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zegermans posted:I was the shat on police car you probably deserved it 
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Mar 5, 2017 21:32
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I was also the sexually assaulted women whose stories were denied for the glorious advancement of leftism
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Mar 5, 2017 21:36
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It seems really easy to diagnose OWS and churn out "why it failed" but after talking to a bunch of people who were there including people there from the beginning it turns out it's actually more complicated than that.
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Mar 5, 2017 21:37
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HorseRenoir posted:I've seen people unironically blame COINTELPRO for why the left is in such a sorry state in 2017 when the real answer is that the far left hasn't seriously tried to enact their goals in decades, because entryism is boring and hard and doesn't give you the instant attention and gratification that camping in a park or a vanity presidential campaign does Seriously? Entryism is to enter and control a party you don't have control of. Us lazy leftists thought that the dems were our party, so why would we have been working towards entryism before the obvious rift in the party? Edit: also it's strange to call a movement that had an obvious impact on the discourse of this nation "failed"
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Mar 5, 2017 21:37
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Ace of Baes posted:It seems really easy to diagnose OWS and churn out "why it failed" but after talking to a bunch of people who were there including people there from the beginning it turns out it's actually more complicated than that. is it really more complicated than "multi-city FBI coordinated COINTELPRO level crackdown on peaceful protests that a corporate media intentionally ignored"?
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Mar 5, 2017 21:39
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zegermans posted:is it really more complicated than "multi-city FBI coordinated COINTELPRO level crackdown on peaceful protests that a corporate media intentionally ignored"?
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Mar 5, 2017 21:43
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Condiv posted:Seriously? Entryism is to enter and control a party you don't have control of. Us lazy leftists thought that the dems were our party, so why would we have been working towards entryism before the obvious rift in the party? The same rifts in the party now existed back then, and the left were complaining about the same bad dems back then too. The only thing OWS accomplished was temporarily shift the discourse from deficit hawk bullshit to "99% vs. 1%" stuff which eventually got replaced by "job creator" bullshit from the right. I'd argue that we wouldn't be in the current situation if OWS hadn't dropped the ball so hard on building a real political force within the Dems in time for 2016
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Mar 5, 2017 21:49
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Occupy for what?
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Mar 5, 2017 21:51
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HorseRenoir posted:The same rifts in the party now existed back then, and the left were complaining about the same bad dems back then too. yeah, gotta disagree. before this election i considered myself a steadfast, yellowdog dem despite also identifying as leftist and complaining the dems didn't push hard enough left. it's silly to pretend that the current split in the dem party is even close to what we had before. also, 99% vs 1% is still in use today. it was even brought up in the 2016 election. and I would say that OWS didn't drop the ball, but rather the dems did not want them as a political force inside the party. blm, a more successful organization in your estimation isn't wanted either, as evidenced once again by the 2016 election
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Mar 5, 2017 21:55
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Occupy a job you hippies!!!
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Mar 5, 2017 21:57
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jeb was a jobber now that I think about it
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Mar 5, 2017 21:58
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Occupy Jeb!
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Mar 5, 2017 21:59
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I should point out that stress from yelling at occupy killed Andrew Breitbart, so they did effect some positive change.
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Mar 5, 2017 22:00
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zegermans posted:is it really more complicated than "multi-city FBI coordinated COINTELPRO level crackdown on peaceful protests that a corporate media intentionally ignored"? Sure. Plenty of Occupy encampments didn't get busted up by the cops, and they accomplished just as little. The reason Occupy failed was because they had no plan for what to do if Occupying and having protest marches was not enough to meaningfully change the system. They needed to do more, and they'd never really considered that possibility because they grew up with sanitized, idealized protest stories where civil rights activists walked around with signs and gave a couple good speeches until racism ended forever.
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Mar 5, 2017 22:02
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zegermans posted:I should point out that stress from yelling at occupy killed Andrew Breitbart, so they did effect some positive change. a legit nazi took over for him though so gona say no his death was a good thing though just like scalias
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Mar 5, 2017 22:07
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I went on a bike ride with occupy once it was pretty cool but I had a skateboard and I didn't realize they were going like 20 miles so I got tired and took the train home. I sometimes wonder if I'd had better endurance maybe we would have smashed capitalism that day.
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Mar 5, 2017 22:12
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Condiv posted:yeah, gotta disagree. before this election i considered myself a steadfast, yellowdog dem despite also identifying as leftist and complaining the dems didn't push hard enough left. it's silly to pretend that the current split in the dem party is even close to what we had before. I feel like the shift from 2016 is the exact opposite; there's a lot of people on the left who are finally engaging with the Dems as a group they can be a part of and change, instead of an impenetrable group off in the distance that is sometimes helpful but mostly useless. The only difference in the current split in the dem party is that there are proportionally more progressives now because the blue dogs we hated in 2009 have since been replaced by worse republicans Also BLM is still an active organization that has physical events in 2017, Occupy is literally just a facebook page now iirc
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Mar 5, 2017 22:23
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HorseRenoir posted:OWS's problem was that it lacked clearly stated goals and a path towards achieving them, full stop. They didn't need a leadership to function as evidenced by a decentralized movement like Black Lives Matter. The problem with OWS was that it was fundamentally built around a flashy but meaningless symbolic stunt that was unsustainable in the long term, and they had no ideas on how to channel that energy beyond "attention from national media -> ??? -> full communism now" *Every major leftist gets shot for 50 years, leftists abandon politics for 30 years* "Why didn't you try working within the system?!"
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Mar 5, 2017 22:23
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HorseRenoir posted:I feel like the shift from 2016 is the exact opposite; there's a lot of people on the left who are finally engaging with the Dems as a group they can be a part of and change, instead of an impenetrable group off in the distance that is sometimes helpful but mostly useless. The only difference in the current split in the dem party is that there are proportionally more progressives now because the blue dogs we hated in 2009 have since been replaced by worse republicans so.... your only criteria for OWS having failed is they don't exist anymore? if that's what you want to say I won't disagree with you, but I still think it's p harsh to call a series of protests that forced poo poo like 99% into the political discourse failed. as for the shift, if that's how you feel about it, I'm not gonna tell you you're wrong. but i feel i've had the exact opposite experience from within the left. there's a lot of people who are engaging the dems as a group to wrest control of, not as a group that they feel they can be part of. they don't feel like they are part of the current dem party at all, and it makes them angry. but, like yours, these are anecdotal experiences and my evaluations of such
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Mar 5, 2017 22:30
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Occupy definitely set the tone for the Bernie Sanders campaign, and the people energized by both are the only hope Democrats have of stopping Republicans and Donald Trump from turning our country into demolition Man. So I'd say that's good.
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Mar 5, 2017 22:32
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Gringostar posted:a legit nazi took over for him though so gona say no Breitbart was also a literal nazi. At least it was one less nazi.
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Mar 5, 2017 22:32
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Main Paineframe posted:Sure. Plenty of Occupy encampments didn't get busted up by the cops, and they accomplished just as little. The reason Occupy failed was because they had no plan for what to do if Occupying and having protest marches was not enough to meaningfully change the system. They needed to do more, and they'd never really considered that possibility because they grew up with sanitized, idealized protest stories where civil rights activists walked around with signs and gave a couple good speeches until racism ended forever. Exactly! Occupy taught us that the sanitized stories were bullshit, you need to commit violence against the state to make it cave to your demands. I'm still waiting for more people to realize that though, hopefully president piss will wake them up that poo poo is Fubar.
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Mar 5, 2017 22:32
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Paineframes experience is mostly based on twitter people he reads but doesnt like. Those on the ground are definitely more in the defiant and oppositional camp. They dont even really see Bernie as a leader, but his campaign certainly helped them to realize they had power. Bernie isnt a leader, just the person who, in the words of Alinsky, turned their bad scene into a solveable problem.
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Mar 5, 2017 22:35
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Condiv posted:so.... your only criteria for OWS having failed is they don't exist anymore? if that's what you want to say I won't disagree with you, but I still think it's p harsh to call a series of protests that forced poo poo like 99% into the political discourse failed. Oh I agree that the left views the Dems as a group to wrest control of, it's just that's prior to 2016 leftists seemed to scoff over the idea of entryism and working within the system got any sevens posted:*Every major leftist gets shot for 50 years, leftists abandon politics for 30 years* *Leftists abandon politics for 30 years* "Why is there no one in the system that represents us?!"
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Mar 5, 2017 22:38
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A whole 30 politics
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Mar 5, 2017 22:39
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Never do a politics, kids
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Mar 5, 2017 22:40
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MT Dem nominating convention to replace Zinke happening now. Going to 2nd ballot. The candidate backed by Party executive committee (Curtis) came in second to Rob Quist, Hero of Montanans. #quistmentum
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Mar 5, 2017 22:41
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Yeah it's not about Bernie, clueless centerists think Bernie is a cult of personality without realizing he's just a rallying point for the left, the left has all sorts of range when it comes to views, Bernie was just the first politician in a long time to bring them together with a combination of authenticity and directly addressing issues with actual good solutions. If Bernie had a heart attack or something someone else yelling about income inequality and universal healthcare, CJ reform etc. would pop up. It helps that Bernie is also cool and good and likable but the idea that all these young people are showing up for the raw sexual energy of Bernie Sanders shows how hilariously out of touch these people are.
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Mar 5, 2017 22:42
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zegermans posted:I was the shat on police car We know, we read your posts.
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Mar 5, 2017 22:42
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HorseRenoir posted:Oh I agree that the left views the Dems as a group to wrest control of, it's just that's prior to 2016 leftists seemed to scoff over the idea of entryism and working within the system We know how the occupy and Bernie movements are filled with people who were able to be politically active 30 years ago lol
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Mar 5, 2017 22:44
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Why didn't Keith Ellison run for DNC chair 30 years ago, when he was in college?
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Mar 5, 2017 22:47
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Ace of Baes posted:Why didn't Keith Ellison run for DNC chair 30 years ago, when he was in college? He was too busy working with Louis Farrakhan lawl
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Mar 5, 2017 22:47
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Ace of Baes posted:We know how the occupy and Bernie movements are filled with people who were able to be politically active 30 years ago lol the point I'm making is that our current situation is based on 30 years of disengagement with the system
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Mar 5, 2017 22:47
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HorseRenoir posted:the point I'm making is that our current situation is based on 30 years of disengagement with the system I agree that people over the age of 50 fuckin suck, which is why they voted for Hillary Clinton in the 2016 Democratic Presidential nominee.
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Mar 5, 2017 22:50
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legitimately to see turnout for the 18-29 age bracket in 2018-2020 if we still have elections
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Mar 5, 2017 22:51
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HorseRenoir posted:Oh I agree that the left views the Dems as a group to wrest control of, it's just that's prior to 2016 leftists seemed to scoff over the idea of entryism and working within the system i think you're confusing the left that has long been separate from the dem party and the left as it is now. i was a yellow dog dem, even though i've always been leftist to the point that I thought socialism or communism was what america needed. there are a ton of leftist dems that feel/felt the same way I did, but have always voted with the dems anyway because they thought it was in their best interests. that you can now recognize us "entryist leftists" shows you how big the rift in the dem party has become. the only leftists you could see before, the group that exited the dem party long ago and didn't want to work with them, have been supplanted by the much larger group of leftists that have been working with the dems all along and have finally gotten fed up and raised their voices.
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Mar 5, 2017 22:52
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zegermans posted:He was too busy working with Louis Farrakhan lawl nice islamophobia
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Mar 5, 2017 22:53
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Condiv posted:nice islamophobia Nation of Islam sucks and murdered Malcolm X
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Mar 5, 2017 22:55
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HorseRenoir posted:The only difference between now and then is that the fringe right has already given the left the gameplan on how to enact real change in Washington, and I'm under no assumption that the left would have figured this out on their own. i dunno it's that they never figured it out prior so much as there wasn't the mass sense of urgency compelling normal people into action before also the democratic party being at the weakest it's been since the end of the civil war and the vast majority of the establishment/bad dems/whatever you want to call them still being completely asleep at the wheel regarding what to do next has created an opportunity for increased involvement from the left that really didn't exist back when the party was still winning elections
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Mar 5, 2017 22:55
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Mar 5, 2017 22:56
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