Rappaport posted:

Oh look, a German making classifications of people

Bulbo posted:

That's an american classification actually.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denazification#American_zone

Fiction posted:

they would have lined up behind Petain, no doubt.

Ligur posted:

I don't actually know what FN stands for

Cat Mattress posted:

Why stop at fascism when you can go back to absolute monarchy?

People in the so-called republican party have complained about revolutionary values, such as the abolition of privileges.

double nine posted:

pfft, scrubs, it stands for Fake News, obv.

Iggore posted:

Since they fancy themselves as a minority underdog fighting an hopeless battle against the march of history (trends in demography, immigration, globalization), I dont see why you paint them as collaborators with the powers that be.

Fados posted:

Don't want to keep making GBS threads up the thread with the fascist-or-not talk, I would just like to leave these two articles which point out some differences between the new right-wing populism with it's 20th century sousin and why it's very important to notice where they part, not to normalize them in some way but precisly how to point out they are can unwittingly be even more dangerous today.

http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2015/12/10/9886152/donald-trump-fascism

http://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/1/3/14154300/fascist-populist-trump-democracy

Note: They are mostly about Trump, but I feel the same applies in Europe.

double nine posted:

pfft, scrubs, it stands for Fake News, obv.

double nine posted:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Bourbon#Descent_from_Henry_IV

no idea how this works, but Philipe of Spain could probably stake his claim if we're going that route.

Lord of the Llamas posted:

Fillon's home is being raided by the police http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39146848

Lord of the Llamas posted:

Fillon's home is being raided by the police http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39146848

x420ReDdIT_Br0nYx posted:

It's actively ignoring huge parts of our history and the fact that modern fascist parties enjoy a form of legitimacy that allows them to use democratic tools instead of political violence as a revolutionary means to an end.

x420ReDdIT_Br0nYx posted:

The problem is those were written by Americans for the american public, and like you said they're mostly about Trump. It's actively ignoring huge parts of our history and the fact that modern fascist parties enjoy a form of legitimacy that allows them to use democratic tools instead of political violence as a revolutionary means to an end. On that front both articles seem to contradict themselves by the way, one says that it's a means to an end, and the other says that "Fascism emphasizes violence for its own sake" but to be fair both are historically true. They cite Golden Dawn as an example of a true modern fascist party, ignoring the fact that their use of fascist/nazi symbols is the same as the FN (as I've already mentioned) and that their use of openly political violence stems from them being the underdog instead of a well-established party apologized for by the media and parts of the general public. Their going full fascist could also be explained by their drive to openly confront the Greek radical left, with its very active anarchist and communist communities whereas the FN, which is very much in line politically, is active in a very milquetoast liberal democracy in which people could actually be coaxed into voting for the far-right with the right arguments at the right time, without open conflict.

In the end their whole point is that right-wing populists can't be fascist as long as they don't openly say that they are and are not in a position of power which would allow them to become totalitarian. You could argue that it's the case about parties like UKIP, which is definitely racist but only arguably fascist in the historical sense of the word, but in the case of the FN you'd have to be ignoring the 20th century and the history of WWII and post-war France to come to the conclusion that they are democratically sound and in no way a throwback to the fascist movements of the 30s. The FN is very much its own thing, it's deeply rooted in French post-war history and the way they romanticize our history and obsess over their roots is what appeals to people, however short-sighted, forgetful or openly fascist they may be. Because there ARE openly fascist and violent people in France, believe it or not. And they all happen to support the FN.

I wish I had better resources in English for you, but the Wikipedia pages about the FN and everyone involved in its inception and history are fine and should give you some much-needed context. Much better than two articles about Trump written by Americans anyway, even though Vox is okay and I understand why you would trust them so. Just keep in mind that fascism is a very European thing. Parallels between Trump and the European far-right could hypothetically be established, but they don't share the same history. But if Bannon had had a European upbringing and outlook on politics instead of an American one, he would have definitely deserved to be called a fascist. Not that he doesn't already deserve that, you can't quote Evola and say "nope, not a fascist, look I love Israel and Freedom".

In my opinion we're not witnessing the rise of far-right populism but the normalization of an updated European fascism, so we disagree on that point. It's certainly the case in France, in America it's more about the essence of fascism than its superficial characteristics. In Europe they certainly kept the decorum though, ergo why we're not afraid to use the word and we can't believe it when people argue that fascism isn't represented anymore in our respective political spectra. "What is the essence of fascism?" and "How can we stop it?" are much more interesting questions than "Is x a fascist?" even though I spent hours posting in this thread trying to prove x are indeed fascist, I really hope we can move the discussion towards the really interesting points by admitting that yes, fascism is still a thing that's still as dangerous as it's always been and that the word has kept its edge, and its definition.

Kassad posted:

That's because you just described Pétain and his ilk too.

Fados posted:

My questions to you is, do you feel that, given France's more specific conditions in relation to fascism, that anti-fascist violence, even against undercover fascists, is beneficial when it comes to the stance of the so called 'silent majority'?

Fados posted:

Okay dude, I will for a moment ignore my kneejerk gut feeling that leftists love to call poo poo fascist when they feel lazy about thinking when it relates to new right-wing variants and accept that FN and France might have different historical conditions where it indeed might be more like fascism than other anti-immigrant and islamophobic movements. I will take you up on your offer to move right along and start by quoting Benjamin here who says that: "behind every fascism there is a failed left revolution". What this means is that the sudden growth of FN (and I did check the statistics, Marie has had much greater success in all electoral fields that her father), is directly correlated to failure of Holland in homology with the rise of Trump after 8 years of failed promises from Obama (with I'd admit a single notable exception in healthcare).

Fados posted:

My questions to you is, do you feel that, given France's more specific conditions in relation to fascism, that anti-fascist violence, even against undercover fascists, is beneficial when it comes to the stance of the so called 'silent majority'?

Doctor Malaver posted:

Thanks for the effort post, it was an interesting read.

unpacked robinhood posted:

quote:

Greece’s €86 billion bailout package could soon become even more complicated, after the country’s government decided to seek an unknown amount of “financial assistance” from the World Bank, according to people familiar with the situation.
If accepted, the Greek request would push the country further into debt at a time when the government continues to battle over the terms and conditions of its latest bailout package. Negotiations resumed this week in Athens between the government and its eurozone creditors, the European Commission, International Monetary Fund, and European Stability Mechanism.
A long-running disagreement between the Europeans and the IMF on debt relief and austerity have raised the possibility that the Washington-based financial organization may walk away from the current bailout program.
A failure to complete the so-called “second review” of the package could prompt European creditors to withhold additional rescue funds from the Greek government, which faces major debt repayment deadlines in the coming months. A Greek default in turn could reignite the debate about whether the country should be kicked out of the eurozone.
Greece’s current creditors “are not too happy about” the fresh request for funds, an EU official said Thursday.
Nonetheless, Greece’s heavily indebted government has decided to ask for more loans, this time from the World Bank, another Washington-based organization which specializes in providing funds to impoverished countries and emerging economies.
“The government of Greece has asked the World Bank to provide technical and financial assistance to address pressing challenges including: long-term unemployment, economic competitiveness and growth and social protection,” a spokesperson from the World Bank said. “In accordance with World Bank procedures, any final decision on providing loans would be subject to approval by the bank’s board of executive directors.”
The World Bank declined to specify how much money Greece requested.
“Preliminary talks have taken place indeed with [the World Bank] but we cannot confirm official application,” a government official in Athens said.

Iggore posted:

I think the root cause is demographic change and all its derivative issues, which are perceived, rightly or wrongly, as being ignored or improperly addressed by rulings mainstream parties. It is perceived as being inflicted instead of desired or, at the very least, improperly managed. Hence why the majority white population is turning to far-right populism.

Samuel Huntington said that, regarding the relative demographic decline of western Whites, that the odds of White people reacting like the Serbs is close to zero. But the odds of Westerners not reacting at all was also zero. Hence, they elected Trump. The only thing preventing the election of the FN in France is the two-round electoral system. The Alternative for Germany is on the rise, as other like-minded parties in almost every other European countries.

quote:

Coupled with the radical leftist discourse over identity, its tearing down of gender norms and racial privileges, and the radical left's knee-jerk reaction against anything that's not left enough, those that are disillusioned within the majority don't really know where to turn to.

Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:

It's a very simplistic explanation for what's going on and there are a lot of examples that contradict it. For example, countries like Poland that don't have any significant immigration or existing immigration population, have had some of the hardest authoritarian-xenophobic reactions on the continent. Germany, on the other hand, a country that has been below replacement rate since the 60s and has been taking in multiple multi-million people immigration waves over the decades, has had one of the weakest right-wing shifts.


Except for the inconvenient truth that the right shift of social democratic parties all across Europe has been driven by the electorate. Real social democratic parties still exist in most of European countries, but their electoral results are, for the most part, extremely poor.

As has been pointed out itt, the issue of minority rights is completely inconsequential to economic issues and a political party can have more than one of these issues in their program. The supposed focus on "identity politics" has been completely overblown by right-wing propaganda for their own purposes.

I'm not saying that demographics have no effect at all, but I think there are much more important factors at play. Like the fact that the right wing has been creating their own media echo chambers and has been blasting these chambers with a completely manufactured reality for the last decade or so. Democratic/pluralistic mentality is doing much better in countries where serious public discourse still exists, immigrants or not. In countries where public discourse turned into incoherent grunting and howling, like in the US or Poland, its decline is much more severe.

Hambilderberglar posted:

Without wanting to get all I'm not sure if it's productive to compare the relative electoral success, or lack thereof, of SocDem parties in Poland to those in western Europe. To my admittedly western European sensibilities their relationship with "left of center" is very coloured by their experiences under the yoke of Moscow for a bigly chunk of the 20th century, and the relative decline of the left of center will always be more exaggerated if you're coming out of a half century of communism and suddenly you get to experiment with things like capitalism and income inequality.

Additionally, if what you say is correct, and the right shift of the Social Democratic parties of Europe was driven by the electorate. How would that then translate to *lower* electoral gains for them? If the base sees them shift rightward and that's something that they want, why punish the party? I don't see that as making much sense. Was there some terminal decline in people who hold social democrat convictions that (attempting to) represent these voters is no longer politically feasible?

His Divine Shadow posted:

Hey Greece just default already, let it happen.

LemonDrizzle posted:

Syriza to World Bank: "Hello, friends! Can we interest you in a glorious opportunity to stick your dicks in an active blender?"

Lord of the Llamas posted:

At this rate I expect Fillon to drop out before his rally on Sunday. Will be interesting to see the updated list of sponsorships today.