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Xealot posted:For sure, I'm being mostly hyperbolic. I'm just reacting to the conservative argument I've heard a lot of recently, that "anti-Trump" bias is somehow the moral equivalent of "anti-Obama" bias. Basically, that the reactionary rejection of ObamaCare is no different than Trump protests happening right now, as two forms of pure tribalism. But obviously the former was heavily influenced by beliefs about Obama's identity as a Kenyan Muslim communist who's some kind of Manchurian candidate. Not by any particular statement about his policy goals or actual history. The true tell is that if you time traveled back to 2009/2010, and asked why the people who hated Obama hated him so much, most of the answers you got would cluster in the neighborhood of Obama being untrustworthy because he isn't like them, and there's just something about him. Obviously a great many people would also posit some sort of ideological beef with Obama, though most of them would be worried about his Socialistic and Islamic dogma. Conversely if you ask someone why they hate Trump, they'll largely give you examples of things he's actually done or said that they hate. Admittedly you will also get a lot of call outs to fascism as a catch all, but those claiming that as their reason will also tend to have far more examples of why they think that than the simple gut feeling that Obama evoked in his detractors. The most common adjective for Obama would probably be Arrogant, while the most common adjective for Trump would be rear end in a top hat.
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Mar 2, 2017 04:38
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Gyges posted:
I can think of many worse adjectives that I've seen used for Trump, that are also objectively TRUE, like "Mentally-unstable" or "sexist". It's funny that people would call Obama Arrogant. That's such a see-through racist kind of thing to say, because I can't remember a single time where he was anything but EXTRA-humble and even funny about it. It smacks of how women aren't allowed to be as aggressive at work because they become bitches. The black man shouldn't clearly show off his intelligence and knowledge-base because he's just rubbing our faces in it.. I didn't really want to believe so many people were still racist at the time, but I really can't see how all the hate had another other basis now.
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Mar 5, 2017 01:37
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Gyges posted:Admittedly you will also get a lot of call outs to fascism as a catch all, but those claiming that as their reason will also tend to have far more examples of why they think that than the simple gut feeling that Obama evoked in his detractors. The main thing being that there's a laundry list of things that define fascism and Trump and his cabinet and their constituents embody basically all of them.
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Mar 5, 2017 02:04
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I'm still not quite buying that Trump isn't a high-functioning illiterate.
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Mar 5, 2017 02:39
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precision posted:I'm still not quite buying that Trump isn't a high-functioning illiterate. I feel like calling him illiterate is unfair to people with actual learning disabilities. They can't read because they have actual mental difficulties processing writing. Trump is perfectly capable of reading but chooses not to. That is worse.
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Mar 5, 2017 02:44
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The Cheshire Cat posted:I feel like calling him illiterate is unfair to people with actual learning disabilities. They can't read because they have actual mental difficulties processing writing. Trump is perfectly capable of reading but chooses not to. That is worse. That's totally unfair, Trump reads Fox infographics every day.
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Mar 5, 2017 02:56
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Gyges posted:That's totally unfair, Trump reads Fox infographics every day. "Hey Spicey, whazzat say? I totally can read it but I like making you read stuff at me 'cuz you gotta easy job and totally not because I don't feel like wearin' my glasses. I'm the best reader, just ask Frederick Douglass."
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Mar 5, 2017 03:14
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Dragonrah posted:Oh it's not that. I wanted to post a hug smiley but we don't have one? This one?  Invalid Validation posted:Not enough to keep cheeto man from being elected. Needed more than a surplus of ~3M, apparently. 62,985,106>65,853,625 
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Mar 5, 2017 06:50
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Atomizer posted:Needed more than a surplus of ~3M, apparently. 62,985,106>65,853,625 The Electoral College is a hell of a drug.
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Mar 5, 2017 06:56
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I could watch the Dalai Lama all day. He's adorable. 
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Mar 6, 2017 05:28
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Oliver's interviews he has to travel to foreign countries for are always good
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Mar 6, 2017 05:30
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welp, off to read about the Dalai Lama so I don't sound like an ignorant jackass if I get accosted in Times Square by an impromptu interview
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Mar 6, 2017 06:55
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A nice change of pace this episode; to focus on another human atrocity that isn't Donald Trump for the whole episode.
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Mar 6, 2017 07:01
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This lama guy doesn't seem like such a bad guy. Maybe china's got this one wrong? 
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Mar 6, 2017 07:45
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Powershift posted:This lama guy doesn't seem like such a bad guy. Maybe china's got this one wrong? Perhaps that Mao guy wasn't quite as nice as they claim. Nah, I can't believe that the Chinese Central Propaganda Department (or Central Publicity Department as it is called nowadays) would lie to anyone.
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Mar 6, 2017 11:02
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404notfound posted:welp, off to read about the Dalai Lama so I don't sound like an ignorant jackass if I get accosted in Times Square by an impromptu interview
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Mar 6, 2017 11:12
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Mental Hospitality posted:A nice change of pace this episode; to focus on another human atrocity that isn't Donald Trump for the whole episode.
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Mar 6, 2017 11:13
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Powershift posted:This lama guy doesn't seem like such a bad guy. Maybe china's got this one wrong? I think there are some legitimate claims of the Dalai Lama having dome some crappy things and Tibet being a lovely place before China got in there. But I think we're also kinda past all that now, what with the entire world having their eyes on the situation. It's not like if Tibet becomes free, everyone would turn a blind eye to any terrible things they'd end up doing.
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Mar 6, 2017 11:59
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Can you elaborate on the bad things he's done? As far as I understood Tibetan monks are largely just to themselves and peaceful Buddhists so I don't see where atrocities have been incurred by them. Especially when you compare to the things the Chinese government have done for decades.
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Mar 6, 2017 14:51
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We can add China to the list of countries John Oliver can't visit. He must of been pretty happy with himself for making him laugh during the interview. Ra Ra Rasputin fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Mar 6, 2017 |
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Mar 6, 2017 15:59
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Servaetes posted:Can you elaborate on the bad things he's done? As far as I understood Tibetan monks are largely just to themselves and peaceful Buddhists so I don't see where atrocities have been incurred by them. Especially when you compare to the things the Chinese government have done for decades. Comparing like the last sentences is dumb though. "Others did worse" is not a good excuse.
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Mar 6, 2017 16:00
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Boris Galerkin posted:Comparing like the last sentences is dumb though. "Others did worse" is not a good excuse. to be fair when talking about occupation forces vs a nationalist movement it kinda is valid. Like, the Dalai Lama is the functional absolute head of a powerful nationalist movement. Like we saw in the interview he clearly could speak out against things like self immolation but he chooses not to because it's a powerful political tool. He's connected to some kinda rough things like Tibetan separatist riots and all and he then distances himself with kinda generic 'well I can't tell them how to live, if they want to riot they will' stuff. Then there's the fact that the Tibet he wants to go back to wasn't exactly a bastion of human dignity for all and all either. Now, this is a talk for far later, mainly after the whole 'get the occupying country out of us' thing, but he does like to call back to the old, enlightened, Tibet when a lot of the peasants and all would maybe disagree with their spiritual king-thing on how enlightened it was. Still, like I said I think it's very valid to say 'he's not a perfect man and maybe has some issues of his own, but the people currently occupying Tibet are a much more oppressive force'.
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Mar 6, 2017 16:14
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The Dalai Lama has said he's not interested in restoring the Tibet that China invaded. The worst thing I could so about him is that he was willing to use violence in his early days before he rebranded himself with a nonviolent image, and the reverence that he receives is in part because of a good PR management. But yeah; he's mostly a chill dude. There's virtually no compelling justification of China's occupation of Tibet beyond geopolitical reasons (natural resources). I kind find it funny now; on top of all the alt-right haters Oliver gets in the YouTube comments, he's now going to get a bunch of crazy Chinese nationalist comments as well. Those might be worse. Echo Chamber fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Mar 6, 2017 |
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Mar 6, 2017 16:29
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Boris Galerkin posted:Comparing like the last sentences is dumb though. "Others did worse" is not a good excuse. Again though I'm just wanting to know what atrocities, or backwards terrible poo poo the Dalai Llama has done that could contrast to my understanding of what communist China has done to its people and neighboring regions. I know communist China has done some incredibly horrible poo poo. Not do much the Dalai Llama who, from my observation is the Buddhist pope but I don't hear anything about his actions. If he basically gives a "well people are gonna do what they're gonna do" it's not as good as condemning things done in his name, I agree. If that's it, it's not on par with a government that does Extremely Bad Things to its people and neighbors. I just wanna know what's bad about the guy, if there is somethin. E: also I'm not insinuating the dude is infallible, because just like the pope or anyone else he's still a human being, just want to know what the gray is Servaetes fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Mar 6, 2017 |
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Mar 6, 2017 18:52
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Servaetes posted:Again though I'm just wanting to know what atrocities, or backwards terrible poo poo the Dalai Llama has done that could contrast to my understanding of what communist China has done to its people and neighboring regions. I know communist China has done some incredibly horrible poo poo. Not do much the Dalai Llama who, from my observation is the Buddhist pope but I don't hear anything about his actions. Comparing him to the Buddhist pope is pretty disrespectful. He's the reincarnation of Avalokitesvara (you might know as Guanyin, or Kannon) the bodhisattva of compassion. Now it's not that this Dalai Lama is bad since he really didn't have that much time as head of the Ganden Phodrang; however, it's more things like this Tatum Girlparts posted:Then there's the fact that the Tibet he wants to go back to wasn't exactly a bastion of human dignity for all and all either. Now, this is a talk for far later, mainly after the whole 'get the occupying country out of us' thing, but he does like to call back to the old, enlightened, Tibet when a lot of the peasants and all would maybe disagree with their spiritual king-thing on how enlightened it was. The other important thing you're doing wrong, servaetes, is attributing a lot of evil to communist China, when there's a pretty rich history of attempting to on and off incorporate Tibet into the Chinese empire dating back to the Yuan dynasty. Though granted, the current "communist" (they're not really communist, haven't been since arguably DXP) regime has a lot to answer for in terms of the atrocities perpetuated since the fifties. All empires are oppressive, dog.
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Mar 6, 2017 19:36
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The Dali Lama is a big Beastie Boys fan
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Mar 6, 2017 19:51
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Servaetes posted:Can you elaborate on the bad things he's done? As far as I understood Tibetan monks are largely just to themselves and peaceful Buddhists so I don't see where atrocities have been incurred by them. Especially when you compare to the things the Chinese government have done for decades. The Dalai Lama was basically the dictator of Tibet before China invaded. And Tibet was rear end-backwards as gently caress so don't think he was all too much of an enlightened one either. That said, none of that justifies the blatant land (read: resource) grab by China.
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Mar 6, 2017 19:57
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What is the situation with the people of Tibet themselves? Are there people there that actually want to stay as part of China? In my head I sort of compare the China/Tibet situation to the UK/Ireland one, and what makes the issue of Northern Ireland so tricky is that there is a fairly significant population of English protestants living there that don't want to leave the UK (well, didn't. Who knows what will happen when they pull the trigger on Brexit). Is there any comparable Chinese national minority in Tibet?
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Mar 6, 2017 20:03
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Orange Devil posted:The Dalai Lama was basically the dictator of Tibet before China invaded. And Tibet was rear end-backwards as gently caress so don't think he was all too much of an enlightened one either. That said, none of that justifies the blatant land (read: resource) grab by China. The current Dalai Lama only officially took up the role at age 15 in 1950 during the Chinese invasion and the country officially became part of China the following year, he didn't get all that much chance to be dictatorial. The previous Dalai Lama had actually done a fair bit to modernise Tibet (when he was actually present, he went into exile twice due to invasions by the British and the Chinese) such as setting up an independent police force, introducing electricity, improving secular education, etc..
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Mar 6, 2017 20:10
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The Cheshire Cat posted:What is the situation with the people of Tibet themselves? Are there people there that actually want to stay as part of China? In my head I sort of compare the China/Tibet situation to the UK/Ireland one, and what makes the issue of Northern Ireland so tricky is that there is a fairly significant population of English protestants living there that don't want to leave the UK (well, didn't. Who knows what will happen when they pull the trigger on Brexit). Is there any comparable Chinese national minority in Tibet? One of the things that started happening during the mid-Qing period was exile of Han Chinese minor offenders into Xinjiang to help incorporate the territory (lit. new frontier) so, it's a common technique of empires. Similarly, Han who have moved to Tibet post the seizure of Tibet are recent migrants and it is the Dalai Lama's contention that the building of the Qingzang railway into Tibet was a means for the PRC to swamp Tibet with migrants; however, only about 8% of Tibet is Han and has Tibetan hukou. That being said, hukou does not account for the Han who basically live in Tibet and maintain residency status elsewhere. For reference, Xinjiang is in much direr straits, being about 40% Han.
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Mar 6, 2017 20:19
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stone cold posted:Comparing him to the Buddhist pope is pretty disrespectful. He's the reincarnation of Avalokitesvara (you might know as Guanyin, or Kannon) the bodhisattva of compassion. To be honest I just kinda figured he was the supreme leader of Buddhism (or at least the region) given folks do stuff in his name, hold him sacred, etc. And nah, most of that stuff soars overhead. I took a few religion classes in college but it was a lot of overviews. Bodhisattva is a good song though But yeah, I know there's good and bad to anything. I don't think this iteration of the Llama compares though.
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Mar 6, 2017 20:28
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Servaetes posted:To be honest I just kinda figured he was the supreme leader of Buddhism (or at least the region) given folks do stuff in his name, hold him sacred, etc. And nah, most of that stuff soars overhead. I took a few religion classes in college but it was a lot of overviews. Bodhisattva is a good song though Well, Ganden Tripa nominally is the head of the Gelug school of Tibetan Buddhism, but historically the power has rested in the hands of Dalai Lama. But also, there's other Buddhism besides Tibetan Buddhism, you've got your Mahayana-Chan, Seon, Zen, etc-your Theravada-iirc derogatorily referred to as 'Hinayana,' Thai Forest, Sri Lankan Buddhism (the longest continuous Buddhist tradition incidentally), etc-and your Vajrayana-Tibetan Buddhism, Shingon, the Tang Mysteries/Chinese esoteric school, etc.
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Mar 6, 2017 22:58
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Gyges posted:The most common adjective for Obama would probably be Arrogant, while the most common adjective for Trump would be rear end in a top hat. Not one but many : "The country has had its share of stupid, lying, impulsive, ignorant, narcissistic, bellicose or unpredictable presidents. But never before has one embodied all of these traits." -Dr. Allen Frances, the guy who made the NPD criteria for the DSM 5. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0262407917303688
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Mar 6, 2017 23:06
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Anyone else really wanna play Far Cry 4 after watching that segment?
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Mar 7, 2017 06:32
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Apoplexy posted:Anyone else really wanna play Far Cry 4 after watching that segment? Given that the best part of that game was dropping bait from the autogyro on helpless campers and hipsters and watching them all die from a bear/honey badger/tiger attack and suffering no karmic penalty for doing so...probably a bad example. BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 07:30 on Mar 7, 2017 |
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Mar 7, 2017 07:26
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I think that hearing someone actually speak to the dalai lama caused that guy to just break his brain, and uncontrollably fantasize about hang-gliding and drugs and throwing grenades at animals. Kind of amazing to observe it in the wild. as it were
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Mar 7, 2017 08:56
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:The current Dalai Lama only officially took up the role at age 15 in 1950 during the Chinese invasion and the country officially became part of China the following year, he didn't get all that much chance to be dictatorial. Yeah, the 13th Dalai-Lama is a fascinating historical figure I wish I could learn more about. The previous 4 Dalai-Lamas all got "sick" and died before they could assume power, leaving the clergy in charge of the regency. But he managed to survive and attempted the first wave of reforms, all the while managing the chaotic diplomacy of the early 20th century. The clergy were all powerful in Tibet and could be quite tyrannical. Torture and slavery and other horrible things. This doesn't excuse the Chinese invasion and subsequent oppression, and any new Tibetan government would be quite different (the Tibetan government in exile is already completely different).
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Mar 7, 2017 10:56
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One thing you do have to consider about pre-Chinese invasion Tibetan governments is that a lot of other nations were pretty lovely in that time period as well. A newly independent Tibet is not going to suddenly revert to early 1900's thinking just because that's what it was like before; the world has moved on. I mean sure, there's a lot of lovely nations NOW, but the difference is that the world cares about that sort of thing now. The Cheshire Cat fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Mar 7, 2017 |
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Mar 7, 2017 16:14
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I've been to McLeod Ganj and the exhibit of the atrocities in Tibet is eye opening and incredibly depressing because nothing will ever be done.
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Mar 8, 2017 08:49
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From the way his face looked during that interview, it seems that John may have gotten a bit sunburned on the walk to see the Dalai Lama.
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Mar 12, 2017 01:46
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