2019-2023 Marine Thread: Maybe the 2017 Army thread with a new coat of paint

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Internet VFW > 2019-2023 Marine Thread: Maybe the 2017 Army thread with a new coat of paint

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bird food bathtub: Aug 9, 2003; College Slice

I'd sign loving everything as E4(P) in a heart beat if it meant avoiding being made a corporal. Holy good god is that ever being made the green weenie's mega bitch. Saw a lot (2) of good men lost to that rank. They were never (sober) the same.

# ? Mar 7, 2017 01:43

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# ? May 9, 2024 21:09

Mustang: Jun 18, 2006; “We don’t really know where this goes — and I’m not sure we really care.”

I'd understand SSG (P) if the guy has been a PSG for a long time as a SSG.

Anyway, I bought a good plate carrier for 50% off and god drat was that a good purchase considering how often I'm wearing one. Weight difference from an IOTV is huge plus it's way easier to move in and around a stryker with a plate carrier.

# ? Mar 7, 2017 02:03

Flying_Crab: Apr 12, 2002

Don't ESAPIs require the soft kevlar to be fully effective?

# ? Mar 7, 2017 02:23

Vahakyla: May 3, 2013

You could wear a super tight PACA-style vest under it, it makes for a cozy combination with more free movement. It's pretty tackleberry though.

# ? Mar 7, 2017 02:25

The Rat: Aug 29, 2004; You will find no one to help you here. Beth DuClare has been dissected and placed in cryonic storage.

DoktorLoken posted:

Don't ESAPIs require the soft kevlar to be fully effective?

Yes. For any plates that aren't built and designated as stand alone, you need soft armor backing in order for it to be fully effective.

# ? Mar 7, 2017 02:28

CHICKEN SHOES: Oct 4, 2002; Slippery Tilde

It's crazy to me that any unit would allow people to run around in a discount plate carrier, especially if deployed

# ? Mar 7, 2017 02:30

UP THE BUM NO BABY: Sep 1, 2011; by Hand Knit

Hillary Clintons Thong posted:

It's crazy to me that any unit would allow people to run around in a discount plate carrier, especially if deployed

My mind is broken by the unprofessional lack of uniformity

# ? Mar 7, 2017 02:33

The Rat: Aug 29, 2004; You will find no one to help you here. Beth DuClare has been dissected and placed in cryonic storage.

My first contract with a private security company in Iraq, they issued airsoft-grade plate carriers with steel plates. I bought my own stuff cause I'm a total gear queer, and felt pretty good about it.

# ? Mar 7, 2017 02:34

CHICKEN SHOES: Oct 4, 2002; Slippery Tilde

It's not the uniformity, it's if there is ever an accident report good loving luck. IDK if its changed but when a dude got hit and disintigrated by an EFP in Iraq the first question on the full casualty report was "Was he wearing eye pro" "Was he wearing IBAS w/ Green plates" or whatever and good luck having to check NO to any of those kind of questions. There's reasons for those kind of rules, the same as if they let people use their own guns and poo poo.

Sure, the issue poo poo may be lovely low quality or whatever, but its a KNOWN quality unlike whatever you're buying at the doomsday prepper store or whatever.

# ? Mar 7, 2017 02:46

Mustang: Jun 18, 2006; “We don’t really know where this goes — and I’m not sure we really care.”

We can't just buy any plate carrier, and it was a sale going on at Tactical Tailor

# ? Mar 7, 2017 02:49

CHICKEN SHOES: Oct 4, 2002; Slippery Tilde

oh if there is like Army Approved ones then that is a different story! I didn't know that was a thing now.

# ? Mar 7, 2017 02:50

A Bad Poster: Sep 25, 2006; Seriously, shut the fuck up.

Yeah, our unit has approved for use plate carriers. Too expensive for me, but at least they're trying.

In more entertaining news, I saw a convoy brief today that involved driving to Yakima by going south to Portland, and then East. Have fun with that drive in those piece of poo poo strykers.

# ? Mar 7, 2017 02:56

Mustang: Jun 18, 2006; “We don’t really know where this goes — and I’m not sure we really care.”

Yeah that's the alternate route that I myself might be taking. The convoys that left today originally were planning on taking the southern route instead due to weather but Snoqualmie pass was opened to oversize vehicles later in the day so they took that one instead.

It's going to suck either way. Do you guys have the new double v hull strykers? They seem to hold up better than the old strykers that I'm pretty sure were from the initial fielding of strykers in the Army.

# ? Mar 7, 2017 03:01

Kaliber: Jun 17, 2005

I thought the only Army approved ones were the soldier plate carrier system ones RFI gives out? I know there's the new MSV that's coming out next year that's pretty cool (If it sucks, I'm sorry. I was one of the testers and gave my input)

# ? Mar 7, 2017 03:02

Mike-o: Dec 25, 2004; Now I'm in your room
And I'm in your bed; Grimey Drawer

Lol gently caress going the Portland route to Yakima. Never had to do it except when I was already out and drinking beers in Leavenworth when the pass got closed and I had to be home the next day. gently caress you if you're still in.

# ? Mar 7, 2017 03:05

A Bad Poster: Sep 25, 2006; Seriously, shut the fuck up.

Yeah, we have the new strykers. I don't know what the difference is between them and the older versions. Hopefully not something to do with reliability, because then I can't imagine how bad they were before.

# ? Mar 7, 2017 03:08

Zeris: Apr 15, 2003; Quality posting direct from my brain to your face holes.

drat and I thought I was pushing it by removing the throat protector and crotch triangle.

# ? Mar 7, 2017 03:21

Woof Blitzer: Dec 29, 2012; [-]

That reminds me of an SFC having an aneurism that I had rolled my sleeves up. While in DCUs. At JRTC.

# ? Mar 7, 2017 03:23

Mustang: Jun 18, 2006; “We don’t really know where this goes — and I’m not sure we really care.”

A Bad Poster posted:

Yeah, we have the new strykers. I don't know what the difference is between them and the older versions. Hopefully not something to do with reliability, because then I can't imagine how bad they were before.

The old ones I'm pretty sure were from the Army's initial stryker fielding and had sat in the motorpool doing nothing through multiple deployments. I know my unit's strykers had a lot of water damage when they got back late 2013/early 2014 from Afghanistan.

We've only done one YTC rotation since having the new ones and they definitely hold up better than the old ones did on the way to YTC.

It doesn't help that mechanics are only just now learning how to fix strykers since the General Dynamics contract meant that it was GD almost exclusively working on strykers until relatively recently, at least from what I understand anyway.

# ? Mar 7, 2017 03:30

A Bad Poster: Sep 25, 2006; Seriously, shut the fuck up.

The water damage thing explains why they're so anal about the tarps. I know our mechanics have been pretty good at working on our trucks. Got to watch them change out an engine because some idiot put coolant in where the engine oil goes. $146,000 oopsie there.

# ? Mar 7, 2017 03:35

Mike-o: Dec 25, 2004; Now I'm in your room
And I'm in your bed; Grimey Drawer

Mustang posted:

The old ones I'm pretty sure were from the Army's initial stryker fielding and had sat in the motorpool doing nothing through multiple deployments. I know my unit's strykers had a lot of water damage when they got back late 2013/early 2014 from Afghanistan.

We've only done one YTC rotation since having the new ones and they definitely hold up better than the old ones did on the way to YTC.

It doesn't help that mechanics are only just now learning how to fix strykers since the General Dynamics contract meant that it was GD almost exclusively working on strykers until relatively recently, at least from what I understand anyway.

Yeah, 2008-2011 timeframe that I was at Lewis running strikers, basically anything barely into the level 2 maintenance zone was handed off to GD.

# ? Mar 7, 2017 05:36

Naked Bear: Apr 15, 2007; Boners was recorded before a studio audience that was alive!

The double-V ones are more or less the same as the older ones, as I remember. This might sound stupidly obvious, but their condition just boils down to maintenance. Some of the flat-bottom trucks we had in garrison were really solid and some were steaming piles of poo poo that caught fire, and the double-V ones we had while deployed were no different. The one I had had a really wonky engine that wimped out as soon as it got going just barely fast enough to shift into sixth. Slowest truck in the troop by a measurable margin, what the gently caress.

# ? Mar 7, 2017 06:19

Wasabi the J: Jan 23, 2008; MOM WAS RIGHT

Woof Blitzer posted:

That reminds me of an SFC having an aneurism that I had rolled my sleeves up. While in DCUs. At JRTC.

There was one glorious army day when we rolled up our sleeves in Africa.

Then commander's discretion came along and killed everyone's fun.

# ? Mar 7, 2017 07:01

Naked Bear: Apr 15, 2007; Boners was recorded before a studio audience that was alive!

The pipe dream gains some traction: beards in uniform???

tl;dr: Everybody knows that hair can prevent proper sealing of the existing M40/42 promasks. There exist masks that will work with a beard, but cost $$$. A good seal can still be had with a well-kept and trimmed beard, and this is still being studied by the Army. It could be a possibility at some point in the future.

https://www.armytimes.com/articles/the-army-could-let-soldiers-grow-beards-no-seriously

Army Times posted:

The Army could let soldiers grow beards. No, seriously.

The old adage is true: Ask (and ask and ask and ask) and you shall receive.

The Army is in the midst of a study to determine whether it can safely allow soldiers to wear beards, multiple officials have confirmed to Army Times.

Soldiers have been discussing the idea behind closed doors and in open forums for years, but the push to research the possibilities and make a decision really picked up earlier this year, according to the Army G-1 uniform policy sergeant major.

"It's more driven from the religious accommodations group," said Sgt. Maj. Anthony Moore, referring to a working group that made the recommendations that informed the Army's authorization of beards for Sikh men in uniform.

"Soldiers would ask here and there, but it's gained traction since the Army directive for religious accommodations," he said in a Feb. 28 phone interview.

When the working group convened last year to talk beards and turbans, officials expanded the conversation to include hijabs and dreadlocks, Sergeant Major of the Army Dan Dailey told Army Times earlier this year. Those accommodations were all later authorized in a new directive.

"They said, okay, if we're going to do religious accommodations, we have to be inclusive," Dailey said in a January interview.

That discussion led to the idea of allowing beards in general.

"I'm not opposed to having a beard," Dailey said. "I've socialized this with several people, including [Army Chief of Staff Gen. Mark Milley] � how do we do that to maintain standards? I think that we have to continue that study."

Once the study is complete, the results will be discussed by Dailey's senior enlisted counsel and briefed to the chief of staff of the Army.

If leadership decides to go forward, an update to AR 670-1 would eventually have to be signed off by the secretary of the Army.

"Authorizing the wear of beards in the Army, in addition to approved religious accommodations policy, is a topic that soldiers have inquired about recently across the force," Dailey said March 2 in a follow-up statement. "As of now, there are no plans to change the policy. Army leaders and researchers are currently reviewing the wear of beards by soldiers in the Army. Any potential change in policy will be made with careful consideration to the professionalism, standards, discipline, readiness and safety of all of our soldiers."

Why, or why not?

Dailey likened the popularity of beards to tattoos, jokingly calling it "a trending phenomenon."

Tattoos, along with women's hairstyles, have been at the center of major uniform shifts in the past few years, largely based on demand from soldiers themselves.

Beards, the next frontier, have been banned in all but a few corners of the military since the dawn of chemical warfare and issued gas masks during World War I.

For most of the 20th century, clean-shaven faces were preferred in the civilian world as well, so it wasn't much of an issue.

When facial hair made a comeback in the 1970s, then-Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Elmo Zumwalt changed the Navy's regulations to reflect the times.

The other services held fast, however. In fact, the Army went in the opposite direction, doing away with its facial hair exemption for Sikh soldiers in 1984, the same year the Navy re-banned beards.

That was that until the Global War on Terror, when leadership discovered that special operations forces could blend in better with the local population while deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan if they sported full beards.

But as that image of the terrorist-crushing operator took hold in a big way, popular culture in the civilian world once again also embraced a full face of hair.

Both Dailey and his predecessor routinely fielded questions at town hall meetings about bringing back the beard, but there was always a catch � the gas mask.

"A lot of it has been driven by the fact that the mask has been shown, through tests, not to seal properly with facial hair," Moore said. "Right now they're still running more tests to see how much facial hair an individual can have before the mask gets impeded for safety."

The other piece is tradition, or, specifically, the iconic image of the clean-shaven American service member.

"I'm not against beards, but I do have what I believe should be the perception of the American people of the United States Army soldier," Dailey said. "I believe we should represent, in their eyes, what they think their soldiers should represent."

That feeling is shared among a lot of old-school soldiers.

"Younger soldiers may see no problem with beards. More traditional soldiers like myself may have issues with them," Moore said. "I'm sure that will play some part in it, but that won't be the overwhelming factor."

The research

The Army has studied beards and gas masks more than once in recent years, but the test last fall for the religious accommodations working group came to the same conclusion as its predecessors.

"Our findings were that the articles of faith degraded the negative pressure respirators," said Lamar Garrett, field element chief at the Army Research Laboratory. "When the mask is designed, it's designed to fit the individual without any obstruction."

Back in October, ARL gathered up 90 men and women � mostly civilians, with a few airmen � and divided them into five groups for testing.

One group wore personal protective gear with their hair in regs, while another did a wear test with a beard, with long hair tied up in an under-turban, with a hijab, and with hair that had more than two inches of bulk when measured from the scalp.

The tests included wearing the standard issue M50 Joint Service General Purpose Mask and the Army Combat Helmet, as well as the top from the Joint Service Lightweight Integrated Suit Technology kit.

They also tested out the Level A protection equipment worn by chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear and explosives soldiers. In the end, no one with a beard could get a good seal, Garrett said.

"The baseline folks passed," he said. "Everyone else degraded in some form or another."

But the religious accommodations group still pushed through with the Sikh beard exemption, with the caveat that soldiers will have to be clean shaven if they want to serve in a CBRNE unit.

"If we really wanted to do some serious analysis, we could look at what was the degradation of an individual with a beard that's an inch-and-a-half, two inches, etc.," Garrett said.

Now, that research has moved on to the Natick Soldier Research Development & Engineering Center, where a team is testing beards and religious headgear as well.

"We are investigating the feasibility of wearing the Advanced Combat Helmet with beards, along with hijabs, bulk hair, and turbans, in the context of religious accommodation," said Shalli Sherman, who manages Integrated Protection Test Methods at NSRDEC.

The team is currently testing the helmet's fit to determine whether its inner padding needs to be altered for a good fit, then test that new configuration for performance under impact.

"The helmet fit assessment is nearly complete, and the blunt/ballistic testing is set to begin within the next few weeks and expected to run through June," Sherman said.

There's also a possibility that the Army could field new masks that work better with some facial hair.

A mask like that is currently issued to Army special operators, Moore said, but its high cost isn't feasible for issuing to conventional troops.

"The assistant secretary of the Army (acquisition, logistics and technology) will conduct additional testing of existing equipment to determine whether any product alternative exists and provide a plan to acquire protective masks for bearded individuals," Army spokesman Wayne Hall told Army Times.

What if

In his travels, Dailey said, he's asked members of scruffier militaries how they reconcile gas masks and beards.

The top enlisted soldier in Norway had a bit of a hack.

"I said, 'so what do you do?' He said, 'I have to be able to seal my mask. So if you look at my beard, it's all shaved under here,'" Dailey said, explaining that the soldier kept his beard closely shaven to his jawline to leave enough bare skin for the mask to cling to.

He asked the same question of an Israeli soldier.

"He said, 'I'm required to shave it when I go into combat,'" Dailey recalled.

If leadership approves of the wear-test results, the next steps would be to determine length, bulk and shape of facial hair, along with � for example � whether it would need to be shaved on deployment.

"That's a probability," Moore said. "While they're doing the test, they're also looking at some of those options. If you decided to allow beards, could we have people shave them if we needed to? All that's under review right now."

No decisions are imminent, he added, but beards are on a list of soldier requests the uniform office is considering right now, along with nail polish and earrings in the Army Combat Uniform.

"There's a large desire for soldiers now to want to grow beards," Dailey said. "And we're not avoiding the conversation. I think we're going to get to it."

# ? Mar 7, 2017 21:42

redneck nazgul: Apr 25, 2013

Dailey's relaxing of the tattoo rule and adamant "No, we're not changing the PT test" conveniently masked the force-shaping policies that were being used to thin out mid-career NCOs, so my question is what new policy is this hiding?

# ? Mar 7, 2017 21:49

boop the snoot: Jun 3, 2016

No more dip

# ? Mar 7, 2017 22:03

Woof Blitzer: Dec 29, 2012; [-]

TBeats posted:

No more dip

Mutiny

# ? Mar 7, 2017 22:04

A Bad Poster: Sep 25, 2006; Seriously, shut the fuck up.

Mandate that all spitters must have lids at the least.

# ? Mar 7, 2017 22:29

Wasabi the J: Jan 23, 2008; MOM WAS RIGHT

A Bad Poster posted:

Mandate that all spitters must have lids at the least.

# ? Mar 7, 2017 22:51

Kung Fu Fist Fuck: Aug 9, 2009

Naked Bear posted:

The pipe dream gains some traction: beards in uniform???

tl;dr: Everybody knows that hair can prevent proper sealing of the existing M40/42 promasks. There exist masks that will work with a beard, but cost $$$. A good seal can still be had with a well-kept and trimmed beard, and this is still being studied by the Army. It could be a possibility at some point in the future.

https://www.armytimes.com/articles/the-army-could-let-soldiers-grow-beards-no-seriously

i think youll find that most warrior cultures had sick beards :human being:

# ? Mar 7, 2017 23:41

not caring here: Feb 22, 2012; blazemastah 2 dry 4 u

This will basically out anyone who is only capable of growing a whispy pube stache, and a patchy trailer park meth beard.

As you SHOULD be outed.

# ? Mar 7, 2017 23:42

EBB: Feb 15, 2005

not caring here posted:

This will basically out anyone who is only capable of growing a whispy pube stache, and a patchy trailer park meth beard.

As you SHOULD be outed.

Man I shave my shame off every day no need to be harsh

# ? Mar 7, 2017 23:45

psydude: Apr 1, 2008

The gas mask excuse was always a flimsy one because if that's the case, just make people loving shave in the field and keep their facial hair trimmed in garrison.

# ? Mar 7, 2017 23:48

Aranan: May 21, 2007; Release the Kraken

psydude posted:

The gas mask excuse was always a flimsy one because if that's the case, just make people loving shave in the field and keep their facial hair trimmed in garrison.

Just like contacts/glasses.

# ? Mar 8, 2017 00:14

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

What if every other day I "plan to grow a beard" then change my mind. I generally like being clean shaven but it's nice to skip days here and there.

# ? Mar 8, 2017 00:17

boop the snoot: Jun 3, 2016

mlmp08 posted:

What if every other day I "plan to grow a beard" then change my mind. I generally like being clean shaven but it's nice to skip days here and there.

Then you should reenlist.

# ? Mar 8, 2017 00:19

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

TBeats posted:

Then you should reenlist.

Indef noble here. Literally the worst.

# ? Mar 8, 2017 00:20

Vahakyla: May 3, 2013

On current deployments, aren't shavers on a quicker access than gas masks?

# ? Mar 8, 2017 00:59

psydude: Apr 1, 2008

Vahakyla posted:

On current deployments, aren't shavers on a quicker access than gas masks?

You still deploy with it. It just sits at the bottom of your duffel bag for 10 months.

# ? Mar 8, 2017 01:05

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# ? May 9, 2024 21:09

Vahakyla: May 3, 2013

That's what I mean. In case the masks are ever dug out, you can just shave on the way to your duffel bag. It seems like a bullshit excuse, it's not like people are in full MOPP-preparedness out there nonstop just waiting to fight in gas.

# ? Mar 8, 2017 01:23

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Internet VFW > 2019-2023 Marine Thread: Maybe the 2017 Army thread with a new coat of paint

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