Cat Mattress posted:"People who are against the two state solution" is a long but extremely accurate paraphrase for "Israeli". Cheerleading unending war and ethnic cleansing is what the people voting for Bibi do. More colonies, more landgrabbing, more walls, that's what Israeli policy is all about and the aim is to create the "fact on the ground" that a Palestinian state is forever impossible. Pop quiz: Who did say the following things about a two state solution after the UN voted in favor of a plan for a two state solution that some would call partition plan? "Personally I hope the [other side] do[es] not force us into this war because it will be a war of elimination and it will be a dangerous massacre which history will record similarly to the Mongol massacre or the wars of the Crusades." "We will sweep them into the sea" "We shall eradicate [the other side]" "[we will] continue fighting until [others] were Annihilated". GaussianCopula fucked around with this message at 10:32 on Feb 22, 2017 |
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Feb 22, 2017 10:29
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Cat Mattress posted:Compromise is exactly what the Israeli do not want to do. Why? Because getting everything they want is exactly what they're doing, through force. You can't have a compromise between Israeli and Palestinians, because the Palestinians have nothing to offer that the Israeli cannot seize by force; and the Israeli do not want to offer anything because who could make them? The Palestinians do have something that the Israeli public generally do want and cannot seize by force. Israeli citizens do not like rockets and mortars and bombs hurled at them and regardless at how disproportionate the violence is, Israeli citizens still do not like rockets and mortars and bombs hurled at them. If the Palestinian leadership could legitimately offer or commit to stopping the violence, (regardless of how disproportionate the violence is) that is absolutely something the Israeli public would want. And would negotiate for. But compromise is necessary and as always a 2 state solution with East Jerusalem and right of return are issues that neither side are willing to compromise on.
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Feb 22, 2017 10:55
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BattleMoose posted:The Palestinians do have something that the Israeli public generally do want and cannot seize by force. Israeli citizens do not like rockets and mortars and bombs hurled at them and regardless at how disproportionate the violence is, Israeli citizens still do not like rockets and mortars and bombs hurled at them. If the Palestinian leadership could legitimately offer or commit to stopping the violence, (regardless of how disproportionate the violence is) that is absolutely something the Israeli public would want. And would negotiate for. Do you need the rocket attack chart posted again? Palestinians went for years without rocket attacks. The Israeli grew bored and decided to bomb Gaza. GaussianCopula posted:Pop quiz: Go gently caress yourself you disingenuous piece of poo poo. Here are some more quotes for you. Who said these? "They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there." "I’ve killed lots of Arabs in my life – and there’s no problem with that." ""Those who are against us, there's nothing to be done – we need to pick up an axe and cut off his head." "There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed." EXTRA BONUS POP QUIZZ: WHO THE gently caress EVER SAID THIS: "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
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Feb 22, 2017 11:45
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Cat Mattress posted:"They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there." First thing I noted is that Israel has a lot more women in power. It's almost like not having a culture of oppressing makes it easier for them to participate in the political debate. Additionally most of those quotes are clearly referring to defending against attackers not to genocide a whole people.
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Feb 22, 2017 12:01
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GaussianCopula posted:First thing I noted is that Israel has a lot more women in power. It's almost like not having a culture of oppressing makes it easier for them to participate in the political debate. Additionally most of those quotes are clearly referring to defending against attackers not to genocide a whole people. Do you define 'defending against attackers' as killing their families?
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Feb 22, 2017 12:14
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Absurd Alhazred posted:The number of votes per seat in these elections was ~30,000. The current coalition has 67 out of 120 seats. You'd need 7 seats taken out to get them even, or ~200,000 voters to change their minds. And that's discounting the inability of the opposition parties to form their own coalition due to perhaps irreconcilable differences, or the tendency of Labor to be "responsible" and join Likud governments, and in practice act as fig leafs to expansionism. This was a very highly-attended election (72%), so there are not that many more people to add to create significant changes. It's almost like it would take some kind of game-changing development to move the minds of those voters and shake up the status quo. Something like unilateral disarmament of Gaza and a commitment by HAMAS and other groups to nonviolence.
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Feb 22, 2017 12:25
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GaussianCopula posted:First thing I noted is that Israel has a lot more women in power. It's almost like not having a culture of oppressing makes it easier for them to participate in the political debate. Additionally most of those quotes are clearly referring to defending against attackers not to genocide a whole people. So are the quotes you dug up. It's like you seem to conveniently forget that we're talking about a people that has been massacred, forcibly displaced, and who are still suffering from oppression and occupation. hakimashou posted:It's almost like it would take some kind of game-changing development to move the minds of those voters and shake up the status quo. Insert rocket_attack_chart.png
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Feb 22, 2017 12:41
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hakimashou posted:It's almost like it would take some kind of game-changing development to move the minds of those voters and shake up the status quo. This argument is so disingenuous. Israel holds all the cards w/r/t power relations with the Palestinians and is actively undermining what a reasonable peace deal would look like. You can't continually push people into a corner like that and expect them to make all the concessions. I'd be supportive/accepting of an Israeli policy of actual short-term military occupations after missile launchings (it is a hard-rear end part of the world after all) but the bait-and-switch that's going on by those in power is so obvious that I can't believe anyone endorsing it is arguing in good faith.
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Feb 22, 2017 12:55
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hakimashou posted:It's almost like it would take some kind of game-changing development to move the minds of those voters and shake up the status quo. It probably wouldn't accomplish much because the moment a more radical group launches an attack, it will be blamed on 'nonviolent' HAMAS and they will look worse than before, duplicitous. The most effective means for Israel to prevent terrorist attacks is security cooperation with effective Palestinian authorities but trying to marginalize and delegitimize the Palestinian authorities will only empower radical elements. The "security guarantees" demanded by Israel would destroy any Palestinian government that accepted them because it would amount to a continuation of occupation but with Israel's hands washed of any responsibility for the territory. Objectively, the most effective chip the Palestinian authority has on the table is the threat to disband itself and end security cooperation which would cause a massive headache for Israel, but it would require a commitment that I don't think the PA currently has. Panzeh fucked around with this message at 13:12 on Feb 22, 2017 |
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Feb 22, 2017 12:58
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Cat Mattress posted:The international community is the only one who can force Israel to compromise. As long as they're blocked from doing so, a viable and lasting peace will be forever impossible.
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Feb 22, 2017 13:36
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Xander77 posted:Please give your examples of times when the international community forced a nation to stop oppressing minority populations? Without cooperation from the left-wing elements within the majority? Germany circa 1945?
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Feb 22, 2017 13:39
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BattleMoose posted:The Palestinians do have something that the Israeli public generally do want and cannot seize by force. Israeli citizens do not like rockets and mortars and bombs hurled at them and regardless at how disproportionate the violence is, Israeli citizens still do not like rockets and mortars and bombs hurled at them. If the Palestinian leadership could legitimately offer or commit to stopping the violence, (regardless of how disproportionate the violence is) that is absolutely something the Israeli public would want. And would negotiate for. More to the point, Israel isn't willing to tolerate a truly independent Palestinian state at all. While the Israeli government in principle supports something that they call a "two-state solution", they've made quite clear that they do not envision this state being truly independent in any way. Netanyahu has made clear that in his so-called "two-state solution", Israel would retain control over Palestine's borders, airspace, and diplomacy, Israel would have the right to send military forces into Palestinian territory at any time for any reason, and Palestine would subject to strict limitations on military power which would amount to little more than an internal security force. Now, if you stop and think about it for a minute, that all sounds pretty much exactly like the current status quo - and that's exactly the intention, and also why Palestinians haven't been particularly interested in Israeli offers. The media and US politicians make a big deal over the words "two-state solution", devoid of context or real understanding, but the devil has always been in the details when it comes to I/P peace negotiations. Xander77 posted:Please give your examples of times when the international community forced a nation to stop oppressing minority populations? Without cooperation from the left-wing elements within the majority? Does the Congo Free State count?
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Feb 22, 2017 15:32
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GreyjoyBastard posted:So can I infer that you are, in fact, against current Israeli policy? If I had a vote I'd vote for Yesh Atid. Absurd Alhazred posted:The number of votes per seat in these elections was ~30,000. The current coalition has 67 out of 120 seats. You'd need 7 seats taken out to get them even, or ~200,000 voters to change their minds. And that's discounting the inability of the opposition parties to form their own coalition due to perhaps irreconcilable differences, or the tendency of Labor to be "responsible" and join Likud governments, and in practice act as fig leafs to expansionism. This was a very highly-attended election (72%), so there are not that many more people to add to create significant changes. Kulanu and YB would join a center coalition and that's 16 seats. All you need to get their votes is for Likud to not finish first and have the first chance at forming a government. Current polls, for what they're worth, have Likud losing seats. Main Paineframe posted:A real two-state solution hasn't been on the table since before Netanyahu became Prime Minister. It was on the table under Olmert. It was literally on the table with the former PM, and will be again with the next PM. Israel is not synonymous with the Likud party, as much as Likud and anti-Zionists would like to make that so.
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Feb 23, 2017 02:58
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Mar 5, 2017 20:55
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Satire is dead, and from its corpse comes the zombified punchline of a Dry Bones parody.
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Mar 5, 2017 20:57
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Mar 5, 2017 22:51
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That lion is loving Zion, OP.
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Mar 5, 2017 22:55
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Can you break it down for people who don't read hebrew please?
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Mar 6, 2017 00:22
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Ultramega posted:Can you break it down for people who don't read hebrew please? It's all about the image. The words are just "50 Years to the Liberation of Jerusalem" and below that "A Uniting, United Jerusalem" Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Mar 6, 2017 |
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Mar 6, 2017 00:28
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I like the use of a picture of a wall with the slogan of uniting. But anyway, they announce the annexation of East Jerusalem for 2067?
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Mar 6, 2017 00:49
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Cat Mattress posted:I like the use of a picture of a wall with the slogan of uniting. They already annexed East Jerusalem in 1980 (after incorporating it into the Jerusalem municipality in 1967).
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Mar 6, 2017 00:51
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Israel starting to free the weed. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/05/world/middleeast/israel-marijuana-benjamin-netanyahu.html
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Mar 6, 2017 00:58
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An Israeli MK: https://mobile.twitter.com/AmiKaufman/status/838420656727420928/video/1
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Mar 6, 2017 09:25
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Miftan posted:An Israeli MK: "Any Palestinian who joins the IDF can vote" is to me, despite being literally Starship Troopers, an acceptable improvement to the status quo. It also won't happen.
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Mar 6, 2017 09:28
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GreyjoyBastard posted:"Any Palestinian who joins the IDF can vote" is to me, despite being literally Starship Troopers, an acceptable improvement to the status quo. That's what he's counting on
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Mar 6, 2017 09:29
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Would the IDF even recruit Palestinians? I thought they already refuse to recruit Israeli Arabs.
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Mar 6, 2017 09:30
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Miftan posted:That's what he's counting on Yeah, he gets to sound reasonable and advocate a solution that, if somehow passed, would cause Likud's entire delegation to immediately vomit out the wasps that reside in their human skinsuits, whereupon the wasps would sting him to death.
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Mar 6, 2017 09:33
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Zanzibar Ham posted:Would the IDF even recruit Palestinians? I thought they already refuse to recruit Israeli Arabs. This will never happen precisely because of this reason. They would bank on it never happening because the Palestinians hate Israel, but it's obviously a major security risk as well so they would never even legally give them the option.
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Mar 6, 2017 11:23
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Zanzibar Ham posted:Would the IDF even recruit Palestinians? I thought they already refuse to recruit Israeli Arabs. Miftan posted:This will never happen precisely because of this reason. They would bank on it never happening because the Palestinians hate Israel, but it's obviously a major security risk as well so they would never even legally give them the option. Some time ago a rather remarkable article comparing the treatment of national minorities within and outside the IDF and within the British empire (fighting Irish, hot-blooded Sikh and Gurkas) was posted in an I/P thread, and I couldn't find it since. Shame, since it made some very good points.
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Mar 6, 2017 12:58
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Every Israeli politician who believes they can create a permanent apartheid state after annexing all of the West Bank and Gaza needs to be charged with treason as the only long term result can be that at some point the restrictions will be overturned and than the Jews are fuuuucked. The best solution would actually be a tri-state solution, with Jordan and Egypt annexing the West Bank and Gaza, but they will never be this stupid, so two-state it is.
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Mar 6, 2017 13:29
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What if neither party gets Jerusalem and it becomes a theocratic city state with a religious council given seats evenly between Jewish, Christian and Muslim citizens? That way the Catholic Church can be the mediating party between the two hostile factions.
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Mar 6, 2017 13:38
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Demiurge4 posted:What if neither party gets Jerusalem and it becomes a theocratic city state with a religious council given seats evenly between Jewish, Christian and Muslim citizens? That way the Catholic Church can be the mediating party between the two hostile factions. You mean the Jack Ryan/Tom Clancy solution with the Swiss Guard patrolling Jerusalem? Good luck with that.
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Mar 6, 2017 13:43
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Zanzibar Ham posted:Would the IDF even recruit Palestinians? I thought they already refuse to recruit Israeli Arabs. They accept Israeli Arabs, they just exempt them from the draft. It'd likely be a different story with Palestinians, though, since Israel doesn't even allow them to convert to Judaism: the oversight committee that regulates non-citizen conversions to Judaism in Israel has openly stated that it rejects all "foreign workers, infiltrators, Palestinians, and people who are in the country illegally". Demiurge4 posted:What if neither party gets Jerusalem and it becomes a theocratic city state with a religious council given seats evenly between Jewish, Christian and Muslim citizens? That way the Catholic Church can be the mediating party between the two hostile factions. Absolutely no one would be happy with that, and there's no player with both the will and the influence to enforce that solution. A lot of people get very angry about tiny things that happen in Jerusalem and particularly the holy sites, and it's unlikely the Catholic Church has either the power or the inclination to play kingmaker anyway.
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Mar 6, 2017 15:22
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Xander77 posted:Isn't at least one of you Israeli? The IDF does not conscript Israeli Arabs / Bedouins, but it does allow them to volunteer for military service. I am. I served with bedouin, Arabs and druze. The point remains valid that the IDF will never allow Palestinians into its ranks. Hell, the IDF might but the politicians wouldn't, and Miki Zohar claiming otherwise is just stupid. The whole point is to theoretically give them equal rights, but only if they serve in the IDF, which nobody will allow.
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Mar 6, 2017 15:35
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You know stuff is hosed when a Clancy book happening for real would be an improvement.
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Mar 6, 2017 16:36
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I'm also Israeli, I'm just an IDF Dummy as I never served.  (kinda glad I didn't in retrospect, but at the time the way they told me I was exempt felt very insulting)
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Mar 6, 2017 17:07
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Netanyahu was questioned by police at his home again today. That's the 4th time. They're saying the investigation should be over soon, and then they'll decide to either drop the case or press charges.
Volkerball fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Mar 6, 2017 |
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Mar 6, 2017 19:05
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Main Paineframe posted:Absolutely no one would be happy with that, and there's no player with both the will and the influence to enforce that solution. A lot of people get very angry about tiny things that happen in Jerusalem and particularly the holy sites, and it's unlikely the Catholic Church has either the power or the inclination to play kingmaker anyway. Also is the MK trying to make some clever point that Palestinians hate Israel so much they will refuse to serve in the IDF and thus apartheid will be perfectly workable and legitimate? Cause I mean I also think a 1 state solution is going to be the outcome, I'm now thinking that either means 1) massive, gradual, ethnic cleansing getting non-Jewish Israelis down to manageable numbers to the point where they can be allowed full citizenship rights. 2) Apartheid style governance that is slowly transformed into full rights for Arab majority a la South Africa. I can imagine it only working if you saw a gradual expansion of rights and protections with things like an intermediate step of creating an Arab Knesset as a second house that begins as essentially a talking shop and popular pressure sees it getting expanded into effectively a second house before a removal of ethnic/religious restrictions on sitting in either house. I don't see this resulting in any kind of remedy for economic or social disparities as we can see in countries like Malaysia where even with legal support, historical economic disparities between ethnic groups are still very much present. I don't see Palestinians getting much in the way of legal protections or assistance.
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Mar 6, 2017 23:36
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https://secure.avaaz.org/en/stop_the_bulldozers_loc/ Anybody knows what is Bibi's pretext to send the bulldozers this time?
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Mar 7, 2017 00:30
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because he's a racist gently caress who pops a tent at the idea of a palestinian woman miscarrying while being held up at a checkpoint.
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Mar 7, 2017 02:13
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