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I'm glad they actually acknowledged that Yamagi's gay, even if it's the episode after the guy he's gay for got killed off. e; the moment where Orga realises how toxic his relationship with Tekkadan is:  The moment where you think Mika's also realised how toxic his relationship with Orga is:  The moment where lol j/k actually they're still both completely hosed in the head  
Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Mar 5, 2017 |
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Mar 5, 2017 20:16
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MonsterEnvy posted:He stated he did understand him. As he already knew someone of the same type. But McGillis words and the dreams he inspires are lies, and he never would have given him what he wanted. Well, Isurugi didn't have anything to live for but at least being by McGillis' side gave him something to dream for. For someone with nothing, it hardly mattered to them that McGillis isn't being entirely truthful. And though Gaelio says he has a different perspective now and can understand people like Ein and Isurugi better, he's keeping Ein's brain in a jar. I mean, there's practical reasons for it. He most likely couldn't have access to Gjallarhorn's perfected AV surgery given that it's McGillis' pet project and it'd be too great a risk for him to get the surgery through other means. However, it doesn't look good for him. He can say whatever he wants but it's what he does that matters. And right now, Gaelio ranks getting revenge on McGillis more important than anything else. Maybe he'll turn on Rustal once things are settled but actions speak louder than words. Speculation time! I think if Rustal and Iok manage to survive and return to Earth, I think the other Seven Stars may force them into early retirement because their violations of Gjallarhorn's own taboos did kick off the rebellion. If Gaelio survives as well, he'll probably convince his father to do it too.
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Mar 5, 2017 20:49
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MonsterEnvy posted:He stated he did understand him. As he already knew someone of the same type. But McGillis words and the dreams he inspires are lies, and he never would have given him what he wanted. Gaelio is aristocratic idiot who got to saw just how bad Gjallahorn could be but was too caught up in his own narrative of being a purifying hero to give a drat. In season two he has a slightly better idea about the reality of the world but he is still content to condemn the obvious results of Gjallahorn corruption but remains unwilling to do anything to change it.
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Mar 5, 2017 21:14
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Hunt11 posted:Gaelio is aristocratic idiot who got to saw just how bad Gjallahorn could be but was too caught up in his own narrative of being a purifying hero to give a drat. In season two he has a slightly better idea about the reality of the world but he is still content to condemn the obvious results of Gjallahorn corruption but remains unwilling to do anything to change it. Saying Gaelio wants to do nothing to change it isn't really fair. He has little ability to change it as long as McGillis is active and poisoning the well of genuine reform. That doesn't mean Gaelio will take up that mantel either but McGillis has done massive harm to the idea of reforming Gjallerhorn with his hosed up quest
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Mar 5, 2017 21:34
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Lemon-Lime posted:The moment where lol j/k actually they're still both completely hosed in the head No kidding. I was wondering how they were going to play that scene but Orga doubling down on everything was pretty painful. The character dynamics in this show still feel really strange to me. Even after all this time and everything that has happened, Orga and Mikazuki haven't really changed since episode one. Orga learned to be a better leader from Naze, but mostly that experience reaffirmed his instincts to treat Tekkadan like family and fight for a better place for them. Ultimately, he couldn't accept Naze's advice to slow down and take the safer road. Mikazuki is still Orga's dog of war, determined to kill his way to the promised land and pushing Orga back into line whenever he wavers. As glad as I was to see him acknowledge his complicity in Orga's actions, the great lesson he learned from this battle was that he hadn't killed enough people. If he'd been a more effective killer, they'd have won. Though there's a certain purity to that, I can't think of him as a protagonist. He's more like a monster or a force of nature. In season one Kudelia somewhat made up for the static male leads by going through her own heroic journey, starting out painfully aware of her limits, losing a friend/mentor figure, gaining agency over the people trying to manipulate her, and ultimately choosing to embrace her role as the maiden of the revolution. Season two she's mostly off-screen, as a foil at best, the character who chose the slow road. Meanwhile, Rustal himself as an enigmatic and wise mentor to his odd squad of nominal antagonists. He's also a ruthless bastard aristocrat enforcing the status quo and all that, but what interests me is his team. Gaelio has gone through a transformational arc after McGillis betrayed him and left him for dead. But even before that point, his friendship with Ein challenged his assumptions and exposed his flaws as Ein sacrificed himself repeatedly to protect Gaelio from his own arrogance. Gaelio has let go of his prejudice against the space rats and the AV system and accepted his limitations as a pilot. Though he's still preoccupied with playing the heroic knight to a new villain, his relationship with Julietta is proof of his growth. Julietta is introduced as the cocky ace, one of an alarming supply of commoners promoted by an aristocratic master and fanatically devoted to them knocking around the setting. Confronted by the fact that other pilots are stronger than her, she sought power in order to fulfill her self-assigned role as Rustal's sword. But she's needled and grounded by Gaelio, who rightly notices she's very like Ein. Consecutive defeats have humbled her and led her to accept her limitations, leading to the final battle where she acknowledges Mika's superiority and fights only to buy time. Nonetheless, she is defeated once again. However, she's given up on becoming an invincible monster like Mika and reaffirms her humanity. It took me a moment to realise the significance of that scene, but she's the Ein who took the high road. Whereas Ein degenerated into a power-obsessed monster incarnated into and identifying fully as a gigantic killing machine as a result of Gaelio enabling him, Julietta has resolved to remain as a human while seeking strength in her own way. Gaelio managed to do it right this time around. Even Iok has a sort of arc, as his arrogance and foolishness led his subordinates to their deaths and cut a swathe across the setting. His heinous crimes need no repetition, but in this final battle Rustal has deigned to teach him basic concepts such as long term planning and he has demonstrated a newfound humility. What he's done is unforgivable, but he's still changed throughout the course of the series. So we have protagonists who willfully refuse to change even in the face of disaster and antagonists who go through character arcs that transform their flawed worldviews. I think that's why I find Tekkadan so hard to like, even though they're good kids who deserve to live better lives than they currently do fighting aristocrats defending the toxic status quo. Though there's something to be said for moral ambiguity and complex antagonists after Tekkadan spent most of two seasons fighting immensely unlikable assholes with no pretensions to be characters, I do find it a little unsatisfying. Would it have killed Mika and Orga to change their mind about something?
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Mar 5, 2017 21:59
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The main thing about Orga is that he has changed his mind about things. He's become more cautious, he doesn't want to jump straight into unwinnable situations anymore and hope for Mika to fix everything. He's downright scared of what's going on, he wants to be out of it, he feels guilty for making so many of his own people die. But he can't have what he wants, because the rest of Tekkadan has not gone through that change. Eugene is far more cool-headed and far better of a leader than he was in S1, but he's basically entirely stuck in his sunk costs: they have dead people, so they can't go back, else their deaths lose meaning. Shino is not a smart person and is fully aware of it, so he's just going straight in for Orga's "king of Mars" wish, even forcing Orga into his own dream just so he can follow it. Mika is always there to tell Orga to get more and more bloodthirsty and how he'll be his weapon and kill as many people as he needs to. He's loyal, but he's a psycopath, and Orga is too afraid to go against Mika's will, and he feels that as a leader he must follow his team's wishes, apparently not realizing what being a leader is. Basically, Orga and McGillis are complete opposites right now. McGillis forces his will unto others by way of his extreme charisma, and said others follow him without any sort of questioning, having fully bought into his dreams, not realizing that McGillis is a monster who only cares about power and will gladly sacrifice them all, or worse, some fully realize it but still go on with it because it's the one ray of hope they still have (Isurugi in this episode proving this). Orga, meanwhile, has become more cautious, more unwilling to go on, despite being the one who bought into the King of Mars bullshit at first. But he managed to sell that dream to Tekkadan, and now Tekkadan wants said dream. They don't understand it, but they fully believe it's the only good ending Tekkadan can have now, so they force Orga to continue even though Orga, wisely, is scared of a fight they can't win. A fight they won't win. Mika has zero development beyond realizing a bit more about what human emotion is, but that's already important. He's still a massive psycho who's only the hero nominally (and the series makes no attempts to hide this), but he now realizes that Atra means something to him and wants to protect her, which is...a lot for someone who'd gladly hug women because he didn't even remotely understand the significance of it and who told someone blatantly in love with him to have children, with anyone or with him, without any sort of care.
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Mar 5, 2017 22:14
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MonsterEnvy posted:He stated he did understand him. As he already knew someone of the same type. But McGillis words and the dreams he inspires are lies, and he never would have given him what he wanted. Which is pretty appropriate, since Ein was (is?) someone with the same rough arc. An honest soldier of Gjallarhorn whose loyalty was exploited by McGillis, until all that was left was a weapon... and Gaelio's friend. (Funny. Ein's been burned down to two things, his best and his worst. The loyal friend, and the heartless weapon, with all the humanity in the middle burned right out.) It shows in the last moments with the Reincar. Last episode, Gaelio was in a position of, roughly "gently caress you, you shitbird!" on the guy. But when the story comes out, Gaelio's right back to sincere pity. Moving back to our nominal heroes, I quite liked a lot of what was going down with Tekkadan. Eugene picking up some of the Heavy Lies The Head, preventing him from calling Orga on wanting to back down when they're pretty well hosed if they try at this point because part of him's just as ready to hide in the gutters was decent, but some of the other stuff was also really solid. Yamagi's being in capital L with Shino isn't exactly a surprise, although the show was remarkably explicit about it, but I thought Norba's talk about it in the flashback was interesting. Not "Weird he doesn't want to gently caress girls", but "Aren't we kind of brothers? That's weird, since we're family and all. Anyway, good for him. Takes all kinds to make a world." But Akihiro's part was probably my favorite. Guy's had maybe the most growth of any Tekkadan member, mostly through pain, and seeing him with Derma... last family of any sort he has left, and the poor kid thinks he's worthless because he can't be a pilot any more. And Akihirio has to thank him, as his CO, for surviving, just because his survival matters, as a person? It was nice to see. Poor guy finally managed to save something that mattered to him.
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Mar 5, 2017 22:48
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Shino didn't think Yamagi was weird for liking guys, he thought Yamagi was weird for liking him. Nobody in Tekkadan has good self esteem 
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Mar 5, 2017 22:52
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I just realized that Zack is a viewer stand in.
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Mar 5, 2017 22:55
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Cao Ni Ma posted:I just realized that Zack is a viewer stand in. As Hush and Dane pointed out as well the stakes are a lot lower for him. He has an education, a home a place to go back to were he can get a job. Hell he was stated to be better then Yukinojo in some fields of mechanics. Zack can easily find a good life outside of Tekkadan unlike them.
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Mar 5, 2017 23:27
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Can we please not go fighting near or on mars? This has awful idea written all over it in so many ways.
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Mar 5, 2017 23:32
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If there's an upside to how things are looking for Tekkadan it's that we might get a cool reprise of Orphans no Namida at the very end of the show
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Mar 5, 2017 23:36
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I'm glad Julieta reached one of the two goal posts I wanted her to as a character. It was either gonna be get murdered hard by Mika while saying it's all for Rustal, or somehow survive and be the anti-Ein. I probably would of started to hate her if she decided to become a Julietabot since it would of ruined so much of her growth. also Yamagi 
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Mar 5, 2017 23:49
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ImpAtom posted:Saying Gaelio wants to do nothing to change it isn't really fair. He has little ability to change it as long as McGillis is active and poisoning the well of genuine reform. That doesn't mean Gaelio will take up that mantel either but McGillis has done massive harm to the idea of reforming Gjallerhorn with his hosed up quest In a sense, it might turn out for the better this way because nobody would want to accept a Gjallarhorn that doesn't reform. And if it refuses to reform, the world may just decide to dump it. The remaining Seven Stars probably won't be happy with Rustal even though he's saved their asses because it was him and Iok that contributed so much to the reformers' rebellion. Gjallarhorn's position is maintained through military supremacy but also through the trust of the economic blocs. That trust was shaken with Iznario's meddling in Arbrau's politics but to those in the know, it was a one-time thing...right? There's no coming back from this though. Not only did it happen again, with three of the Seven Stars (Rustal, Iok, and McGillis) breaking rules and starting poo poo. Gaelio and Rustal's broadcasts didn't even deny the reformers' allegations.
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Mar 5, 2017 23:59
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I actually got a little annoyed at the Rustal Faction character scenes in this ep. While it's uplifting that Julieta decided that she wasn't going to give up her humanity for power, Gaelio coming in and smiling and nodding like he's going "good choice, Julie" while he rides around in a machine with a psuedo-AV system made out of the brain matter of his dead friend because he needed its power to fulfill his personal vendetta is hypocritical as hell. Gaelio is basically a walking "do as I say, not as I do" at this point. Kanos fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Mar 6, 2017 |
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Mar 6, 2017 02:07
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The dude can be a monster and not want other people to also be monsters.
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Mar 6, 2017 02:16
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Kanos posted:I actually got a little annoyed at the Rustal Faction character scenes in this ep. I think you're slightly misreading his motives. He wants to give Ein a chance for vengeance because once he was reduced to a broken weapon by Mika, it was the last good thing he could let him have. During the colony uprising, he expressed satisfaction that both he and Ein had the opportunity to fight for a worthy cause again. He wants to prevent Julietta from going down that path because Ein is a continual reminder to him of what happens when you start stripping away your possibilities like that. There's a lot of good things that she still has the chance to experience, and he damned well wants to make sure she has the chance.
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Mar 6, 2017 02:34
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Guy Goodbody posted:The dude can be a monster and not want other people to also be monsters. He can also stop being a monster at any point he wants, but he has chosen not to. The only reason for him to continue making use of the Pseudo-AV system is to fulfill an arrogant desire to be the one to personally stab McGillis to death to prove a point to himself; he doesn't need to use Ein's brain to ruin McGillis's plans and stop the coup, he only needs it for personal vengeance. Julieta was at least considering becoming a monster for a slightly loftier goal than wanting to personally revenge-kill someone.
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Mar 6, 2017 02:36
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Kanos posted:I actually got a little annoyed at the Rustal Faction character scenes in this ep. You're assuming he doesn't know he's being a hypocrite, despite the big speech he made to McGillis like 5 minutes before about how he knows using Ein-borg is bad.
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Mar 6, 2017 02:37
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Darth Walrus posted:I think you're slightly misreading his motives. He wants to give Ein a chance for vengeance because once he was reduced to a broken weapon by Mika, it was the last good thing he could let him have. During the colony uprising, he expressed satisfaction that both he and Ein had the opportunity to fight for a worthy cause again. He wants to prevent Julietta from going down that path because Ein is a continual reminder to him of what happens when you start stripping away your possibilities like that. There's a lot of good things that she still has the chance to experience, and he damned well wants to make sure she has the chance. Using Ein as scrap components for a twisted variant of the system that drove him insane, killed him, and rendered his very name a whispered curse within the organization he devoted his life to in order to get petty personal revenge is a pretty loving lovely tribute to your dead friend's memory. He didn't need to make Einborg Mk2 to destroy McGillis's plans.
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Mar 6, 2017 02:39
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Kanos posted:Using Ein as scrap components for a twisted variant of the system that drove him insane, killed him, and rendered his very name a whispered curse within the organization he devoted his life to in order to get petty personal revenge is a pretty loving lovely tribute to your dead friend's memory. That's the thing, though - the Type E is not, by his reasoning, something new made from his friend's body. The logic seems to be that his buddy's still alive, but barely functional, so this is a way for him to do the only thing he can still do in a way that makes him a hero rather than a monster. Pretty much all his dialogue about Ein and the Gundam Vidar this season has been about helping him, giving him an opportunity to keep the peace and strike down the monster who robbed him of everything. It's a terrible situation with few good options, and this is the one he picked.
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Mar 6, 2017 03:01
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Kanos posted:Using Ein as scrap components for a twisted variant of the system that drove him insane, killed him, and rendered his very name a whispered curse within the organization he devoted his life to in order to get petty personal revenge is a pretty loving lovely tribute to your dead friend's memory. Yeah, he did. McGillis is a more talented pilot than he is even WITHOUT a Gundam, AV system and Mika on his side. He isn't going for personal petty revenge. McGillis is a genuine monster, especially in his eyes. He also seems to genuinely consider the Ein thing Ein fighting alongside him, not him exploiting him. That might not be entirely sane but it is how he feels. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 03:07 on Mar 6, 2017 |
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Mar 6, 2017 03:05
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Hell Gaelio was not super personally devoted to revenge despite wanting to be. Both Julietta and McGillis commented on this. He did not even reveal McGillis crimes or attempt to attack him because he wanted to believe McGillis had good intentions. After his coup and theft of Bael, he determined he did not and fully went against him and revealed his crimes.
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Mar 6, 2017 04:14
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Kanos posted:Using Ein as scrap components for a twisted variant of the system that drove him insane, killed him, and rendered his very name a whispered curse within the organization he devoted his life to in order to get petty personal revenge is a pretty loving lovely tribute to your dead friend's memory. Actually it was the repeated failure and bloodlust against children that he thought unjustly murdered his NotDad that drove him insane. The whole insanity thing led to him agreeing to be all brain jacked up.
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Mar 6, 2017 04:20
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Actually it was the repeated failure and bloodlust against children that he thought unjustly murdered his NotDad that drove him insane. The whole insanity thing led to him agreeing to be all brain jacked up. Not correct. He sacrificed himself to save Gaelio. And then McGillis got Gaelio's permission to use cybernetics to save his life. (McGillis hiding that he was going to be used in battle.) He was then turned into a giant robot for battle and being turned into a robot seemed to have had adverse effects on his sanity. As he became more and more unstable as he ran around as the Graze Ein.
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Mar 6, 2017 05:02
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You're both half right. Ein def had some wacko bloodlust going on with the Tekkadan kids and he straight up refused to humanize them due to them killing the only member of Gjallarhorn that had treated him like anything but dirt up to that point. He later had much the same relationship with Gaelio, but Gaelio was much more naive and aristocratic about it, and so allowed the cybernetic surgery to be conducted on him without thinking of the potential consequences or even really understanding Ein's mental state. Ein, meanwhile, took it as a good thing that he could go kill Tekkadan gloriously for his lord, lost what little of his poo poo he had left, and then Edmonton happened. Ein was a garbage human being that was produced by a garbage system. He was basically Iok coming from the other end of the poverty line. However, he did legitimately care for and wish to defend Crank and Gaelio, and Gaelio ended up using that desire in a lovely way (admittedly without complete knowledge of what was happening) and his current relationship with the Vidar's AV rig is a possibly not-quite-sane way of acknowledging that.
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Mar 6, 2017 05:45
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ImpAtom posted:Yeah, he did. McGillis is a more talented pilot than he is even WITHOUT a Gundam, AV system and Mika on his side. He isn't going for personal petty revenge. McGillis is a genuine monster, especially in his eyes. The thing is that Gaelio doesn't have to personally stab McGillis to death to stop his plans and Rustal didn't need additional battle power to crush McGillis at all. The Vidar/Kimaris is solely Gaelio's wounded ego and his anger at his, Ein, and Carta's exploitation and betrayal that wants to do that. I do concur that he thinks that Ein is fighting alongside him instead of being exploited but that's pretty symptomatic of Gaelio's weird worldview. Kanos fucked around with this message at 06:36 on Mar 6, 2017 |
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Mar 6, 2017 06:33
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Also I can't help but laugh at this comment an another forum someone made about Jullieta's survival. quote:Why make that whore survive? Is she some kind of important character? The bitch who doesn;t have any goal in her life besides blindly serving for her master. Like let me just alter a few words on that. quote:Why make that SoB survive? Is he some kind of important character? The bastard who doesn;t have any goal in his life besides blindly serving for his master. It's kind of amazing how some people can't see how easily the same comment could be thrown at Mika.
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Mar 6, 2017 06:43
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Kanos posted:The thing is that Gaelio doesn't have to personally stab McGillis to death to stop his plans and Rustal didn't need additional battle power to crush McGillis at all. The Vidar/Kimaris is solely Gaelio's wounded ego and his anger at his, Ein, and Carta's exploitation and betrayal that wants to do that. I do concur that he thinks that Ein is fighting alongside him instead of being exploited but that's pretty symptomatic of Gaelio's weird worldview. That is not true at all. A major factor in IBO's setting is that a single extremely powerful fighter has a disproportionately large impact on a battlefield. It is why Julieta was specifically designated with the task of "stop Mika" because Mika is someone capable of actually having an absurdly large impact on a battlefield. He can't literally win a war singlehanded but he can deal such absurd damage that his fighting capabilities are worth noting, and then he was backed up by three other A-V piloted gundams, at least one of whom was a talented enough fighter he was an ace pilot before he had an A-V system. Without something to counter those people you run the risk of them being able to gently caress over your plans. (And indeed they almost did.) Someone like Gaelio is literally the only way to counter Mika who still has not gone full-out at any point in this conflict so far. (though we can assume if he'd disobeyed Orga's orders he would have, and Mika is a significant enough fighter that his claim that he could have killed them can't be discounted as idle bragging.) The only other pilot they have who can do that is Julieta and she was on Mika duty and still got almost killed for it despite doing her job. Even beyond that there's an actual meaningful symbolic value in Gaelio fighting McGillis, just as there was in him revealing himself, that is necessary to defeat McGillis's own use of symbols. A big part of why McGillis' plan is faltering is because Gaelio came out against him. You can argue that he could have done that from a ship but Gaelio is actually one of Gjallerhorn's better pilots even without a A-V system and it doesn't make any sense for him not to do that, especially as Gjallerhorn was founded by and places huge stock in MS pilots. Yes, he's also someone who wants to finish the fight with his own hands, but he very clearly is framing that as him taking the sin himself and he isn't doing it just for petty pride and revenge but explicitly to counter McGillis' worldview. When he killed Isurugi this episode he wasn't screaming at him for getting in the way of killing McGillis, he was upset and frustrated that someone else threw themselves in the meat grinder that was McGillis's ambitions. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 06:52 on Mar 6, 2017 |
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Mar 6, 2017 06:45
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Eh, Gaelio personally crushing McGillis is kind of a petty revenge. He can justify it to himself however he wants but in the end it's still personal payback for what McGillis did to Ein, Carta, and himself. The only person (Ein probably barely counts as a person considering his current state) other than Gaelio who would benefit from a thorough deconstruction of McGillis' philosophy through physical force would be McGillis, and it takes a pretty twisted viewpoint for that to make sense. "Free" McGillis from the philosophy that's dominated his entire life, so that in his last moments he may...find peace or something? Who knows. Rustal was biding his time until he could assemble a good enough case against McGillis. Time just wasn't on their side to make McGillis go peacefully. Now they're in full conflict with McGillis' forces, with most of the rebellious Gjallarhorn fleet destroyed. There aren't many good reasons not to take down McGillis and end the fighting already. Rustal already noted he wanted to preserve McGillis' fleet, which he presumes are not made out of the idealistic rabble that formed the other fleet. The other fleet that's now destroyed. Without those idealistic idiots, Rustal thinks there's no force that wouldn't surrender if McGillis could be taken out of the picture. Except rather than eliminate him, as he had opportunity to do so with multiple dainsleif salvos, he lets Gaelio do it. Probably at Gaelio's request. I doubt Gaelio could've done much if Rustal refused to let him out and fight. Leaving McGillis solely to Gaelio is a stupid move on Rustal's part unless he doesn't mind losing Gaelio in the process. Which might well be the case. Gaelio might have been in line to inherit the seat but his dad is still the current leader. Thus, Rustal could more or less possess his support for harboring his son without letting any of Gaelios' reformist leanings (assuming he still has those) get in the way. The hero of Gjallarhorn who slew the traitor would be permanently at his side as a loyal retainer with no voice to speak against him.
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Mar 6, 2017 07:14
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Argas posted:The only person (Ein probably barely counts as a person considering his current state) other than Gaelio who would benefit from a thorough deconstruction of McGillis' philosophy through physical force would be McGillis, Gaelio literally just killed someone who is a walking talking example of why McGillis needs his philosophy shut down and there are plenty of other impressionable youths working under him.
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Mar 6, 2017 07:19
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ImpAtom posted:Gaelio literally just killed someone who is a walking talking example of why McGillis needs his philosophy shut down and there are plenty of other impressionable youths working under him. They're not exactly televising their fight and broadcasting their argument. Isurugi butted in and showed no regrets, even knowing that his commander isn't exactly the person he pretends to be. He was willing to give his life because even if McGillis is a lie, it's a lie that people like Izurugi needed to dream. Yeah, it's not exactly a good trade-off to die in battle for a lie over dying without hope but Gjallarhorn isn't providing people like Isurugi with hope. Hell, Ein's twisted obsession with Crank was brought about in part because he joined Gjallarhorn. Despite becoming one of humanity's elite peacekeepers he was taught he was Martian trash and had no dreams of his own to live for. The people who'd most benefit from McGillis getting torn down piece by piece were precisely the same people Rustal already took out of the picture, and they wouldn't even realize it because again, Gaelio isn't broadcasting this poo poo to everyone. Gaelio isn't going to record his fight and then have it archived in the Gjallarhorn archives as "Reasons Mcgillis Fareed is loving stupid." Gaelio has never brought up McGillis' philosophy to anyone except for Rustal. It'd probably be a waste of breath to try and convince people that McGillis isn't really the reformer they think he is, but he's not exactly trying to get a message out to anyone. Deconstructing McGillis is something he's doing out of self-satisfaction because nobody is really aware that McGillis is a child lusting for power. He had the chance to do it but he never tried. Probably because it'd make him look a bit like a raving lunatic, but the path they've chosen isn't convincing anyone. In Rustal's eyes, the Outer Earth Fleet are mostly following McGillis because he's their commander. Following this train of logic, eliminating McGillis with dainsleif rather than letting Gaelio get his wish would only lead to a tiny fraction of McGillis' forces continuing the fight because he could get McGillis' fleet to surrender. Eliminating McGillis faster preserves Gjallarhorn's power.
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Mar 6, 2017 07:46
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Argas posted:They're not exactly televising their fight and broadcasting their argument. He is not literally broadcasting the fight but Gaelio coming out and broadcasting himself and what McGillis did is a plot point. in an earlier episode. Also to some degree "it is a mecha anime" is an answer here. It's like asking why nobody decided to take Mika out by having someone shoot him with a sniper rifle while he's not in his suit. The show does a relatively good job of justifying mecha anime trappings but it still lives by them and the symbolic value of the fight is both an in-and-out of story thing. Gaelio can be wrong about the symbolic value of what he's doing but he's openly stated why he's doing it. Painting it as "oh actually Gaelio is just a revenge-driven monster who wants to murder people" goes against both what the show has shown and his actual character growth because that is who he was in the first Season, just aimed at Mika instead of McGillis. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 07:53 on Mar 6, 2017 |
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Mar 6, 2017 07:50
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ImpAtom posted:Gaelio literally just killed someone who is a walking talking example of why McGillis needs his philosophy shut down and there are plenty of other impressionable youths working under him. People like Isurugi aren't following the twisted might-makes-right ideology that Gaelio is trying to refute. People like Isurugi are following McGillis because McGillis provided them with some hope of advancement and personal success in a hosed up, stagnant status quo that forgot about them. The average McGillis koolaid drinker doesn't know poo poo about the true philosophy that drives McGillis that Gaelio wants to deny. Gaelio's desire to deconstruct McGillis personally stems entirely from a personal sense of outrage and betrayal, which is totally reasonable and understandable but also selfish and not really noble in the slightest.
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Mar 6, 2017 07:51
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Kanos posted:People like Isurugi aren't following the twisted might-makes-right ideology that Gaelio is trying to refute. No, they are being taken in by McGillis and part of what Gaelio wants to do is expose that. He has already literally broadcast to everyone what McGillis did both to him and to Carta. He isn't working in the shadows but has removed his mask and openly presented himself and part of that is fighting as a symbol. You can argue he's fighting for the wrong side or that he's got the wrong ideals but saying that he hasn't changed at all from Season 1 except changing his target feels dishonest to the actual growth he's had.
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Mar 6, 2017 07:55
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ImpAtom posted:He is not literally broadcasting the fight but Gaelio coming out and broadcasting himself and what McGillis did is a plot point. in an earlier episode. And nobody on McGillis' side has brought up the accusations. Because at worst those just paint McGillis as a schemer who wants more personal power. It's likely that they either think the accusations are false, or that McGillis needed that personal power to enact reforms. McGillis covered his tracks well in having Tekkadan as his executioner. And yeah, mecha anime explains a lot for why Rustal didn't just take out McGillis with dainsleif, but it doesn't really help with Gaelio's motivations. He's not a revenge-driven monster but his desire to tear down McGillis is a very personal fight. The people who follow McGillis don't know about his personal philosophy. Deconstructing it physically does nothing to help them.
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Mar 6, 2017 08:06
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Kanos posted:While it's uplifting that Julieta decided that she wasn't going to give up her humanity for power, Gaelio coming in and smiling and nodding like he's going "good choice, Julie" while he rides around in a machine with a psuedo-AV system made out of the brain matter of his dead friend because he needed its power to fulfill his personal vendetta is hypocritical as hell. Gaelio's conceit is that the AV Type E reaffirms rather than removes his humanity because he's not becoming one with his Gundam but subordinating himself to what remains of his lost friend. I'd agree that doesn't make a lot of literal sense and Gaelio implicitly accepted this during this episode when McGillis called him out on it, but that's the argument he made to Julietta. It's also true that as a matter of practicality the Type E serves as a buffer to protect him from the worst elements of the AV system, the need to sacrifice your body for power. The difference is a matter of sentiment, and Gaelio is and remains a sentimental person who has chosen to self-consciously defend the value of sentimentality in a setting that frequently regards it with contempt. As others have discussed, he regards himself as flying with and for the remains of his dead friend, sharing the joy of the battlefield and seeking to prove that their bond and power can triumph over McGillis. This is a sharp contrast with McGillis, who used the AV system in a purely pragmatic way to obtain a symbol of political power, and also with Mika, who uses the AV in a pure search for physical power to crush his enemies and openly scorns the notion that people can be sentimental on the battlefield. Mika isn't interested in what his enemies have to say or in proving anyone wrong. Gaelio most certainly is. Gaelio's arguing that people shouldn't use the AV just because they want to be stronger. Einborg is the logical endgame of anyone who pursues that road to its conclusion, and even Mika is sacrificing himself as he draws ever-deeper on the system's potential. Argas posted:And nobody on McGillis' side has brought up the accusations. Because at worst those just paint McGillis as a schemer who wants more personal power. It's likely that they either think the accusations are false, or that McGillis needed that personal power to enact reforms. McGillis covered his tracks well in having Tekkadan as his executioner. Incidentally, this sentimentality that Gaelio feels is exactly why he's so busy trying to refute McGillis through one vs one combat. He was very explicit in the episode where he took off his mask- he fights for all the emotions McGillis regards as stupid. In that sense, he refuses to accept the notion that war is purely technocratic, a pragmatic clash of powers where the stronger party will triumph. He seeks higher meaning in his battles, for better or for worse.
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Mar 6, 2017 08:20
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ImpAtom posted:No, they are being taken in by McGillis and part of what Gaelio wants to do is expose that. He has already literally broadcast to everyone what McGillis did both to him and to Carta. He isn't working in the shadows but has removed his mask and openly presented himself and part of that is fighting as a symbol. To be honest, I feel like he's very similar to how he was towards the end of S1. He's still got a twisted sense of noblesse oblige and his personal experience is still several layers removed from the hardship that motivates people like Isurugi or Tekkadan. His response to Isurugi's last words isn't understanding of Isurugi's plight, it's disgust for Isurugi following a madman. This lines up almost exactly with S1 Gaelio knowing Gjallarhorn needs reforming but not actually having any idea why or how. Kanos fucked around with this message at 08:54 on Mar 6, 2017 |
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Mar 6, 2017 08:52
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ImpAtom posted:No, they are being taken in by McGillis and part of what Gaelio wants to do is expose that. He has already literally broadcast to everyone what McGillis did both to him and to Carta. He isn't working in the shadows but has removed his mask and openly presented himself and part of that is fighting as a symbol. This entire season all Gaelio has done is support the strongest force for maintaining the status quo imaginable. He can witter on all he wants about how he has changed but so far all he has done is make it so that more people like Ein, Isuragi and all of Tekkaden will be created. For all of the issues McGillis has, those at the bottom of society will still follow him as he offers them a future that doesn't being stuck on the bottom with no way to change ones lot in life.
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Mar 6, 2017 09:06
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I think it is plausible to say that Gaelio has grown in a somewhat negative direction, in that McGillis has convinced him that the reform movement is an impossible, dangerous lure created by predators (which, let's be honest, our boy Macky has been making a fairly solid case for all season). That would certainly explain why he's working so comfortably with the Arianrhod Fleet, right down to accepting a Dainsleif gun on his own suit, why he saw putting down a rebellion as a noble duty, and why he sees the best solution as simply killing off the predators. I don't think he's totally blind to Gjallarhorn's atrocities, he just no longer believes that there's a movement out there that wants to do anything worthwhile about them. It's another reason why Kudelia can be such a game-changer.
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Mar 6, 2017 09:19
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