddy was kind of just doing it for the money at a story that I will never go to solo, so this is actually pretty relevant.
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Mar 2, 2017 22:33
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You are always allowed to just walk out with your pack. A lot of stores will let you buy a replacement pack.
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Mar 2, 2017 22:37
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ShaneB posted:Was this the last really good standard environment? Yeah, Theros/Khans was really good. There were viable competitive decks for every play style. This event was right before Esper dragons gave the format a good control deck as well.
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Mar 2, 2017 22:38
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IMO, and I would hope in most peoples, buying into a draft means you bought 3 packs with the hope for upside with winnings. If you want to enter, take your 3 packs, and drop, that's up to you. But leaving with anything but 3 packs is essentially getting stiffed.
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Mar 2, 2017 22:38
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IDK for sure what the official rules are about who owns what. I'm pretty sure it's that you own whatever is in front of you when you decide to drop (assuming everyone passes at the same time). Either way I don't think any store is coming out ahead in a secnario where they call the cops on a customer walking out of their store with product they have a receipt for
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Mar 2, 2017 22:41
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A foil money card in a pack with another money card should always be resolvable without ruining the draft. People that disagree are grognards and should be heckled.
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Mar 2, 2017 22:42
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RembrandtQEinstein posted:Yep. I ran a kids summer program awhile back and everybody was into magic and spent a TON on it. Who do you thinks buys tons of boosters hoping to get that one card they want? I know I did that when I was 12. When I was 18 I bought 5 packs of Zendikar in the hopes of cracking the 4th Pyromancer Ascension I needed for that night's FNM. Some other guy who was playing in the FNM overheard the situation, laughed, and traded me an Ascension for the Obsidian Fireheart I just opened.
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Mar 2, 2017 22:47
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Elyv posted:You are always allowed to just walk out with your pack. A lot of stores will let you buy a replacement pack. Yeah, you can always leave with what you've got. The stores aren't allowed to sell you a replacement pack if the pack is normal, but apparently some places will anyway. They're only really supposed to if the pack is abnormal, like missing cards or no rare. Even with the God packs from Theros, my understanding was you weren't supposed to replace the pack. You either draft it or leave? ThePeavstenator posted:IDK for sure what the official rules are about who owns what. I'm pretty sure it's that you own whatever is in front of you when you decide to drop (assuming everyone passes at the same time). Either way I don't think any store is coming out ahead in a secnario where they call the cops on a customer walking out of their store with product they have a receipt for You're allowed to leave with whatever you've got in front of you. Anyone who says you're not is lying. Anyone who threatens legal action should be laughed out of the community. Sickening posted:A foil money card in a pack with another money card should always be resolvable without ruining the draft. People that disagree are grognards and should be heckled. What's the limit? Are 2 $10 cards worth getting a new pack? A $10 and 20 card? What if I open a foil Goyf but I really need a 4th Stoic Angel? Leave it it up to the store owner/judge?
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Mar 2, 2017 22:49
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suicidesteve posted:Even with the God packs from Theros, my understanding was you weren't supposed to replace the pack. You either draft it or leave? And people have house rules for drafting all the time. "Zone" drafting, looking at your previous picks, choosing where you sit instead of assigned seating, etc. Like Monopoly I really doubt most groups are doing it 100% correctly. edit: Oooh, Modern Cube list is up: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-online/modern-cube-cardlist-2017-03-02
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Mar 2, 2017 22:52
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I mean, I could certainly understand other players wanting a chance to grab the other money card in a situation where I open two. I'd probably be pissed as well if I was denied the opportunity to pay for that draft with the rules as written. I also understand that I can walk out of the store with the product that I bought. However, if I did this, I would probably not be welcome back to play by the store or the customers within. I suppose I could try and be sly and just sleight of hand the foil and the rare in the same motion since that shouldn't affect the number of cards being passed, but that's cheating if caught, and I don't know what the consequences of that are, either.
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Mar 2, 2017 22:52
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Easy rule of thumb for if you can get a replacement pack - reveal the pack that causes you to want to drop. If anyone at the draft table objects, you can't replace and have to drop. If the store has limited product and doesn't want to replace, drop. If the store wants to sell an additional pack, and the rest of the table is fine with retaining the same number of drafters and don't think someone is trying to replace the pack to get higher power level cards, then replace the pack. Losing players at the table is worse for everyone. If someone doesn't want someone else drafting solely because that player opened valuable cards, lol at them.Shadow225 posted:I mean, I could certainly understand other players wanting a chance to grab the other money card in a situation where I open two. I'd probably be pissed as well if I was denied the opportunity to pay for that draft with the rules as written. please don't cheat just to appease grognards
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Mar 2, 2017 22:53
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ShaneB posted:Was this the last really good standard environment? Big Knucks and Golgari Constellation were both my jam. Chamale posted:When I was 18 I bought 5 packs of Zendikar in the hopes of cracking the 4th Pyromancer Ascension I needed for that night's FNM. Some other guy who was playing in the FNM overheard the situation, laughed, and traded me an Ascension for the Obsidian Fireheart I just opened. You playing any standard right now, or just rad legacy brews forever?
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Mar 2, 2017 22:54
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Shadow225 posted:I suppose I could try and be sly and just sleight of hand the foil and the rare in the same motion since that shouldn't affect the number of cards being passed, but that's cheating if caught, and I don't know what the consequences of that are, either.
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Mar 2, 2017 22:55
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suicidesteve posted:Yeah, you can always leave with what you've got. The stores aren't allowed to sell you a replacement pack if the pack is normal, but apparently some places will anyway. They're only really supposed to if the pack is abnormal, like missing cards or no rare. Even with the God packs from Theros, my understanding was you weren't supposed to replace the pack. You either draft it or leave? I think using best judgement when issues comes up is better than making a hard and fast rule. I don't think a card that is worth less than the pack is going to be an issue.
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Mar 2, 2017 22:55
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