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Maybe his sin is accidentally stumbling onto the solution of the epitaph, forgetting to tell any of the Ushiromiya clan, and leaving. Hence, no one would have to suffer under Kinzo any longer, and Battler would be the new head. But because he forgot to take the successorship with him (meaning he forgot where the gold was), everyone's back for this particular family meeting to figure out the new head, which involves everyone dying (a lot). I think this vibes up with either Shannon and/or Kanon being the person(s) who Battler told about the gold, but since they weren't technically part of the family or something, they couldn't do anything about it. And so they became murders/"Beatrice"? I dunno. It's all still pretty first-draft-y in my head.
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Mar 4, 2017 00:38
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bman in 2288 posted:Maybe his sin is accidentally stumbling onto the solution of the epitaph, forgetting to tell any of the Ushiromiya clan, and leaving. Hence, no one would have to suffer under Kinzo any longer, and Battler would be the new head. ProfessorProf posted:
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Mar 4, 2017 01:45
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lotus circle posted:Not to ruin your train of thought, but You ruined my train of thought. But then it begs the question of how everyone else was trying to find the treasure back when the parents were kids. Or am I mixing up events? bman in 2288 fucked around with this message at 01:59 on Mar 4, 2017 |
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Mar 4, 2017 01:56
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Battler didn't just stop coming to family reunions, he removed himself from the family registry. What is it with the freak-rear end names Kinzo wanted everyone to have?
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Mar 4, 2017 02:07
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Doc Hawkins posted:Battler didn't just stop coming to family reunions, he removed himself from the family registry. What is it with the freak-rear end names Kinzo wanted everyone to have? It appears they more or less did it on their own. All of the kids seem to be western fans as they were raised that way. Rosa even said she named Maria on her own and went against Kinzo's wishes when she named her that as he did not want her to have that name.
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Mar 4, 2017 02:11
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CottonWolf posted:E2: resurgam40, I based on what RedMagus' said, I'm more on board with your Kanon theory, but I've still got nothing as to why he'd do it. What's his motivation? That's the stumbling block I hit here. If he wanted Battler to remember something, why not just talk to him. Why kill everyone? Well, that's a thing to think about, because I don't know... I can only guess from the hearsay going on in this thread... and truth be told, I'm resonating a lot with what TCL says again- just with the other servant.  This bit in particular sticks out that she indicated:Tender Child Loins posted:If Beatrice is a split personality of Sayo/Shannon, I believe the answer is in episode 3. Because it put me in mind of a possibility... what if these things didn't actually happen to Shannon? Bear with me here: what if, by her volition or at Kanon's request, Shannon is throwing out things that happened to Kanon (or whatever his name was at the time) in an attempt to get him to jog his memory about hanging out with Kanon? What if the "sin" is writing Kanon out of his memoiries and ascribing them to Shannon or the other cousins? Because TCL: not to knock to knock you or your theories, but... Battler doesn't seem to have forgotten anything with Shannon, and Shannon, for her part, doesn't seem all that into Battler or the idea of being "his." You keep suggesting that the relationship she has with George is somehow fake or not her idea, but I really don't see how that could be the case as things are presented. Yeah, she has some multilayered lines at times, but not when her and George are together alone- they're both astonishingly straightforward and revoltingly sweet then. Worth noting, however, is that Battler IS with the group when Shannon gets all mystic and memory focused... is it really so impossible to think that Shannon is trying to get Battler to remember Kanon, instead of trying to signal to Battler that she's "trapped in an an abusive relationship, please help", or whatever? Another problem with the Shannontrice theory: if this is Shannon's dastardly plot to kill her oppressors... why does she end up dead every time? In the first two episodes, she is dead and her body confirmed by Battler, and in the third, she dies twice... and although her body is not confirmed by Battler there, it's never found by anyone else either. I'll allow that she might be suicidally motivated and want to kill herself when everything's done, but her death always seems to come before one of her prime targets bites it: in the first Ep, for example, she appears to be dead before Eva, who actually insulted her and blocked her marriage, and in the second, she dies before someone actually gets Rosa. So is a conspiracy carrying out her will? What's going on there. Which actually puts me in mind of another point: Maria. A common element of Beatrice that we both have noticed is Beatrice's concern for Maria and genuine outrage at her abuse- even if the way she goes about it feeds Maria's own delusions and vindictiveness. So... where's the outrage on Shannon's part? As I recall, she left the cousins before the "rose episode" in EP1, and as I recall, she's never been around when any other abuse is being performed or discussed (except, of course, her own by Natsuhi and Eva), so any theory on how she would be "motivated" by Maria's awful home-life is pretty much conjecture. But you know who did see Maria being smacked around, obviously isn't a fan, and is so far the only other person on the Island besides Battler who says that hitting a child is a bad thing to do? ProfessorProf posted:
And isn't it something that when "Beatrice" shows up in the story shortly after, the first thing she does is perform a magic trick to "restore" the stomped candy, which I pointed out at the time could have been done by sleight of hand instead of magic. And ain't it coincidental that it was in the same place that Kanon was nearby that she showed up first at all, near the rose garden (and presumably, a garden shed or gazebo, where it is possible to store clothes and makeup for a quick change)? And- reviewing the goings on of the second episode's first day- isn't it awfully passing strange that the only one to see, hear, or speak to Kanon after "Beatrice" shows up is Shannon? By herself, in a corridor? After a big long section in which it was demonstrated that the two shared a vision and a relationship with the Beatrice spirit, and in a series in which conversations between two people can't be counted on to be real, and sometimes not even when more than two people are involved?
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Mar 4, 2017 04:24
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"...Kihi... kihihihihihihihihihi... I'm fine. Kihihihihi."
"She's a horrible person. I can't believe that was a mother..."
"...I can't do anything except dust it off... Sorry."
"...Thank you. A human can't do anything except dust it off, but a witch can repair it to how it was. It would be easy for Beatrice. Kihihihihihi."
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It occurs to me that any illegitimate biological child of an Uroshimiya might get pretty mad at someone else (perhaps someone roughly their age?) impulsively giving up identity and privilege they've been told will be forever beyond their reach. Is throwing away something other people would kill for a sin? E: When did Real Dead Beatrice die again? I've been thinking she was the secret love-child, but maybe she had one instead, delivered by Nanjo, raised in part by Kumasawa. Or (ugh) she could both be and have had one. Doc Hawkins fucked around with this message at 07:22 on Mar 4, 2017 |
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Mar 4, 2017 07:19
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Doc Hawkins posted:E: When did Real Dead Beatrice die again? I've been thinking she was the secret love-child, but maybe she had one instead, delivered by Nanjo, raised in part by Kumasawa. Or (ugh) she could both be and have had one. I think it was 19 years before the last conference, since that scene between Kinzo and Beatrice at Kuwadorian took place in 1967. Any child born between them would be 19, at the youngest. Shannon is 16... so that trips me up here. And Kanon is supposed to be younger than her, though it's unclear by how much.
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Mar 4, 2017 08:54
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Well, neither of them are impersonating Kinzo; assuming he died, there has to be a real "19th" person, numbers of personalities aside.
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Mar 4, 2017 09:15
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 Since the time she had returned, her expression hadn't changed in the slightest... However, when she saw the fallen empty wine bottles and scattered cheese plates, her brow furrowed, and she looked a bit displeased. And when she whispered 'disappear', in that instant, the room was cleaned up in a flash, as though nothing had happened. The reception chairs were neatly arranged, and there was no wine or cheese. There were no stains or scattered trash either. ...To the contrary, even the air had frozen over, and, enough to make one doubt whether a large number of noisy people really had been in this room until a short while ago, the study had returned to silence. ...In that silent, frigid study where even the air had frozen, Beatrice stood still... Then, she called, muttering.    "Do I seem strange? My apologies." "...Even though you were drinking so happily with that drat geezer, you suddenly burned him up, and your demoness friend is a glass sculpture. When you told the demon butler and your teacher to leave, they disappeared right away at your words. Just how fickle and selfish are you?" "Battler, I'm done." "Done with what?" BGM: Mother  "Huh? That's... well... you were the one who started this game." "Heh, if you've had enough, that's great for me. So basically, you're giving up?" "I am not giving up. I am simply ending it. No, I won't even end it. I am just abandoning this game for all eternity." "Doesn't that mean you're giving up? Nah, the words 'got bored of it and threw it away' fit you perfectly." "That is correct. I grew bored of it... and am throwing it away." "I don't care what happens next. It can remain abandoned and gather dust as much as you like." "...What's going on with you? You've been kinda hard to deal with since a short while ago. Are these still the aftereffects of that incomprehensible test from earlier? If you've got a grudge, all you have to do is say so clearly. You said in red that it has nothing to do with you, but that's gotta be a play on words, right? It's written all over your face. You have a grudge against me." "How many times will I have to say I have no grudge against you before you'll understand? At the time you committed your sin, I did not exist."As Beato spoke with an offended expression, her face twisted to look even more displeased. Fickle. Inconsistent. Moody. Temperamental. Selfish and simple-minded and cruel. But even so, she hadn't shown an expression as strange as this even once until now... "...Well, you were the one who provoked me into this game. I'm a bit let down that it wasn't resolved, but feel free to invite me again if you feel like it." "But when that happens, allow me to politely refuse, okay? Heheheh."He intentionally spoke in a mocking tone, but Beato showed no reaction. Battler hung his head and clicked his tongue... "We've circled around October 4 and 5 over and over again, but I've finally had just about enough of this role. This way, the boat will come tomorrow." "...That's right, and then the seagulls will return to the harbor. I'll finally be able to hear Rokkenjima's signature nya-nya- cries. After all, maybe because of the weather, they weren't there at all when I came to the island. When the seagulls cry, everything will end, I guess. All done, the end. What a relief." "Hmm? What'd you say?" "...I said that nothing would end. With this, everything will be abandoned. The game will be forgotten, and the pieces on the board will be abandoned as they lay. There will be no advancing or returning, no taking and being taken. No victory, no defeat, not even a tie. Just abandoned." "...Doesn't that mean it's over?" "Wrong. On my turn, the game will stop for all eternity. Your turn will not come. So there will be no victory nor defeat nor a tie." "...In the past, I couldn't let you do that. After all, one of my goals was winning against you. However, I've lost interest. So there is no longer any point in making moves any longer." "...What do you mean... by my turn not coming...?"I'd thought that Beato getting tired of the game meant I'd be released...and that I'd be able to escape Rokkenjima. But for some reason, Beato's repeated words... about the difference between abandoning the game and settling it... caught my attention... Just what is it she's been saying, and why the bad mood...? At that time, I suddenly heard a voice from behind me. When I turned around, there was someone I thought I might, or might not, remember from somewhere... A mysterious girl, with no light in her eyes, was standing there.  BGM: Melody (instrumental)  Suddenly, in a different place... was a girl wearing a bright pink dress. I had a feeling I'd met her somewhere too, but I couldn't remember. More important was the meaning of her words. If the game is abandoned, then... huh?  "...That's right. A match won't be resolved unless enemies and allies meet. It would mean that you'd never be able to win and escape from this world for all eternity." "What it comes down to, I guess, is something like taking the key to the cage that you're locked in, fastening it to the collar of a pigeon or something, and letting it fly." "...This isn't funny, Beato. We didn't come this far to watch such a boring game. Calling it a day like this is no joke." "...I agree with Lambda. I came here to make Battler win and to make you writhe in defeat. I still haven't achieved that goal. I won't stand for you abandoning the game at a time like this and running away." "I acknowledge that it would mean the curtain call for a game that disappoints you Ladies. However, I, the host of this tea party, am fickle. Once it's lost its fun, I know no way of entertaining. I believe that's been my witch-like way of doing things from the very beginning. There are no problems, yes...?" "...Certainly. I won't go against your creed." "I won't accept it... Quit fooling around, how much do you think I've supported you...? You think I'd be okay with that after all this preparation? Don't mess with me...!!" "I am saying that I have tired of it. Nothing more, nothing less." "That's not gonna fly... We'll have you continue this game. You wanna win against Battler, right?" "You wanna win and make him surrender, right?! You're almost there, aren't you?! Am I right?!" "...D-Don't ask me that. But... I have an opinion too. Let me say it." "...What?" "This is a fight you picked. I'm prepared to settle this once and for all. I've come close to surrendering many times, but I've never had any intention of escaping partway through, leaving the match undecided. Since I'm here, showing the will to fight, you'd better not run away, Beatrice." Suddenly, even Gretel was there. And everyone was calling Beato irresponsible. "Hoh. It seems I'm mostly being called irresponsible because Battler will, as my opponent, be stuck." "...In that case, Battler, will you step down from being an opponent, as I shall? That way, I will have done nothing worthy of criticism." "If I step down, will I be able to leave Rokkenjima...?" "There's no chance you'll be able to leave. Just be covered in dust and let it pile up on your shoulders." "...Quit fooling around. What an irresponsible person. You've killed such a large number of people. On top of that, using a witch's power, you've done it over and over. Killing in gruesome ways! I definitely won't let you escape without taking responsibility...!" "ResponsibilityHoh, what is it I should do to take this so-called responsibility?" "Fight until a resolution is reached. Battler will sit in the chair across from you, never giving up and fighting until he beats you. So you too, fight until you're defeated. If you don't like that, try and defeat Battler...!!" "I won't forgive you... if you leave everything unresolved and abandon Battler in this chair, locking him up and never letting him return... I won't forgive you...!!" "...Gretel."To be perfectly honest, I didn't really understand from what standpoint Gretel was trying to save me. But in her words, I could feel a strong determination to save me from this insane game world no matter what. So, I responded in kind.  "..." "I am here. Across from you, in the seat of your rival. Get it? As long as I continue to sit here, I won't allow you to escape. So don't escape. Fight." "Isn't this a fight you started? You did all that crap over and over, making a complete mess of things! How could I let you end it because you're tired, after all this time?!! I am your opponent!! As long as I'm here, I won't let you escape!!" "Are you listening, you irresponsible witch?! Try saying somethiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing!!!"After I yelled at her, Beato went silent for a while. Whether my words had reached her, or whether she was thinking about something completely different, I couldn't tell. But for a while, she was silent, gazing at me with an expression I could read no emotion from, and when she realized that I'd noticed, she averted her gaze. Then, she turned her back to me... and said this... "So, since Battler will not quit as my opponent, the Ladies are saying that my abandonment of this game will not be acknowledged." BGM: None  "...Qualified?" "...Probably has something to do with that test or whatever just now." "...What are you planning to do...?" "...D-Don't tell me you're..." "I will now determine whether or not you are qualified to be my opponent." "...Ready, Battler? If those qualifications are acknowledged, I will stay in my seat and continue the game. And I shall promise to fight for all eternity until the outcome is decided." "Heh! I was ready for that from the beginning." "...However, if you are not qualified, you must disappear. If the opponent disappears, there is no game. I can leave this place openly. Are the Ladies satisfied? Interruptions will not be necessary." "...Go ahead, do as you like." "...B-Battler... You... make sure you answer well..." "The very reason I'm here is because I'm qualified, right? Heh, there's nothing to be scared of...!" "...Y-You couldn't be..."Gretel grew suddenly pale. I'd thought her to be the calm, collected type, so that expression surprised me.  "Y-You're telling me to repeat something?" "Heheh, drat you, stealing my signature move. But can I use the red truth too? How...?" "...I-If you wish for it to be that way, you can do it. It's easy." BGM: Miragecoordinator "Stop it!! I know what you're after...!! But stop that! He's...!!"When Gretel yelled, Beato glared at her. Then, her form was wiped away in an instant. "Shut up. Leave your seat for a while. You too, Ladies. If you interfere, I will not hold back." "...We won't get in the way. Go ahead, do as you like." "B-Bern, this is bad!! She's trying to erase Battler!!" "...What's that...? What's... she planning...?" "Well then, I shall question your qualifications... Interesting. Attack and defense are reversed from a normal game. This is a very precious experience, coming at the very, very end." "...Ready? Listen carefully. I will speak with the red first." "...I know that. So what?" "Repetition requested. 'Ushiromiya Battler's mother is Ushiromiya Asumu'." "What?! Why's Mom's name popping up all of a sudden...?" "I do not require chatter. Just repeat it in red."Beato urged me with the same indifferent tone... But I don't have a clue what she's trying to do. I have absolutely nothing to feel guilty for that would trouble me if thrown in my face, and there's nothing that I'm hiding. There's nothing that could trouble me by demanding that I repeat it. ...So, why do something like this...?  "  "...The red sure is convenient. No need to bother myself with bringing a copy of the family register." "Idle chatter is unnecessary. Let's continue. 'Your name is Ushiromiya Battler'." "...Sure. My name is Ushiromiya Battler." "It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that Ushiromiya Battler was born." "It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that Ushiromiya Battler was born." "It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that you were born." At that time, my throat suddenly closed... I was rapidly assaulted with a choking suffocation. ...Wh-What's going on...? O-One more time... "It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that I was born... drat, it was from Ushiromiya Asumu that I was born..." "...Wh-What the hell? Even though I was doing it so easily a second ago, I suddenly stopped being able to get the red to work...?!" "...Do you refuse to repeat it?" "I'm not refusing anything...!! It's not working for some reason...!!" "It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that I was born...!! Why?! Dammit, why can't I use the red?! What the hell?!?!" "...Nngg..." "..."My Mom is Ushiromiya Asumu, right?! Why can't I say that fact in red?! What's going on...?! Th-This is...gghh-!! "If you try to forcefully speak red that cannot be spoken, you choke. There is no need to strain yourself. Allow me to use the aforementioned fact to press you in blue." "...Do you remember? The blue is used to proclaim a theory for the opponent to deny. They are then burdened with the responsibility of denying that in red, and if they do not, it becomes your victory. Then let us begin."    "...D-Deny something about that in red... Quickly!!" "S-Sure... I- I am Ushiromiya Battler...! Because I can say that in red, I should be your opponent!!" "It may be a fact that you have the name Ushiromiya Battler." "However, people's names are not exclusive. There is a possibility that multiple humans have the name Ushiromiya Battler." "In short, this is what it means. You are a different person with the same first and last names as Ushiromiya Asumu's son, Ushiromiya Battler." "...Wh-What'd you say...?!! Don't be so stupiiiiiiiiid!! I'm Mom's child!! Ushiromiya Asumu's child!!"  "drat!! Why?! Why can't I say that I was born from my Mom?! How could something so stupid be true?" ...Wha... "You're... kidding... me..." "Who are you? What person calling themselves Ushiromiya Battler?" "W-Wait a second... I am... Ushiromiya Battler... It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that I was born, and I'm Dad and Mom's son...!" "No. There is no way that you're my opponent, Ushiromiya Battler. With this as proof." "Proof, you say?!" "...Uh, th-that's..." "No, the true Ushiromiya Battler would not have committed a sin. But a sin did occur in the end, that span of six years became a blank space, and a man who knew nothing of that time took on the name Ushiromiya Battler and appeared on Rokkenjima. That truth... goes like this."Six years ago, my opponent, the true Ushiromiya Battler, was already dead. You were part of a plot by Rudolf having something to do with distribution of the inheritance, a body double set up in Ushiromiya Battler's place. "...H-How could something that stupid be true...? That's... so... ridiculous..." "...B-Battler...! Get ahold of yourself...!!" "...Well, if he can't counter back, there's nothing more to do. Battler did not possess that qualification. That's how it is." "A-Are you okay with that, Bern?! If you accept that, you'll lose too, right?!" "Won't you win? ...Why are you taking Battler's side...?" "...N-Nnnn..." "What a shame, Battler. What a real shame that you didn't have the qualifications to be Beatrice's opponent. I was careless myself, betting on an unqualified piece. It's my utter defeat, Beatrice." "...There is no victory or defeat. The opponent will simply disappear. Or perhaps I should say that he was never there to begin with." "But then, who... am I...? Am I... not Dad and Mom's kid...?! Who am I...? What am I...? If I'm not Mom's kid, then what, are you saying I'm a kid they picked up somewhere, like a stray cat?!" "If that is the case, it would mean that you do not share Kinzo's blood. Either way, you are not qualified to compete in this game." "...You're kidding me, you're kidding me..." "Enough. From the very beginning, I was faintly aware of the possibility that you weren't Ushiromiya Battler. So, I had to question you. I had to ask about something the real Battler would have known." "...What a shame. I even bet on the one-in-a-quadrillion chance of a miracle... that you might really be Ushiromiya Battler. But it seems you really are a different person with the same first and last names." "...Nnng, nnnnn..." No, maybe it was the other way around. The whole world was clouded in darkness, leaving only Battler... Battler was down on all fours, hanging his head and repeatedly questioning himself. However, he was not given an answer... In the world stained with darkness, Beato spoke something and Lambdadelta ran up to him, yelling something very quickly, but it already seemed very far away, and it didn't reach Battler's ears...  BGM: None "Battleeeeeeeeeeeeer, aahhh..." "Now my opponent has disappeared. Well then, if you'll excuse me. And Ladies, you should get ready for your journey. No more festivities have been prepared for in my territory. It was good seeing you. Goodbye."Without saying anything more, she clouded her own form in darkness as well... and disappeared... "...A-Are you... okay with this?! Battler... d-disappeared, right?! I know how much you hate losing. Are you really okay with this?!" "...Weren't you betting on my defeat? Good for you then. Congratulations, Lambda. Let's meet again in some other world, okay?" "Well, this is a world of endless Fragments. The chances of us having some connection again somewhere are probably less than one in a quadrillion. Anyway, it was fun. Bye-bye." "Ah, wait up, Bern...!!!"Chasing after Bernkastel, who had disappeared first, Lambdadelta disappeared as well...  It returned to silence, almost as though no one had been there from the outset. No one was here in the first place. The silent study spoke that wordlessly, and the sound of the wind and rain began to fill the room bit by bit... In a world where everything had sunk into darkness, Beato questioned herself.  BGM: Melting Away  "...Seems so. I also... thought that with Ange." "The witches' alliance is you and I. It started with those two. Including other people was our first mistake..." "...It's just so fun. We wanted to add someone close to us into that circle. And we wished that the witches' alliance would get really large, that everyone would be able to use fun magic together, and that we'd all be happy." "However, only you and I were able to understand magic after all." "We are... the only two witches in this world, who were brought together by a miracle. And now, as long as I have Beato, I don't need anyone else." "...Me too. As long as you are here, I don't need anyone else anymore." "In the very first moment that Mariage Sorcière was formed, it was already complete." "...That is... so. That is truly so..." What did I want to do when I started this game? I can't really remember even that. No, I may remember, but that's a feeling I now wish to throw away to the far side of oblivion. "...It's okay. Why not forget everything? Let's have a Mariage Sorcière for just the two of us. ...We'll acknowledge each other. And no one will hurt us. So we won't be hurt. We won't cry."  
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Mar 4, 2017 13:59
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The profiles page has been updated.
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Mar 4, 2017 14:00
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Battler's profile... It's gone. ... Holy poo poo. ... Oh my god. ... If Battler isn't Battler...who would know who he really is, among the cast? Rudolph, certainly... Krauss, possibly. Kinzo? Up in the air... But the point is, all of them are dead by the end, so they can't be the culprit. So who else would know, on this whole island? The one whose name he stole. ProfessorProf posted:https://lpix.org/2562824/bio-kanon-1.png Battler's sin was not going away. It was coming back.
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Mar 4, 2017 15:00
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"...Kanon-kun. If you don't mind, tell me... What is your real name?"
"...I forgot. My name doesn't matter anymore."
"...I told you to stop that! You aren't furniture, you're human, right?!"
"...You know, Kanon-kun, ...you aren't, furniture anymore..."
"..."
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poo poo. Did Kanon and Battler swap places all those years ago? I don't know what to think anymore, but drat game, nicely played. You stole our one pillar from us that we had been depending on.
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Mar 4, 2017 15:57
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Well gently caress. So, not-Battler killed Jessica in the last game? How exclusive is the red? If there are multiple Ushiromiya Battler's on the island, can the red statement "Ushiromiya Battler is not the culprit or an accomplice" be simultaneously true and false depending on which referent you apply it to? If not, then it doesn't explain anything, because even if Battler's not Battler, we know he is Battler. I'm also somewhat annoyed he didn't attempt to say "Ushiromiya Kinzo is my grandfather". Because if we're accepting the existence of multiple people called Battler, there's no particular reason that they can't both be Kinzo's grandchildren. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Mar 4, 2017 |
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Mar 4, 2017 16:01
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Asumu wasn't Kinzo's child; Rudolf is. THE ANSWER IS PATRIARCHY
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Mar 4, 2017 16:18
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Tender Child Loins posted:Asumu wasn't Kinzo's child; Rudolf is. THE ANSWER IS PATRIARCHY This, but unironically. If Rudolf was sleeping around, and he had another son. That son could be both Ushiromiya Battler and Kinzo's grandson without being Asumu's son. Under that theory it becomes a bit twisted naming both of your children the same thing. E: Also worth noting, whatever's going on with "Battler", Ange already knew about it. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Mar 4, 2017 |
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Mar 4, 2017 16:22
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So, was the sin "abandoning the Ushiromiya and becoming furniture" or something? Do we know enough to figure out where the real Battler is? And the "uuuuuuu" at the end by Beato is incredibly telling. Hold on, Ange knew about Beato's plan. Did that mean she knows something that we don't? Is Battler still Rudolf's son? So many questions I have, yet they may not get answered.
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Mar 4, 2017 16:29
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bman in 2288 posted:Hold on, Ange knew about Beato's plan. Did that mean she knows something that we don't? Is Battler still Rudolf's son? So many questions I have, yet they may not get answered. If I had to speculate wildly, "Battler" is Kyrie's son with Rudolf, who replaced Battler, who was Asumu's son with Rudolf, who died. Which explains why Kyrie can't stand to look at Battler not just because he reminds her of Asumu, but because he thinks Asumu was his mother. Asumu took everything from her twice. I can think of literally no evidence for this beyond this update, but I'm relatively happy with it as a temporary theory. Though if that were the case, I have no theory as to why Kyrie would agree to give him up.
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Mar 4, 2017 16:33
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Edit: double post.
bman in 2288 fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Mar 4, 2017 |
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Mar 4, 2017 17:08
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CottonWolf posted:Though if that were the case, I have no theory as to why Kyrie would agree to give him up. Following this train of thought, considering both women were really dedicated to Rudolf, I'd figure that convincing her was not as difficult as it should have been.
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Mar 4, 2017 17:10
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I don't know if I can speculate as to what happened here, but there was something going on with Battler's birth and I don't know if Kyrie was in on it. Or this is a total red herring and he's a Fukuin kid that is somehow related to the Ushiromiyas in another way.ProfessorProf posted:
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Mar 4, 2017 17:28
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"Then, Asumu-san gave birth to Battler-kun... But I had a miscarriage. I think about it, sometimes. What if Asumu-san had had the miscarriage... and I had been the one to give birth? Would Rudolf-san have broken off his engagement and married me? But I couldn't give birth to my child. So until Asumu-san died, and until I got pregnant with Ange, I cursed Asumu-san and was jealous."
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Tender Child Loins posted:I don't know if I can speculate as to what happened here, but there was something going on with Battler's birth and I don't know if Kyrie was in on it. Or this is a total red herring and he's a Fukuin kid that is somehow related to the Ushiromiyas in another way. I'd actually forgotten about that. The way I was remembering it, only Asumu got pregnant. But yeah, that potentially gives more meaning to both the PIN and Battler's identity. Do we know how Asumu died? If this were an Agatha Christie novel, she'd definitely have been murdered either by Kyrie or Rudolf, so that they could be together.
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Mar 4, 2017 17:45
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CottonWolf posted:If I had to speculate wildly, "Battler" is Kyrie's son with Rudolf, who replaced Battler, who was Asumu's son with Rudolf, who died. Which explains why Kyrie can't stand to look at Battler not just because he reminds her of Asumu, but because he thinks Asumu was his mother. Asumu took everything from her twice. I can think of literally no evidence for this beyond this update, but I'm relatively happy with it as a temporary theory. If this is the solution. It's possible Kyrie did not know. Ruldolf swapping the child so he could keep eating both cakes.
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Mar 4, 2017 17:49
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CottonWolf posted:I'd actually forgotten about that. The way I was remembering it, only Asumu got pregnant. But yeah, that potentially gives more meaning to both the PIN and Battler's identity. Do we know how Asumu died? If this were an Agatha Christie novel, she'd definitely have been murdered either by Kyrie or Rudolf, so that they could be together. Sickness I think. I don't feel like going through the earlier updates to check. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Mar 4, 2017 |
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Mar 4, 2017 17:51
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MonsterEnvy posted:If this is the solution. It's possible Kyrie did not know. Ruldolf swapping the child so he could keep eating both cakes. That would be so unbelievably hosed up that, if it were the case, Rudolf might get to take the worst sibling crown from Rosa in one fell swoop. We know Kyrie must have miscarried quite late, considering that she already had a due date, so it's certainly possible. Asumu has the stillbirth, Kyrie's baby is given to her, and Kyrie's told her child's stillborn. Is a stillbirth technically a type of miscarriage? Or is that something different? E: Actually, according to the NHS a miscarriage is only during the first 23 weeks, so unless it's a poor translation, that's that theory scuppered. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Mar 4, 2017 |
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Mar 4, 2017 17:54
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Miscarriage was a mistranslation. Kyrie's child died in a stillbirth.
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Mar 4, 2017 18:02
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drat it, Battler! You could at least read a little bit of Sagan or Socrates. There are so many petty quibbles and opportunities for sophistry when the opponent brings "sin" into the question. We're all made of starstuff, and humans are all super-related anyways, so family ties are ultimately meaningless. Boom, counterargument. If Beato wants to make sin an objective thing, you could have forced her to actually articulate her moral code.
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Mar 4, 2017 18:04
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CottonWolf posted:If I had to speculate wildly, "Battler" is Kyrie's son with Rudolf, who replaced Battler, who was Asumu's son with Rudolf, who died. Which explains why Kyrie can't stand to look at Battler not just because he reminds her of Asumu, but because he thinks Asumu was his mother. Asumu took everything from her twice. I can think of literally no evidence for this beyond this update, but I'm relatively happy with it as a temporary theory. I am very sure this is it. It just feels right, thematically; Battler has to be someone else's kid, and being Kyrie's makes the most sense as a terrible gut punch. Which means that Battler spent six years being mad at his dad for getting back together with his birth mom, instead of the reasons he ACTUALLY should have been mad at him.
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Mar 4, 2017 18:10
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That also explains why Ange and Battler look so similar.
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Mar 4, 2017 18:22
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CottonWolf posted:I'm also somewhat annoyed he didn't attempt to say "Ushiromiya Kinzo is my grandfather". Because if we're accepting the existence of multiple people called Battler, there's no particular reason that they can't both be Kinzo's grandchildren. Yeah agreed, but the reason he didn't is plainly that he didn't really give a poo poo about the game in that moment so much as his relationship with his mom specifically.
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Mar 4, 2017 20:04
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Yeah, I imagine suddenly finding out your mum is not your mum doesn't do wonders for the mental state.
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Mar 4, 2017 20:24
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 You know, a while ago I'd been wondering why exactly Battler and Ange look so alike when they don't share the same mother and also don't seem to resemble Rudolf that much either, but I had previously chalked it up to an artistic or narrative tell for the reader to be able to guess exactly who Ange was when she first showed up in ep3. But now... (Then again, I guess they don't really seem to resemble Kyrie that much either, but, well. #animegenetics)
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Mar 4, 2017 21:12
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So Battler was the 19th guest all along. I definitely didn't see that coming.
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Mar 4, 2017 22:09
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He could be the 20th person or maybe the 36th with the way things have been going. I don't think there can be anymore than that.
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Mar 5, 2017 02:24
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The obvious twist is to swap the fates of the babies: the legitimate child, Battler, died and our Battler is the illegitimate one. Just exchange the newborns' identities. That's why Beatrice attacks him through his mother, even though his tie into the family, and this whole mess, is through his father. Too bad Battler isn't bright enough to explore this. He's also not bright enough to realize that if he can attempt to speak red, even about things he doesn't know, he should be able to wrap everything up in ten minutes. But let's ignore the boring possibilities. I would really like to put Beatrice in the family tree somewhere. Could it be the extra infant didn't die but instead was a girl? And was removed from the family because of something something inheritance Kinzo's a bastard? Beatrice is Battler's disowned half-sister? Ok, that doesn't make much sense, but it does give Beatrice a nice motive for murdering an entire family and playing "I'm better than you" with Battler. That's been noticeably lacking so far. If the murders aren't for supernatural reasons (evil witches are just evil), why were they done? Beatrice's insistence that she didn't exist two years ago makes me think she's an alternate identity or split personality. It pretty much has to be something like this, since whatever her age, it's far more than two. So who has she been before that? She needs to know Maria. She needs to be tied to the family. She needs to resent Battler in particular. I don't know. Being a disinherited sister who gets stuck in the orphanage makes Beatrice's behavior click nicely. Battler gets a sin: walking away from the family she wants to join. But the reasons for doing it don't really make sense. If we were talking about the stillborn child really being a girl who gets put in the family orphanage, it would make sense, but then Battler is Battler and his parentage is simple. I'd like to tie Shannon or Kanon into this, but they seem too young. Beatrice says she was given form at about the same time Kinzo had the portrait set up, right? I think we can accept that Battler thinks he's Battler. Edit: why assume Battler is a male name? Beatrice could have been born Battler. BurningStone fucked around with this message at 03:10 on Mar 5, 2017 |
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Mar 5, 2017 03:02
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BurningStone posted:I'd like to tie Shannon or Kanon into this, but they seem too young. I've been thinking about the ages too, as if Kanon is really 16, being two years younger than Battler would cause a discrepancy that I don't think anyone wouldn't have noticed. At the same time... ages have been kinda funny throughout this story, haven't they, and none of them have been confirmed in red as I recall. Kanon, in particular, only confirmed his age himself, and he could have been lying; he'd hardly be the first character to be younger or older than he appears.
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Mar 5, 2017 04:09
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resurgam40 posted:he'd hardly be the first character to be younger or older than he appears. As an aside, Natsuhi is 47 while Eva is 50.
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Mar 5, 2017 04:19
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Rodyle posted:As an aside, Natsuhi is 47 while Eva is 50.  "Let's Play Umineko Chiru: The Saga of Hot Moms"
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Mar 5, 2017 05:47
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A not so gentle reminder that Battler is incompetent
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Mar 5, 2017 06:02
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Rodyle posted:As an aside, Natsuhi is 47 while Eva is 50. Asian don't raisin 
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Mar 5, 2017 06:34
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